does health of seed crops affect offspring - Breeder's Laboratory - International Cannagraphic Magazine Forums

JointOperation · 10-19-2014, 03:31 PM

ok.. im seeing lots of so called breeders.. who cant even keep there plants green.. nevermind healthy.. or disease free..

does this have an impact on the seeds coming from the crops?

say the mom and dad are under lots of stress and unhealthy.. does this affect the seeds in anyways what so ever..

I was reading and then heard from a few people that.. when breeding with hermi lines.. the health of the plant and keeping it healthy will help with the offspring not becoming so hermi prone..?

now I know that things get passed on.. but do we know if this adds to anything or can mutate something as its being passed from parents to offspring?

any breeders know this?

I just wonder because.. I was told this is why a lot of breeders who use 3rd parties to make there seed.. have lots more hermis then they think they will . because the people making the seed aren't producing it for sale.. so they could care less how it looks..

then I also heard.. that this is why we keep finding a bunch of weird phenotypes in seeds that shouldn't be there..

mainly because the room being seeded is under shady conditions.. and another plant in the room hermies.. and boom. now your seed packs of THIS.. really have a few s1s and or a few feminized beans from a plant next to it.. especially when making lots of crosses with 1 male...

if anyone can chime in.. it would be greatly appreciated..

harry74 · 10-19-2014, 08:08 PM

My pollen chucker opinión:

No.
May be you don´t produce as much seed as having everything dialled in. Unless it´s some kind of virus, somenthing genetical I don´t know.
I was thinking that may be could affect the shelf life of seeds?
Let´s say you do a seed run but plants are somehow neglected.
¿ Could this affect the germination %?

Just an hypotesis.

This is Somango X BB seeded and infected by spidermite.
The seeds do great, the spidermite didn´t cause any harm to the seeds.
In fact I had 5 different crosses but all the Spidermites were focused in the Somango.

aridbud · 10-19-2014, 10:36 PM

I just wonder because.. I was told this is why a lot of breeders who use 3rd parties to make there seed.. have lots more hermis then they think they will . because the people making the seed aren't producing it for sale.. so they could care less how it looks..

then I also heard.. that this is why we keep finding a bunch of weird phenotypes in seeds that shouldn't be there..

We don't keep any weird phenotypes...that makes no sense.

If you have less than optimum conditions growing cannabis,by seeding them....it'll take much longer to finish due to light, environment.

And breeding with hermy traits...tricky.

With good breeding you take everything into consideration- no short cuts. And a good breeder should test strains themselves before sending test seeds to others to make sure traits are stable. Matter of opinion....

MJPassion · 10-20-2014, 05:21 PM

I don't consider myself a "breeder" but by definition I am simply because I am instrumental in bringing unrelated genetics to my room & crossing them.
I prefer the label of independent chucker.

I'll start by asking...
Do alcoholic mothers produce normal children?
The answer is both yes & no for obvious reasons that both normal & abnormal development can occur.

From what I've read, in the past, genetic code is reset and disease free when it is split then recombined. Therefore, nothing bad could happen. However, reality seems to never match theory.

On that note, I would imagine that genetic defects could be introduced from a non ideal environment.

Also, the scenario where you mention breeders having nanners pop out and pollenate the room...
It happens all the time & is one reason ut is wise to research your seed purchases.

For instance...
I was following a pair of breeders for a couple years until I was told why one particular individual was banned from this breeders go to forum. This individual was attempting to blow the whistle about some particularly bad practices in the breeders grows... namely that the breeder had some plants throw nanners & add to the seed crop being made. Instead of trashing all the seed, the lines were packaged and sold as if nothing happened. Don't mean to trash anybody but this company was Kingdom Organic Seeds, previous to Rev n Greenman parting & going their own ways. Because of this single incident, I feel that neither of these guys deserves my $$$.

Now the decision is yours to make on who you support.
Breeders that engage in shady practices don't deserve even the slightest amout of the spot light.

I hope this post helps with your questions JO & sheds some light on this seedy industry.

HidingInTheHaze · 10-20-2014, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MJPassion

I'll start by asking...
Do alcoholic mothers produce normal children?
The answer is both yes & no for obvious reasons that both normal & abnormal development can occur.

From what I've read, in the past, genetic code is reset and disease free when it is split then recombined. Therefore, nothing bad could happen. However, reality seems to never match theory.

I don't know how much of the science carries over from humans to plants, but modern science has found that many environmental stresses in utero can have a lasting effect of the genetics of humans. It's called epigenetics, where environment can change the outcome.

To expand upon your example:

Quote:

Epigenetics

Search for food in the Hunger Winter

During the Hunger Winter (the Dutch famine of 1944-1945) the west of the Netherlands suffered from an extreme lack of food. It now appears that the limited food intake of mothers who were pregnant during this period altered the genetic material of embryos in the early stages of development. The effects of this can still be observed some sixty years later. These alterations are not changes in the genetic code, but a different setting for the code which indicates whether a gene is on or off. This is known as epigenetics. One of the main processes in epigenetics is connecting the small molecule methyl to DNA.

JointOperation · 10-20-2014, 10:09 PM

ive heard that acclimating to outdoors.. if u make seeds outdoors. the offspring will do better outside the next year..

im wondering if this is the case with seed production. i was hoping someone like sam the skunkman did a side by side or some sort of experiment. but i guess not lol.

hoping someone else chimes in here

Miraculous Meds · 10-20-2014, 10:18 PM

Not a breeder here but I feel like I understand ur question so...

No to effecting the seed for hermy traits. hermies are there because its in the genetics.

Next question was weird phenos.

No imo, that is because of breeding polyhybrids that will have a lot of different phenos, or untested crosses that produce undesirable results.

while I feel confident about my answers I look forward to more knowledgeable people coming in here and confirming it or teaching us something here.

Betterhaff · 10-20-2014, 10:36 PM

I’ve made seeds both indoors and out, same crosses and didn’t really see any difference other than the outdoor seeds were ready sooner. Genetically speaking I don’t see why there would be a difference but I don’t really know, just thinking about the mechanics.

As far as the health of the plant, healthier plants will give you better seeds (quality wise) and also more of them. Will unhealthy plants produce genetically inferior seeds, again I don’t really know.

I will say I’ve had seeds damaged by mites though. I’ve had some pollinated plants get a severe case of spider mites and they did damage the seeds so if you have seeded plants that get mites…get rid of the mites. When I’m growing for seed, they are the crop so I have no problem treating pollinated buds late in flower.

SeedsOfFreedom · 10-20-2014, 11:16 PM

I always assumed genetics ruled, and a cross would be identical every time if the same parents are used every time. Lately as I read about epigenetics and new science, I am having some doubt.

Epigenetic studies in agouti mice have shown genes can be switched on or off in future generations. Cannabis is a plant though, so it may play out differently.

Probably best keep those mamas and papas healthy until we know! As of now I am unsure if parental health affects progeny in Cannabis. I hope we can find a concrete answer here.

JointOperation · 10-24-2014, 03:02 PM

i was reading something about how outdoor produced seeds work better outdoors and indoors works better indoors..

and the hermi thing.. this is why some peoples S1s or Fems hermi much more then others.. the plants they used to reverse werent as healthy as they should of been before reversed .. but i dont know if this is true or not.. but thats what ive been reading.. and it kind of makes sense.. like humans.

and im talking freak phenos. not 1 that looks like the mom or dad that you didnt know was there. im talking about.. when you order something og kush.. and you pop seeds and get 8 og kush smelling and looking and 2 that are fruity and completly different..

lol.. but i get your idea MMeds. lol.

10-19-2014, 03:31 PM	#1
JointOperation Banned Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 1,971	does health of seed crops affect offspring ok.. im seeing lots of so called breeders.. who cant even keep there plants green.. nevermind healthy.. or disease free.. does this have an impact on the seeds coming from the crops? say the mom and dad are under lots of stress and unhealthy.. does this affect the seeds in anyways what so ever.. I was reading and then heard from a few people that.. when breeding with hermi lines.. the health of the plant and keeping it healthy will help with the offspring not becoming so hermi prone..? now I know that things get passed on.. but do we know if this adds to anything or can mutate something as its being passed from parents to offspring? any breeders know this? I just wonder because.. I was told this is why a lot of breeders who use 3rd parties to make there seed.. have lots more hermis then they think they will . because the people making the seed aren't producing it for sale.. so they could care less how it looks.. then I also heard.. that this is why we keep finding a bunch of weird phenotypes in seeds that shouldn't be there.. mainly because the room being seeded is under shady conditions.. and another plant in the room hermies.. and boom. now your seed packs of THIS.. really have a few s1s and or a few feminized beans from a plant next to it.. especially when making lots of crosses with 1 male... if anyone can chime in.. it would be greatly appreciated..
	Quote

10-19-2014, 08:08 PM	#2
harry74 Banned Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: The Frontline Posts: 1,539	My pollen chucker opinión: No. May be you don´t produce as much seed as having everything dialled in. Unless it´s some kind of virus, somenthing genetical I don´t know. I was thinking that may be could affect the shelf life of seeds? Let´s say you do a seed run but plants are somehow neglected. ¿ Could this affect the germination %? Just an hypotesis. This is Somango X BB seeded and infected by spidermite. The seeds do great, the spidermite didn´t cause any harm to the seeds. In fact I had 5 different crosses but all the Spidermites were focused in the Somango.
	Quote 1 members found this post helpful.

10-19-2014, 10:36 PM	#3
aridbud automeister Join Date: May 2013 Location: the best place on earth Posts: 5,589	I just wonder because.. I was told this is why a lot of breeders who use 3rd parties to make there seed.. have lots more hermis then they think they will . because the people making the seed aren't producing it for sale.. so they could care less how it looks.. then I also heard.. that this is why we keep finding a bunch of weird phenotypes in seeds that shouldn't be there.. We don't keep any weird phenotypes...that makes no sense. If you have less than optimum conditions growing cannabis,by seeding them....it'll take much longer to finish due to light, environment. And breeding with hermy traits...tricky. With good breeding you take everything into consideration- no short cuts. And a good breeder should test strains themselves before sending test seeds to others to make sure traits are stable. Matter of opinion.... __________________ Seeds have the power to preserve species, to enhance cultural as well as genetic diversity, to counter economic monopoly and to check the advance of conformity on all its many fronts. Michael Pollan Happiness held is the seed; Happiness shared is the flower. John Harrigan Instant gratification takes too long. Carrie Fisher - RIP. *afterthought autos* We are passionate breeders of unique quality cannabis autoflower hybrid seeds at down to earth prices; now 11 years running! https://www.icmag.com/ic/forumdisplay.php?f=65770
	Quote 1 members found this post helpful.

10-20-2014, 05:21 PM	#4
MJPassion Observer Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: uni-verse Posts: 5,584	I don't consider myself a "breeder" but by definition I am simply because I am instrumental in bringing unrelated genetics to my room & crossing them. I prefer the label of independent chucker. I'll start by asking... Do alcoholic mothers produce normal children? The answer is both yes & no for obvious reasons that both normal & abnormal development can occur. From what I've read, in the past, genetic code is reset and disease free when it is split then recombined. Therefore, nothing bad could happen. However, reality seems to never match theory. On that note, I would imagine that genetic defects could be introduced from a non ideal environment. Also, the scenario where you mention breeders having nanners pop out and pollenate the room... It happens all the time & is one reason ut is wise to research your seed purchases. For instance... I was following a pair of breeders for a couple years until I was told why one particular individual was banned from this breeders go to forum. This individual was attempting to blow the whistle about some particularly bad practices in the breeders grows... namely that the breeder had some plants throw nanners & add to the seed crop being made. Instead of trashing all the seed, the lines were packaged and sold as if nothing happened. Don't mean to trash anybody but this company was Kingdom Organic Seeds, previous to Rev n Greenman parting & going their own ways. Because of this single incident, I feel that neither of these guys deserves my $$$. Now the decision is yours to make on who you support. Breeders that engage in shady practices don't deserve even the slightest amout of the spot light. I hope this post helps with your questions JO & sheds some light on this seedy industry.
	Quote 2 members found this post helpful.

10-20-2014, 11:16 PM	#9
SeedsOfFreedom Member Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 762	I always assumed genetics ruled, and a cross would be identical every time if the same parents are used every time. Lately as I read about epigenetics and new science, I am having some doubt. Epigenetic studies in agouti mice have shown genes can be switched on or off in future generations. Cannabis is a plant though, so it may play out differently. Probably best keep those mamas and papas healthy until we know! As of now I am unsure if parental health affects progeny in Cannabis. I hope we can find a concrete answer here. __________________ Free the weed!
	Quote

10-20-2014, 10:09 PM	#6
JointOperation Banned Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 1,971	ive heard that acclimating to outdoors.. if u make seeds outdoors. the offspring will do better outside the next year.. im wondering if this is the case with seed production. i was hoping someone like sam the skunkman did a side by side or some sort of experiment. but i guess not lol. hoping someone else chimes in here
	Quote

10-20-2014, 10:18 PM	#7
Miraculous Meds Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 3,889	Not a breeder here but I feel like I understand ur question so... No to effecting the seed for hermy traits. hermies are there because its in the genetics. Next question was weird phenos. No imo, that is because of breeding polyhybrids that will have a lot of different phenos, or untested crosses that produce undesirable results. while I feel confident about my answers I look forward to more knowledgeable people coming in here and confirming it or teaching us something here.
	Quote

10-20-2014, 10:36 PM	#8
Betterhaff Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,568	I’ve made seeds both indoors and out, same crosses and didn’t really see any difference other than the outdoor seeds were ready sooner. Genetically speaking I don’t see why there would be a difference but I don’t really know, just thinking about the mechanics. As far as the health of the plant, healthier plants will give you better seeds (quality wise) and also more of them. Will unhealthy plants produce genetically inferior seeds, again I don’t really know. I will say I’ve had seeds damaged by mites though. I’ve had some pollinated plants get a severe case of spider mites and they did damage the seeds so if you have seeded plants that get mites…get rid of the mites. When I’m growing for seed, they are the crop so I have no problem treating pollinated buds late in flower.
	Quote

10-24-2014, 03:02 PM	#10
JointOperation Banned Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 1,971	i was reading something about how outdoor produced seeds work better outdoors and indoors works better indoors.. and the hermi thing.. this is why some peoples S1s or Fems hermi much more then others.. the plants they used to reverse werent as healthy as they should of been before reversed .. but i dont know if this is true or not.. but thats what ive been reading.. and it kind of makes sense.. like humans. and im talking freak phenos. not 1 that looks like the mom or dad that you didnt know was there. im talking about.. when you order something og kush.. and you pop seeds and get 8 og kush smelling and looking and 2 that are fruity and completly different.. lol.. but i get your idea MMeds. lol.
	Quote