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Old 08-01-2014, 04:43 AM #1
Infinitesimal
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Prospective Escort, Natasha...




An R&D Test Cross
Codename: Natasha v1.1
Kush x (Sativa Hashplant x Kush)

First let me start by explaining my philosophy on breeding specifically in regards to what the market currently refers to as "testers" and "test crosses"... I will be using the term breeder here rather loosely.

The current way it seems to work is the breeder grows out some X odd number of parental seed stock, then typically makes a male selection based off the smell of the stem rub, the leaf or plant or branch structure, or vigor, or floral size etc etc. the list goes on and on with these trait that these breeders select their males based on, and they don't have anything to do with the quality of flowers the daughters of that male are going to produce.

I have heard many breeders in their own words talk, brag even, about how they selected their male plants while 1 foot in veg... they kill the rest of the males and use that one to make some seeds, then pass out seeds from a bunch of different crosses using that one male. SO, Instead of "testing" the genetic potential of that male against other males of that line, what they are doing is a mixture of quality control and promotion... both of which are great and help the breeder/test grower/seed buyer but it isn't testing...

IMO there is a difference between...

Growing a "test cross", the R&D work that is necessary to properly select a male specimen that is superior to his siblings based on observing the statistics when you compare the progeny of male #1 vs #2 vs #3 vs#4... vs#60! so you can see how much work and how much time it would take to make proper selections based off "test crosses".

And...

"Test growing" a cross, where the individual male has already been selected (usually by faulty means) by the breeder and the cross just needs to be grown by third parties in differing environments for both quality control (so if that cross sucks they can cull it, even though if proper R&D were done... bunk crosses would never make it that far towards production) and to promote to potential seed buyers and instill confidence in their purchase that they will get similar results as those growers who "tested the cross" (not the R&D test cross).

this will be me, growing a "test cross"


---------------------------

how can the R&D and testing be done differently and more equitably for all involved?

As someone who buys seeds, and a fair amount at that one thing that I have always disliked was the lack of detail or any evidence of the breeding process, as a seed buyer we are left with having to trust that they don't just hack shit in their underwear drawer. While we usually only get pics of the mother plants, often seeded... you hardly ever get to see phenotypes of the actual cross you are purchasing as grown and shared by the breeder and if you do its often one. So there is still no way to tell if that is a super special 1/200 pheno or is it the average one you find every five seeds. That is unit you wait for all the 3rd party reports to come in, which 2/3 never do and if you waited and the variety was in demand and or limited you're SOL.

The other thing is lying about genetics or having secret/stolen genetics, and since there is no reasonable expectation for any breeder to actually show you the process of breeding, lying becomes easy. And with that comes what we all know has happened, where breeders get fake cuts/bagseed or just lie and say it is something that it's not. So that leads to secret genetics, which without transparency creates even more space for lying then it just becomes standard business practice for many, and the cycle continues and gets worse... I think that needs to change...
but I understand the need for breeders with the knowledge and passion who are really putting in the work and all the R&D to keep things under wraps so people can't byte and try to hack a similar cross together and put it out to market with your variety name without putting in any of the work.... and giving your variety a bad name in the process.

I think I have improvised a way to document my breeding and R&D that allows everyone to follow the whole process and track one line to the next, back to the original P1 donors and all the way to the final cross... allowing me to keep things under wraps until the cross is finalized while you can still keep track of the lineages through the various successive code names and then all the info will be compiled and made clear for any who didn't understand the order at the end of the project....

Making and growing test crosses takes a lot of time and cost a lot of money cause there is no return and the majority of them only are used for comparative statistical analysis in determining which male to use and why.

I think that is good enough for the basics I hope to start a thread to delve deeper into my Ideas on the subject but that will be at later.


(to all the real pro breeders you know who you are, and know none of this pertains to you.)
-----------------------------

So Natasha, is an experimental "test cross" and a part of my R&D work to test both the potential of a specific male from my 2012 Angel Breath/2013 Good Vibes line and also test the result of crossing that line back to a female of the Kush family on the paternal side of the cross.... if that made sense, so its Kush x (Sativa Hashplant x Kush).

I made the cross a while back and I just started 10 seeds to see what kind of females pop out of a small population, how similar they are and what kind of traits do they posses? the goal would be to determine; whether this male is a quality male, how the two lines mix together, whether Its worth making F2's of this specific cross or if I should go back to both lines and select different individuals... which will likely be done over time any way as varieties get grown and different generations get made. If I find nothing but fire in here, then I will pop the remaining 80 plus seeds and do a half sibling pollination using only the best females, separate those lines and do some type of pedigree method... if its bunk then the Natasha Line gets culled. that simple no one needs to waste their time and money on beans and the grow space/time/effort to find out the breeder's cross happened to have problems and it turned out bunk.


-------------------------------------------------

this is not going to be any kind of hype show or anything like that, don't expect a bunch of updates.... but I will keep it relevant and up to date but I don't need it to be redundant and up date twice a week to show the changes in the first week of flower when there is cool shit happening you'll see it.

there is an album in my profile of the veg shots and leaf detail of all 7 'Tasha's if you can't wait for me to take a break for a while and post them up when I get back.

otherwise sub or what ever if you want to follow along...

if you have any questions or comments, as long as they are related to either Natasha, proper research and development or parental testing's role in breeding, feel free to post 'em up.

Peace,
Infi
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Old 08-01-2014, 06:39 AM #2
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they have been under T5's there whole lives until just recently so they are little extra leggy and less branchy, but the seed plants are really just to provide cuts that will get flowered. five gallon bucket for size reference.

Natasha #1


Natasha #2
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Old 08-01-2014, 06:43 AM #3
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Natasha #3


Natasha #4
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Old 08-01-2014, 06:50 AM #4
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Natasha #5


Natasha #6
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Old 08-01-2014, 07:01 AM #5
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Natasha #7


as far as growth goes, they are not slow but neither are they super vigorous especially considering I am growing a couple pure sativas at the moment so nothing outpaces them in terms of vigor and it may jade my opinion a little bit.

they seem very suitable for SOG or a small to medium sized multi top plants with minimal veg time. the stalks are very strong and sturdy. I would call their structure/shape a stretch indica. and the only variation is in height and a little bit of leaf morphology. #1, 5, 6 and 7 are significantly taller than #2, 3 and 4 with 2 and 4 being the ones with slightly different slightly more interesting looking leaves... leaves which mean practically nothing to me but just an observation.
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Old 08-02-2014, 09:21 PM #6
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Interesting .
Have you considered completely reversing a 'good' female to see how the corresponding male could look and vice versa (i.e. male -> female)?
I'm in complete agreement with you that one should grow and test cross an individual to judge it rather than 'select' a plant due its appearance in early veg or so. Hence, I'm really curious to see a documentation of someone's work.
Good luck!
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Old 08-02-2014, 09:54 PM #7
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hey OO,

thanks for the supportive comment.

reversing is quickly becoming a part of my techniques but that is more to measure the breeding value of any given individual female without having to add the genetic influence from another plant... allowing us to see (if we start enough S1 seeds) just how hetero/homozygous she is for each and every trait.

if I understand your question correctly, reversing a female to see what a corresponding male would look like (?).... doesn't do much good because the look of the male isnt what we are interested in, it's his genotype and I don't think his physical appearance will have much to do with that, so saying "oh that guy looks just like the reversed Natasha 6 (for example, even though this is a Good vibes male we are testing here)" should mean little. Until the progeny has been grown and compared, its all just a crap shoot... o' course with more modern technology they have found some short cuts but that is far beyond the scope of most people and this thread.
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Old 08-02-2014, 11:39 PM #8
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You understand me correctly, I know it sounds crazy to use reversing not only for S1-ing and male potency testing LoL. I really don't know if it could work or not... that's why I ask.
I was thinking that the initial additional expenses might save time later. Wouldn't it be great if you could predict thing? Not saying this should replace test-breeding (though such practices seem to be rather common practice ;( ) but maybe it could help decide which plants to test first due their supposed better chance.
Creating a cross 'normal female x normal male' and one 'reversed female x reversed male' and compare the outcome might (should) tell which traits are inherited only by females... but then you would have to know your plants really well.

Now then, I let you to your work, watch and learn.
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Old 08-02-2014, 11:58 PM #9
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in a highly segregated population, it may prove useful to be able to see a what male version of your ideal female looks like... but I wouldn't know.
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Old 08-10-2014, 04:51 AM #10
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Excellent, excellent! Ive always wanted to see breeding in action. Only once in a great while do we get to see the male(s) used for a cross.
Im sure you can think of a few instances where the flowered female used to promote the seeds is a pic of 'one of the mothers used', or when the description says 'you should get plants' with descriptor a, b, c. Those crosses were never or are currently being tested.
I don't know how someone can put a $80 price tag on untested seeds.

As you said, many of those beans are a hodge podge marriage of highly desired genetics that people cant wait to get their hands on. They sell themselves.

Im subbing in for the long haul. You have an opportunity to set a precedent here.

----------------------------------

And because Im the way I am:

I have a Natasha on backorder from Russian Brides .com. Shes at least as sexy as #5.
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