[Ftscustm]

Originally Posted by titoon29

Agreed Ftscustm, we love innovation here. What I personally don't like hence my posts, is to attach it to biased numbers in order to sell it. We should be able to like it for what it is, a prototype, and not because it actually make 10,000 lettuce heads, which are 8 times lighter than actual "classic" lettuce heads, if you know what i mean



Hey sprinkl, I guess they gotta make some $$$, which they wouldn' t if they were selling a greenhouse that actually use the sun as you said !



Hey OGEvilgenius, thanks for your comment

I am indeed very aware of the energy needed to make solar cells.
It is quite a bit, talking about immense, well I don' t really agree with that word.
As far as I know, at the moment the energy payback for a solar panel is about 2-3 years.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science...64032112006478
It means that it will take 2 to 3 years for the solar panel on your roof to return the energy that was used to make it. Then, it is "free" energy from the sun for the rest of the life of the panel, which should be about 15 years minimum.

In no case I was advocating its uses in that indoor farm case, which I stated earlier is a total waste of energy, I was answering to the OP which was asking about solar, to develop why it is not really appropriate in that case.

I agree with you, solar is not the answer to our energy concerns, the answer will lie in stopping wasting so much energy. Then maybe, we can use a combination of renewable energies to sustain ourselves So for instance, let' s stop thinking that it is ok to use 12 kWh to produce a kg of lettuce, or to use the sun to transform its energy to electricity than re transform it into lighting for growing large scale, with all the losses involved with each step to transform the energy, and the embeded energy required to manufacture the appliances needed for this "farm" .

We are on the same page, I just need to explain my thinking a little further: Of my experience of the Japanese people, in particular in Tokyo and that was about 25 years ago now; is ancient knowledge is unlocked there, informing an understanding of the world through science at its very cutting edge. Japan has a massive population and very little land mass. People sleep in rooms just like the lettuce. The most organised and respectful culture I have had the pleasure of meeting. To overcome the impossible, you must first start with the improbable, I feel. To convert an abandoned Earth killer into purpose and hope takes more strength than one man, or woman: United strength, just likes ours here at I.C.
What I am saying is that this cost, the planet can tolerate in transition to something better..

[titoon29]

Hey Ftscustm,

Thanks for developing a little more !
Well i agree with japanese being at the cutting edge of science. As well as philosophy. And their culture is full of awesomeness for sure !

So that probably isn't a coincidence that Masanobu Fukuoka, a pioneer in natural farming, comes from there. If you like japanese culture, and interested in farming, I cannot recommend highly enough that you read his book, the one-straw revolution. It will get you deep in the universe of respectful farming with nature, and zen philosophy. A life changing book for some of my friends.
Also no coincidence that Teikei, a system of community-supported agriculture, is japanese, and the origin of these community-supported systems that are growing all over the world.

Now regarding this "farm", unfortunately and despite the low availability of land in japan, I still cannot believe in this technology. As I made the demonstration earlier, in term of energy, it does not make sense not to use directly the sun. Except if you rely on fossil fuels such as nuclear ( which I think you probably know what japanese do think of it now, esp the farmers from fukushima ), or fossil fuels ( which are not really a reliable long term solution for producing food anymore ).

Now talking about vertical farming, that's for sure one part of the answer. Maybe supplementing a bit with LED why not ?

But falling into the arguments of a pure biologist such as the inventor, that obviously cannot really see much further than thinking that robots should grow our food, and even talking about being sustainable, I call that green washing and that tend to piss me off. Food systems are a complex issue to study, and people like this japanese black sheep making so much shortcuts in their argumentation just to promote their business are not helping promoting knowledge in my opinion. The journalists that rewrite articles neither

Original quote

The LEDs last longer and consume 40 percent less power than fluorescent lights

become

The statistics for this incredibly successful indoor farming endeavor in Japan are staggering: 25,000 square feet producing 10,000 heads of lettuce per day (...)with 40% less power

Oh and another thing, basically what you called an abandoned Earth killer, or semi conductor factory I guess, is actually the factory where LED are produced...

In any case, great talking about this and thanks for sharing your opinion, that s the way we will move forward.

[hush]

Well I find this to be an inspirational business plan, personally. I've considered doing something similar to this myself and they are demonstrating that it certainly can be done. Especially in hugely congested urban areas like Hong Kong.

[Ftscustm]

Originally Posted by titoon29

Hey Ftscustm,

Thanks for developing a little more !
Well i agree with japanese being at the cutting edge of science. As well as philosophy. And their culture is full of awesomeness for sure !

So that probably isn't a coincidence that Masanobu Fukuoka, a pioneer in natural farming, comes from there. If you like japanese culture, and interested in farming, I cannot recommend highly enough that you read his book, the one-straw revolution. It will get you deep in the universe of respectful farming with nature, and zen philosophy. A life changing book for some of my friends.
Also no coincidence that Teikei, a system of community-supported agriculture, is japanese, and the origin of these community-supported systems that are growing all over the world.

Now regarding this "farm", unfortunately and despite the low availability of land in japan, I still cannot believe in this technology. As I made the demonstration earlier, in term of energy, it does not make sense not to use directly the sun. Except if you rely on fossil fuels such as nuclear ( which I think you probably know what japanese do think of it now, esp the farmers from fukushima ), or fossil fuels ( which are not really a reliable long term solution for producing food anymore ).

Now talking about vertical farming, that's for sure one part of the answer. Maybe supplementing a bit with LED why not ?

But falling into the arguments of a pure biologist such as the inventor, that obviously cannot really see much further than thinking that robots should grow our food, and even talking about being sustainable, I call that green washing and that tend to piss me off. Food systems are a complex issue to study, and people like this japanese black sheep making so much shortcuts in their argumentation just to promote their business are not helping promoting knowledge in my opinion. The journalists that rewrite articles neither

Original quote


become



Oh and another thing, basically what you called an abandoned Earth killer, or semi conductor factory I guess, is actually the factory where LED are produced...

In any case, great talking about this and thanks for sharing your opinion, that s the way we will move forward.

Oh what a true joy to meet you! To challenge ones personal thinking can only be done in the company of those we respect. We share a love for this plant and the worlds we create in her honour: Do we do this at any cost? Well, I burn a disgusting amount of juice running an indoor garden and long for the days when I can drag my babies out of the closet and into the sunlight, so they may smell the wonder of nature as was intended.
I shall read as you have instructed and catch up with you when I am informed...

[stoned-trout]

looks like they just modified fodder trays.....nothing new really,

[titoon29]

Originally Posted by hush

Well I find this to be an inspirational business plan, personally. I've considered doing something similar to this myself and they are demonstrating that it certainly can be done. Especially in hugely congested urban areas like Hong Kong.

Hi hi !

Even in congested urban areas, the sun does exists. Check out vertical growing on rooftops, loads of great ideas ! And much cheaper for sure than LED lightings.

I'm fine with people making money on any idea, what i am not fine with is trying to say it's green when it's not ! If someone doesn't care about the environment, so be it. If this someone is using "science" and his pseudo degrees to give biased arguments so people think it s actual green, then i don't think it's fair.

So if that's a business you wanna get into, go for it mate! But if you re trying to sell it as green, be careful I'll be around to check your facts

Though considering the price of led, not sure that you could actually have any chance, except if you own a led factory... Consider we don't even grow weed under led because it's way to expensive.. I'm too tired right now to get deeper into that plan though, but i hope you re technically aware on all their numbers, because to me it does more and more look like a scam...

Originally Posted by Ftscustm

Oh what a true joy to meet you! To challenge ones personal thinking can only be done in the company of those we respect. We share a love for this plant and the worlds we create in her honour: Do we do this at any cost? Well, I burn a disgusting amount of juice running an indoor garden and long for the days when I can drag my babies out of the closet and into the sunlight, so they may smell the wonder of nature as was intended.
I shall read as you have instructed and catch up with you when I am informed..

IThanks for you comment man, really appreciated ! Indeed whatever our differences, I think exchange is always constructive if done properly I do also grow indoor, wish the law would allow me to move outside though ! Please take your time to read and comment I ll be around

Originally Posted by stoned-trout

looks like they just modified fodder trays.....nothing new really,

Hey stoned trout, i am not much aware of the vertical growing technology, but if you say they didn't invent anything, then i believe you... So much for a new revolutionary technology huh!

[Ftscustm]

[quote=titoon29;6774057]Hi hi !



IThanks for you comment man, really appreciated ! Indeed whatever our differences, I think exchange is always constructive if done properly I do also grow indoor, wish the law would allow me to move outside though ! Please take your time to read and comment I ll be around

Thank you for the breathing space afforded in my catching up on the essentials of my gapped knowledge, though I am quite consumed and can promise nothing. Keep cracking the whip, you are right and proper in your thinking, and I only playing devil advocate to mask the soon to be eroded ignorance. I adore fire and would delightfully extinguish this life in the Sun's molten heart. Like Icarus I wish to sore to her heights, only to crash and burn in her glory. She is life and giveth life also....dragged our arses out of the mud to boot.

[Ftscustm]

Quote: So that probably isn't a coincidence that Masanobu Fukuoka, a pioneer in natural farming, comes from there. If you like japanese culture, and interested in farming, I cannot recommend highly enough that you read his book, the one-straw revolution. It will get you deep in the universe of respectful farming with nature, and zen philosophy. A life changing book for some of my friends.

Oh my God, I have just fallen in Love with a Penguin?! How on earth did you see in my head from your position there? The One straw revolution and Sewing seeds in the dessert winging their way in my ever eager direction: You have changed me and I cannot tell you how exciting that is for me. I sew by the moon and suck my seeds already, still this...!

[sprinkl]

Something we also need to take into consideration though is how the lettuce heads are grown traditionally. Is it close to the city? Is it shipped in? Energy costs of transport and distribution are highly overlooked. Long distance and time means good food gets wasted.
Is it grown in intensive agriculture, most likely? All lettuce, huge fields or greenhouses, abundant use of chemical fertilizers that run off into nearby rivers, lots of pesticide spraying...
Highly populated areas mean high prices for land.

As lighting becomes more efficient and electricity greener, I see this becoming the norm. No more Sugar Snap beans from Kenia or Pineapples from godknowswhere, everything produced locally in possibly tropical climates.
Though still foolish to leave out the sun. Greenhouses with additional lightning and climate control exist longer than today and that's kind of what this guy is failing at reinventing...

[OGEvilgenius]

Originally Posted by titoon29

Hey OGEvilGenius,

Let' s talk hemp, since I think this would also be interesting.

Sorry for all the following numbers, they are needed, but the conclusion will be made more simple to understand for those who want to go straight to the point

According to https://www.votehemp.com/PDF/The_Cas...iofuel2008.pdf

305 kg of ethanol can be produced with one hectare of hemp
with a density of about 0,8, it would make about (305/0.8) 380 L/hectare yield.
A Liter of ethanol contains about 23.5 MJ/L or 6.5 kWh / L

With a specialy designed engine to produce electricty, we could expect about 80% energy recovery ( can' t really find easy source on that so I doubled the efficiency of diesel engine)

So for a Liter of ethanol, we could get about 5.2 Kwh.
Hence for an hectare about (5.2 * 380 ) 2000 kWh, or 2 MWh usable.

Let' s consider a beautiful climate, where you could grow 4 crops a year.
That would lead to 4*2 = 8 MWh / hectare / year, or about 0.7 MWh / hectare / month

If this hemp was used for powering this factory all year long,
to sustain such a production, we would need 370 / 0.7 = 530 hectares.
530 hectares of hemp to produce ethanol, which will be then converted to 30 tons of lettuce per month.

A leafy type of lettuce will produce about 500 kg / ha or 0.5 tons/ha . (https://agriinfo.in/?page=topic&superid=1&topicid=956 )
In our beautiful theoretical climates, we could expect a crop every two months, so 6 crops a year.

Hence, if we used these 530 hectares to produce lettuce directly, we would produce 6*530*0.5 = 1530 tons per year, or 132 tons per/month.

With the same surfaces :
Grow Hemp, Ethanol, Power the farm, Grow Lettuc, Crop Lettuce : 30 tons per months (not including manufacturing of the farm, nutrients)
Grow Lettuce, Crop lettuce : 132 tons per months.

Here is why we should focus on simple systems, low energy use, and keep prototypes such as the one demonstrated as what they are, prototypes.

Please feel free to comment my calculations!

I don't disagree that indoor (under artificial light) farming is almost universally inefficient. Was more a comment on our energy problems and solutions. I did not confirm your calculations but they don't seem off to me.