[EclipseFour20]

Originally Posted by Sylvester1

Our lab has run a variety of products on gas chromatograph, and many of these label claims are simply not true. Alfalfa certainly has triacontanol in it. The samples of Boost we ran were positive for triacontanol as well.

Show and tell! Saying something is nice, but showing something is better!

[Sylvester1]

Originally Posted by EclipseFour20

Show and tell! Saying something is nice, but showing something is better!

That student graduated in spring; I haven't heard from them since then, and I don't have the data.

Triacontanol only dissolves in water with detergents, and in solvents like chloroform and ethanol. Most manufacturers don't want to use the non-aqueous solvents, so if it claims triacontanol and it doesn't foam (REALLY foam) when you shake it, be skeptical. Detergent suds don't guarantee triacontanol, but it's a good hint.

Now, whether the stuff really works or not is another matter entirely.

[stevewinthrop]

Originally Posted by Sylvester1

That student graduated in spring; I haven't heard from them since then, and I don't have the data.

Triacontanol only dissolves in water with detergents, and in solvents like chloroform and ethanol. Most manufacturers don't want to use the non-aqueous solvents, so if it claims triacontanol and it doesn't foam (REALLY foam) when you shake it, be skeptical. Detergent suds don't guarantee triacontanol, but it's a good hint.

Now, whether the stuff really works or not is another matter entirely.

Whether it works or not? Really?

[BigBozat]

Originally Posted by Sylvester1

That student graduated in spring; I haven't heard from them since then, and I don't have the data.

Triacontanol only dissolves in water with detergents, and in solvents like chloroform and ethanol. Most manufacturers don't want to use the non-aqueous solvents, so if it claims triacontanol and it doesn't foam (REALLY foam) when you shake it, be skeptical. Detergent suds don't guarantee triacontanol, but it's a good hint.

Now, whether the stuff really works or not is another matter entirely.

Castings vague assertions on everything but alf meal & boost, then hand-waving that the data's not avail to identify what's what is... um... kinda weak, don't ya think?

Tria solubility usually requires solvents or strong emuslifiers, as prev pointed out [by milkyjoe]... but, as milkyjoe conjectured [and as confirmed by the SunJay product] tria can be enzymatically processed to make it water soluble, too...

And, perhaps citrus terpenes could serve as a non-hazardous solvent for solubilizing tria, too...

Try to keep up.

[EclipseFour20]

Originally Posted by Sylvester1

Our lab has run a variety of products on gas chromatograph, and many of these label claims are simply not true. Alfalfa certainly has triacontanol in it. The samples of Boost we ran were positive for triacontanol as well.

Originally Posted by Sylvester1

That student graduated in spring; I haven't heard from them since then, and I don't have the data.

Triacontanol only dissolves in water with detergents, and in solvents like chloroform and ethanol. Most manufacturers don't want to use the non-aqueous solvents, so if it claims triacontanol and it doesn't foam (REALLY foam) when you shake it, be skeptical. Detergent suds don't guarantee triacontanol, but it's a good hint.

Now, whether the stuff really works or not is another matter entirely.

Sorry, the impression I had when you said, "Our lab has run a variety of products on gas chromatograph, and many of these label claims are simply not true."---that was based on real analysis...not a student project, LOL! Like you were part of "professional team"...working in a "professional lab". My bad.

Dude, "hearsay" info is worthless...IMHO, it is worse than "bad information". Of course if you prefaced your comments with "IMHO", then we would all know where you were coming from.

Opinions are to be respected. Facts are to be challenged/tested/verified....student projects are seldom "definitive" (not all students earn "A's" on their work--some "fail").

[Sylvester1]

Originally Posted by BigBozat

Castings vague assertions on everything but alf meal & boost, then hand-waving that the data's not avail to identify what's what is... um... kinda weak, don't ya think?

You had questions concerning SuperThrive and two other products. I was alluding to the inability of SuperThrive (among others) to foam.

Originally Posted by BigBozat

Tria solubility usually requires solvents or strong emuslifiers, as prev pointed out [by milkyjoe]... but, as milkyjoe conjectured [and as confirmed by the SunJay product] tria can be enzymatically processed to make it water soluble, too...

You are conflating an enzymatic process for extraction (as described on SunJay's website: "Unique 2 in 1 combination plant growth promoter with Triacontanol from Beeswax & Liquid Seaweed - Extracted by unique Enzymatic process," in which they do not specify whether they are extracting beeswax or seaweed enzymatically) with solubility.

Triacontanol is a C30 wax; its solubility will not be changed through enzymatic processes without changing its intrinsic chemical properties. A hydrocarbon backbone of that length is not made soluble in that fashion. This is a persistent theme in the history of triacontanol as demonstrated in the literature and the patent history: its sparing solubility does not make it amenable to administration in aqueous solution.

[milkyjoe]

That makes sense.

How about adressing the it may not work comment. I have personally seen no difference. I use alfafa for the protein content. hard to find non gmo protein anymore.

[milkyjoe]

And while you are here. Can chitosan be made from chitin by an enzymatic process? And is there any chance in hell you could stop that process from going beyond chitosan once you start it?

[Sylvester1]

Originally Posted by milkyjoe

How about adressing the it may not work comment. I have personally seen no difference. I use alfafa for the protein content. hard to find non gmo protein anymore.

You are not alone. Triacontanol has a long history of disappointing and erratic results. I can't get into too much detail as the client who paid for the work wouldn't be happy.

However, I would suggest the following.

An experiment in which these conditions were satisfied would be most useful; however, most growers are either unable or unwilling to do so:

1) Use a product containing only triacontanol and the bare components to solubilize it. Triacontanol is reported to be active at nanomolar concentrations by Ries, who discovered it. This is only marginally more than the solubility of the pure compound, so little help is needed.

2) Apply to several crops. Do so in a double-blind fashion.

3) Collect data; analyze it, then repeat the experiment as a crossover trial.

Simply put, running serialized experiments in which a multicomponent formula is applied will yield unsatisfactory results: you will be unable to isolate the benefits of a single component. Running experiments in parallel is required for true statistical significance.

Originally Posted by milkyjoe

And while you are here. Can chitosan be made from chitin by an enzymatic process? And is there any chance in hell you could stop that process from going beyond chitosan once you start it?

Not really my field, but my take on it is that chitin is easily produced from chitosan using sodium hydroxide; there is no need for enzymes, but perhaps someone uses them. The chitin is stable at high pH so the reaction so far as I know stops there. United States Patent 4195175 goes into detail.

[EclipseFour20]

All reputable studies have concluded...too much Triacontanol--no bueno, not enough Triacontanol--no bueno, but the right amount--"kiss my grits!".

As in most things "less is best" cuz you can always add a bit more tomorrow...but you can never remove tomorrow---the excess you put in today.

IMHO, a good rule is to start off with 1/3 to 1/2 the suggested dosage if your grow medium is dialed in (pH, CEC, air porosity, water holding capacity, particle size, etc). Me, I incorporate Triacontanol 3 different ways: Grow medium ingredient (alfalfa meal--6oz/cu ft), water soluble root feeding (JumpStart--5ml/gal) and foliar feed (JumpStart prior to flower formation--1.25ml/gal, Canna Boost after formation--10ml/gal).

In my world, any greater amount is too much....now, the million dollar question is---have I hit the sweet spot? Probably not...but I do like the current results. First time I have been told, my "buds are too big"...lol. Which I replied, "I can cut them in half with my paper cutter"....LOL. The change? JumpStart.

BTW...I noticed in my notes that the formulator said some people got great results with JumpStart using as little as 1ml/gal...others jacked it up to 7.5ml/gal. I know, big range--but I guess it depends on the grow medium, indoor/outdoor, and what other inputs you are using. Too much of anything is nasty....except sex. LOL