Late flowering - Too much Nitrogen

Weeded1s · Sep 6, 2014

Thats what were all talking about is the timing of the cutting of n . The thing is indoors it depends on lighting climate genetics etc. Ive done outdoor as well and being indoors has its own little tricky battles like climate etc. Also strain has a lot to do with when you cut n as well. I have cut down green plants and I have cut down well flushed plants ..ive cut down starved plants and Ive cut down plants with too much n too late in bloom. Keywords here are TOO MUCH (that doesnt mean have 0 ppm worth) and WHEN( heavy N on weeks 8 9 10) or last 3 weeks before harvest.

stoned40yrs · Sep 6, 2014

Nice looking plants, glad to hear your happy with your nutes. Looking out my windows and there are hundreds of different wild plants all turning yellow, brown and getting ready to die. I guess they don't want no more N. :biggrin:

I've only run Maxibloom KISS and 6/9 so far in coco. The Maxibloom is 5-15-14 so I ran N all the way till the end. Fans yellowed up like they should. The 6/9 I dropped the micro so they weren't getting N near the end and the fans yellowed up nice. A guy on here ,coconutz, ran the 6/9 all the way, not dropping the micro which has N. I might try that this time but his fans yellowed up also. Personally there's not one chance in hell I'm adding any N on purpose to keep the fans green near the end but to each his own. Goodluck! :tiphat:

stihgnobevoli · Sep 6, 2014

i just got through saying people disagree, and offered my own opinion, then you say hey! your opinion is wrong!

real class.

i mean all that shit is cool and i find it very interesting...when i'm in biology class. this is a simple plant that has been grown for EON's before anyone even knew that sunlight makes plants grow. I don't really need to know all the chemical reactions going on , on a molecular level. i just watch the plant and she tells me what she needs. then i give it to her. when i run a plant more than once i will already know what she likes and anticipate the need. but i rarely run anything twice.over the years and many plants later i just have a general guideline that most plants fit into and adjust or each individual plant as needed.
if allowed to continue defs can reach a point of no return where they wont recover and you will need to start over (reveg/trash/whatever) but just because a leaf turned yellow it doesn't mean your plant is in some final decline, just means its hungry, you feed it, the world continues to turn.

i've done it a million times, you don't have to believe me, i just have to know i'm telling facts that i've observed.

i may not know how many gibberlings are in 1 femtometer of leaf tissue, but i don't need to in order to tell that a yellowing leaf that soon after shrivels and falls off means that the plant is using nitrogen faster than the soil can supply it and i should prolly feed it some more.

stihgnobevoli · Sep 6, 2014

stoned40yrs said:
Personally there's not one chance in hell I'm adding any N on purpose to keep the fans green near the end but to each his own. Goodluck!

he said he was on week 4 of flower, this is exactly when you add more N. i dunno where he lives but here in florida the flowering season only just begun a couple weeks ago. we don't harvest till christmas then another flowering season begins and we can harvest in late april. 3 growing seasons here.

DrFever · Sep 6, 2014

stoned40yrs said:
Nice looking plants, glad to hear your happy with your nutes. Looking out my windows and there are hundreds of different wild plants all turning yellow, brown and getting ready to die. I guess they don't want no more N. I've only run Maxibloom KISS and 6/9 so far in coco. The Maxibloom is 5-15-14 so I ran N all the way till the end. Fans yellowed up like they should. The 6/9 I dropped the micro so they weren't getting N near the end and the fans yellowed up nice. A guy on here ,coconutz, ran the 6/9 all the way, not dropping the micro which has N. I might try that this time but his fans yellowed up also. Personally there's not one chance in hell I'm adding any N on purpose to keep the fans green near the end but to each his own. Goodluck!

So you think the soil is out of nitrogen thus causing the yellowing in the outdoor trees to be honest darkenss colder temps triggering fall has a lot to do with this here this will give you a understanding on what really happening
http://www.usna.usda.gov/PhotoGallery/FallFoliage/ScienceFallColor.html

Would you not agree that having a healthy plant going into flower is key to greater harvests
i have seen plants not as healthy going into flower that did not produce anywhere near what there counter part Same strain did
We are growing indoors mimicking out door conditions amount of light temps and rainfall ( watering )
You just have to look Most jedi growers will maintain a healthy N uptake in flower its mandatory for everything to work properly
fighting off the yellowing remember folks them leafs are what run the whole show producing sugars and starches etc if they yellow off to quick there will not be enough so more leafs go yellow a precussion to its eventual death just because marijuana is a Annual does not mean that the yellowing is Normal and thats what plants suppose to do its not
We as growers have upper advantage then mother nature colder temps and droughts that cause yellowing Frost in most cases is what kills annuals

The goal is trying to keep the plant as green and as long as you can more n more jedi growers are running this path not saying running more or same N levels as in veg but maintaining enough to combat the yellowing

papaduc · Sep 6, 2014

Dr.Fever, pretty much all of what you're saying is invalidated by the fact this is about the effects of excessive amounts of nitrogen in the bloom period, not whether nitrogen should be removed completely. It's a macro nutrient and obviously it shouldn't. But it should be tapered down compared to what is fed in veg.

A healthy amount of nitrogen in flower is less, by ratio, than a healthy amount in veg. It's a well established and proven fact.

stoned40yrs · Sep 6, 2014

Uncle Bent and the Nitrogenettes.

stihgnobevoli · Sep 6, 2014

everything green on the plant conducts photosynthesis. this is a fact. not just leaves. wish people stop focusing on the prettiness of the leaves and recognize them for what they are.

CloudyAmberDay · Sep 6, 2014

The Great, Ed Rosenthal and Mel Frank!!

"Nitrogen
The amount of nitrogen a soil can supply is the best indication of its fertility. Nitrogen, more than any other soil nutrient, is inextricably linked with the living ecosystem. Nitrogen is continually cycled through living systems: from soil to plants and back to the soil, primarily by the activity of soil microorganisms. Nitrogen is essential to all life. Nitrogen is a key element in the structure of amino acids, the molecules which make up proteins. These, and all other biomolecules, are synthesised by the plant. Chlorophyll, genetic material (for example, DNA), and numerous enzymes and plant hormones contain nitrogen. Hence, N is necessary for many of the plant's life processes.
Cannabis is a nitrophile, a lover of nitrogen. Given ample N, Cannabis will outgrow practically and plant. Ample nitrogen is associated with fast, lush growth, and the plant requires a steady supply of nitrogen throughout its life. Marijuana's requirements for N are highest during the vegetative growth stages
(65 of 158)
THE MARIJUANA GROWER'S GUIDE..........by Mel Frank & Ed Rosenthal"

Don't want to beat a dead horse here :deadhorse

But their is a reason why veg ferts have a ratio of 3-1-2 and bloom is more like 1-2-2 , 1-2-3, 1-3-2 - you get the idea.

Great info here guys - At the end of the day their is a balance - To each their own.

Nitrogen is essential - not needed at the "end" of a plants "life" cycle. Last week of flower for example.

Beautiful plants all around - the taste of buds and pics don't correlate unfortunately :tiphat:

DrFever · Sep 7, 2014

papaduc said:
Dr.Fever, pretty much all of what you're saying is invalidated by the fact this is about the effects of excessive amounts of nitrogen in the bloom period, not whether nitrogen should be removed completely. It's a macro nutrient and obviously it shouldn't. But it should be tapered down compared to what is fed in veg.

A healthy amount of nitrogen in flower is less, by ratio, than a healthy amount in veg. It's a well established and proven fact.

Nitrogen makes up 78% of the dry volume of our atmosphere and plants need to capture it if they want to grow at all.
Unless your plants are in the final weeks of flowering phase, yellow leaves (especially lower leaves) are signs of trouble, and the troubles are most often a nitrogen deficiency. It starts with the bottom leaves and works its way up until only the newest growth is green.

On the other hand, if your marijuana plants are overdosing on nitrogen, the leaves will be extremely dark green.

Either way, nitrogen problems mean big trouble for your marijuana plants because nitrogen is absolutely necessary for plant survival because nitrogen is a primary elemental support for protein synthesis, growth, leaf development, metabolism, and root health. and we all know bigger root mass means more up take of nutrients meaning more yield in the end in reality

DrFever · Sep 7, 2014

Here is a post i found pretty good read

I was using Bloom nutes with NO Nitrogen at all in them. I used them on 7 grows. I was told for the past 3 years that it ws natural for the plant's lower leaves to yellow and fall off during Flowring and I mistakenly accepted that as fact. HERD mentality.

What made me doubt it is when I grew outdoors in heavy fertilized patches many yers ago, heavy in manure and all kinds of nitrogen, none of the lower fan leaves yellowed and fell off then.

Then I read up on ADVANCED NUTRIENTS.
I was told by many growers that use them that they will balance the pH for you and you can toss the pH UP and the pH Down if you use Advanced Nutrients.
Sounded good to me, so I ordered the BLOOM, and they came in two one gallon jugs, labeled Part A and Part B. The instructions say to add them separately to the tank and make the ppm 800 to 900 per reservoir or 1.8 tablespoon per gallon of water.
That was simple enough.

I noticed that one container contained NO Nitrogen, and very high on Phosperous and very little Potassium.
The other container was High on Nitrogen, Low on Phosperous and High on Potassium.
Hmmmmm??? Nitrogen in Bloom Nutes????? That was rare to me.

They claim that ADVANCED NUTRIENTS is one of the very few nutrients sold and labeled that they are made especially for marijuana growing.

Hhhhhmmmm? Bloom Nutes High in Nitrogen??????

The container labeled High in Nitrogen looks like Liquid Karma, it is a brown liquid and not thin either. I decided to remain loyal to my SH pre-packaged nutes for this grow, but I wanted to try the ADVANCED NUTRIENTS, so I used them ONLY in my 5 gallon experimental bucket.

After two days, I noticed a couple of changes.
One, first thing I noticed is they started having a stronger skunk smell again, like when they were in the VEG cycle. A few days after I first started the BLOOM nutes , the strong smell diminshed. After adding the Advanced Nutrients with Nitrogen, the bad stink came back And strong too.
Two, secondly I noticed that the the lower third of the plant's leaves QUIT having dying off, falling off, yellowing leaves. I was averaging 3 or 4 leaves a day falling off per plant, and suddenly NONE fell off. They all quit yellowing and falling off.
Three, I noticed all kinds of new green leaves growing out of the flowers or bud sites.

Hhhhmmmm, had to be the Nitrogen!

So I spent almost an entire day googling and searching for info on adding Nitrogen during the Flowereing Cycle. VERY INTERESTING.
I ALSO LOOKED THROUGH 4 BOOKS. All I could find is advice saying DO NOT ADD VEG NUTES(Nitrogen) DURING THE BLOOM CYCLE, because of the affect on TASTE. There was no other reason NOT to do it.

So, I asked some expert growers.
You said that you always adds a small amount of Nitrogen nutes to the Bloom Cycle and none of your lower leaves yellow and fall off.
A nameless large outdoor commerical grower that I know told me he digs a giant hole and throws all the dirt away and fills the hole back up with an assortment of different soils, peat moss, all kinds of different manure and bat poop and all kinds of nitrogen. He said when his plants naturally go to 12/12, they never shed a lower leaf. He never adds any phosperous or anything else either. He grows those 15 to 20 foot tall trees too.
He said he does not flush them, how could he flush an outdoor tree in soil? And he says that he never gets any nitrogen-fertilizer taste in his buds either.

And in my asking around, many indoor hydro growers say their secret trick is to add a little Nitrogen during BLOOM to get larger plants and larger buds and a larger harvest.

So, on my other two tanks, when I added one gallon of water back, I added 1/6 packet of my regular VEG nutes. Now they are not shedding any leaves and the bud sites are rapidly filling in too.

And they are all stinking to high heaven.

I think most books and many experienced growers are wrong about this Nitrogen in Flowering Cycle and nee dto experiment with it to get larger yields..

And let me tell you two years ago, (I have pics) I was helping my X wife do a grow at her house, and her husband bought a book and wanted to lollipop her plants and she did. She averaged one and half oucnes of dried buds frome each plant, while I averaged 4, growing the same strain, in the same DWC system with the same lights.

Just because someone makes a name for a procedure , doesn't make it right.

DrFever · Sep 7, 2014

Don't get too caught up in numbers on the bottle. You have to think about what the plant sees.

Those numbers are (basically) the elemental weight in the bottle. 20-20-20 is 20% by weight N and so on. Then depending on your mixing instructions it's diluted to what you need.

20-20-20 at 1tsp per gallon is the same as 10-10-10 at 2tsp per gallon. Get what I'm say'n here?

So when you see what you think might be a high N food you have to keep mind that there is a ratio to P and K and that they are diluted for your plants.

Let's look at Jack's thing.

10-30-20

Now some might see that as a large dose of N but if you really look at it, it's just a ratio of 1 part N - 3 parts P - 2 parts K

So, you might see

3-9-6
6-18-12

it's all the same as long as the mix is ajusted to the ratio.

CloudyAmberDay · Sep 7, 2014

I don't get too caught up on the numbers, no one has answered this

why is potassium so much more prevalent then phosphorus??

a 7-9-5 comes down to a 2-1-1, Molecular weight?? Here's a pic

This is an interesting excerpt from R.C Clarke from his book on botany that I was reading.

"columbian gold" was actually named that from all the leaves turning yellow, I can't copy paste from the book so here's a pic of the excerpt.

Thank you Dr.Fever for sharing your thought with us - since you are in the coco section you might be familiar with this nutrient profile of 6/9 micro bloom. coconutz would use to all the way through not dropping the nitrogen. others drop the micro at various week.

I think everyone has their own preference, thank you for your valid points and fellow grower techniques and accomplishments shared.

1st pic is correlated with the question to why is potassium more prevalent in small amounts then phosphorus?

2nd pic Excerpt from marijuana botany, R.C. Clark on Columbian Gold. Just interesting, happened to read it a hour ago, not making a point.

As far as Nitrogen during the end of a plant cycle

"Lettuce needs extra nitrogen close to harvest time to support leafy growth."

http://homeguides.sfgate.com/effects-nitrogen-fertilizer-45896.html

as far as the post you found

"I was using Bloom nutes with NO Nitrogen at all in them.

He/She was using NONE at all! You need a little in bloom :tiphat:

papaduc · Sep 8, 2014

DrFever said:
Nitrogen makes up 78% of the dry volume of our atmosphere and plants need to capture it if they want to grow at all.
Unless your plants are in the final weeks of flowering phase, yellow leaves (especially lower leaves) are signs of trouble, and the troubles are most often a nitrogen deficiency. It starts with the bottom leaves and works its way up until only the newest growth is green.

On the other hand, if your marijuana plants are overdosing on nitrogen, the leaves will be extremely dark green.

Either way, nitrogen problems mean big trouble for your marijuana plants because nitrogen is absolutely necessary for plant survival because nitrogen is a primary elemental support for protein synthesis, growth, leaf development, metabolism, and root health. and we all know bigger root mass means more up take of nutrients meaning more yield in the end in reality

I don't disagree. But in the bloom period I'd rather have a slight deficit than a slight excess of nitrogen, put it that way. In veg a little bit too much N is no problem at all, the plants can use it and grow out of it. In flower excess nitrogen retards bud growth for however long it's in excess.

Ideally they stay just green enough all the way through. I agree with that.

papaduc · Sep 8, 2014

DrFever said:
Here is a post i found pretty good read

I was using Bloom nutes with NO Nitrogen at all in them. I used them on 7 grows. I was told for the past 3 years that it ws natural for the plant's lower leaves to yellow and fall off during Flowring and I mistakenly accepted that as fact. HERD mentality.

What made me doubt it is when I grew outdoors in heavy fertilized patches many yers ago, heavy in manure and all kinds of nitrogen, none of the lower fan leaves yellowed and fell off then.

Then I read up on ADVANCED NUTRIENTS.
I was told by many growers that use them that they will balance the pH for you and you can toss the pH UP and the pH Down if you use Advanced Nutrients.
Sounded good to me, so I ordered the BLOOM, and they came in two one gallon jugs, labeled Part A and Part B. The instructions say to add them separately to the tank and make the ppm 800 to 900 per reservoir or 1.8 tablespoon per gallon of water.
That was simple enough.

I noticed that one container contained NO Nitrogen, and very high on Phosperous and very little Potassium.
The other container was High on Nitrogen, Low on Phosperous and High on Potassium.
Hmmmmm??? Nitrogen in Bloom Nutes????? That was rare to me.

They claim that ADVANCED NUTRIENTS is one of the very few nutrients sold and labeled that they are made especially for marijuana growing.

Hhhhhmmmm? Bloom Nutes High in Nitrogen??????

The container labeled High in Nitrogen looks like Liquid Karma, it is a brown liquid and not thin either. I decided to remain loyal to my SH pre-packaged nutes for this grow, but I wanted to try the ADVANCED NUTRIENTS, so I used them ONLY in my 5 gallon experimental bucket.

After two days, I noticed a couple of changes.
One, first thing I noticed is they started having a stronger skunk smell again, like when they were in the VEG cycle. A few days after I first started the BLOOM nutes , the strong smell diminshed. After adding the Advanced Nutrients with Nitrogen, the bad stink came back And strong too.
Two, secondly I noticed that the the lower third of the plant's leaves QUIT having dying off, falling off, yellowing leaves. I was averaging 3 or 4 leaves a day falling off per plant, and suddenly NONE fell off. They all quit yellowing and falling off.
Three, I noticed all kinds of new green leaves growing out of the flowers or bud sites.

Hhhhmmmm, had to be the Nitrogen!

So I spent almost an entire day googling and searching for info on adding Nitrogen during the Flowereing Cycle. VERY INTERESTING.
I ALSO LOOKED THROUGH 4 BOOKS. All I could find is advice saying DO NOT ADD VEG NUTES(Nitrogen) DURING THE BLOOM CYCLE, because of the affect on TASTE. There was no other reason NOT to do it.

So, I asked some expert growers.
You said that you always adds a small amount of Nitrogen nutes to the Bloom Cycle and none of your lower leaves yellow and fall off.
A nameless large outdoor commerical grower that I know told me he digs a giant hole and throws all the dirt away and fills the hole back up with an assortment of different soils, peat moss, all kinds of different manure and bat poop and all kinds of nitrogen. He said when his plants naturally go to 12/12, they never shed a lower leaf. He never adds any phosperous or anything else either. He grows those 15 to 20 foot tall trees too.
He said he does not flush them, how could he flush an outdoor tree in soil? And he says that he never gets any nitrogen-fertilizer taste in his buds either.

And in my asking around, many indoor hydro growers say their secret trick is to add a little Nitrogen during BLOOM to get larger plants and larger buds and a larger harvest.

So, on my other two tanks, when I added one gallon of water back, I added 1/6 packet of my regular VEG nutes. Now they are not shedding any leaves and the bud sites are rapidly filling in too.

And they are all stinking to high heaven.

I think most books and many experienced growers are wrong about this Nitrogen in Flowering Cycle and nee dto experiment with it to get larger yields..

And let me tell you two years ago, (I have pics) I was helping my X wife do a grow at her house, and her husband bought a book and wanted to lollipop her plants and she did. She averaged one and half oucnes of dried buds frome each plant, while I averaged 4, growing the same strain, in the same DWC system with the same lights.

Just because someone makes a name for a procedure , doesn't make it right.

Hold on a minute... where are these nutes with no nitrogen? Can you show me them?

I don't think a single person I know of uses nutrients with no nitrogen to grow weed.

You're misinterpreting pretty much the whole argument, and in doing so you're making claims that new growers especially might completely misinterpret.

HIGH amounts of nitrogen in flower ARE bad. That fact hasn't changed. Adding veg nutes to a well balanced bloom nutrient is a bad idea. Let me make that clear. Your posts almost make nitrogen out to be a yield booster to be added on top of your basic nutes. It's certainly not and it definitely shouldn't.

stihgnobevoli · Sep 8, 2014

you guys are reading way too deep into this.

certain elements promote certain actions in all plants. tomatoes, oranges, weed.

phosphorous helps blooms. blooms are oranges, roses, tomatoes, buds. all the same shit.

the same shit that makes big ass apples will make big ass buds.

N helps this, P helps that K another Ca, Mg, etc..etc..etc

DrFever · Sep 8, 2014

Plants need balanced nutrients, whether you're growing in hydroponics or organic soil. The medium and nutrients do not matter, as long as your plants are provided a balanced, nutritional breakfast...lol

Seriously - dont go big on any specific NPK nutrient - an even keel wins the race - happy, healthy plants that are not force fed specific nutrients will provide you with bigger and better flowers - or vegetables; doesn't matter.

Bloom boosters are the nutrient companies way of taking even more of your money - dont waste it.

Here's a quick quote showing you what I mean from this website:Nutrition Myths That Can Damage Your Crops | Everris US

If I had a nickel for every time I heard: “Nitrogen is for leaves, phosphorus is for roots and flowers and potassium is for stems,” I would be rich.

Growers have long believed that they need to use high-phosphorus fertilizers at planting and during the flowering period for sufficient root and flower growth. The fact is growers need to supply all plant parts with essential elements at required amounts to achieve optimal growth. If healthy flowers or roots are analyzed for nutrient content, not only is phosphorus present, but so are all the other essential elements.

So how did this myth start? High-phosphorus fertilizers such as Blossom Boosters and Plant Starters were developed many years ago when greenhouse growers were still planting in mineral or field soil. Since some mineral soils quickly tie up soluble phosphorus, high-phosphorus fertilizers were needed to flood the soil with phosphorus so that plants could take up an adequate amount of the nutrient before it was fixed by the soil and unavailable to the plants.

Not trying to dump on anything or anyone - isnt my intention. I just see a lot of folks believing the whole "N veg/PK flower" paradigm, and end up missing out. do your own tests i will guarantee you that when 2 plants side by side grown one plant gets its balanced nutrient and other gets its what you all think is bloom fert ratios when harvest time comes the plant that has had the little more N in flower being healthier will with out a doubt harvest you more then the one that started yellowing off 2nd = 3rd week

stihgnobevoli · Sep 8, 2014

no one said you had to bloom boost anything, there are simple facts that are universal. 321 in veg 132 in flower. nothing needs to be boosted ratios just need to be adjusted so that what the plant needs when it needs it is available.

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Late flowering - Too much Nitrogen

Weeded1s

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stoned40yrs

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