[repuk]

Originally Posted by Absolem

Hey Dutty. Just got back from a business trip. A lot of stuff to try and cover in your post. On the Canna section I'll tell you what a plant scientist told me. This is going to be a long reply for the heads up. Lol
...

Whoa! What a superb post, thanks Absolem!

These posts and people like you sharing their knowledge is what makes ICMAG the #1 IMHO!

[siftedunity]

I still don't really understand why people would be having issues in coco with the canna coco a an b and RO water? heads formula isn't really that much off from cannas. or do you guys mean that you will only have issues with canna whilst using tap?


im planning to run the canna coco next run with a couple of tweeks but using ro.

[repuk]

From what I understand, both Canna and H34ds 6/9 will work fine with 25%/75% tap/RO, and both will suffer with the same "K is locked by too much Ca/Mg issue" if just tap water (0.4EC) is used. Clearly noticeable when I started using 75/25 rain water/tap.

@Absolem: Please correct me if I'm wrong

Originally Posted by rondon

If your tap is 0.3 -0.6 EC you can assume (but not always- need a report to be sure) its largely comprised of cacium and magnesium carbonates and some iron. Its whats in most municipal water supplies.These carbonates arent the most readily available to the plant but you can make it that way..especially for a calcium and magnesium hungry substrate like coco coir. Add a quality fulvic and amino acid (plant or fish protein hydrolysate) high in glycine to the hard tap water. Let it sit for awhile. Then add base nutrient. You just turned that hard tap water into a calmag supplement..ready to take in those previously unavailabe carbonates at the root zone. Humic/fulvic and amino acids are natural and very effective chelation agents and work particularly well in shuttling around calcium , magnesium, & iron.

Your assumption is absolutely on the spot, that's my tap water situation. Ca/Mg salts residue are easily noticeable on my used black pots once they dry, even seedlings pots! Will using the fulvic acid solution to pretreat tap water be the fix for this? Any corrections to the dosages needed? Any good and cheap available product for that? or a way of doing it at home?

That will explain why my waterings at repot time with rhyzotonic had so visible and positive effects of the plants...

Would love to go 100% salts (Yara etc), but it has been impossible to source so far, only really big quantities.

Is something like Plagron Fish Force the product you advice? Could be a problem for hydro (use coco + blumats, organics usually lead to clogging). I think I read somewhere nitric acid could be used for PH - with the added benefit of solving this Ca/Mg issue on tap water?

[Absolem]

Originally Posted by repuk

From what I understand, both Canna and H34ds 6/9 will work fine with 25%/75% tap/RO, and both will suffer with the same "K is locked by too much Ca/Mg issue" if just tap water (0.4EC) is used. Clearly noticeable when I started using 75/25 rain water/tap.

@Absolem: Please correct me if I'm wrong

Hey Repuk. Happy growing. Lurker on your thread.


Using 25% tap water and 75% RO will work just fine in most cases. Canna makes clean products and their solution profile for coco coir is pretty good. Marketing purposes Canna has to say you can use tap water or their sales would dive. They do mention if you have really bad water to use RO. For most growers I do like cutting tap with RO. It just eliminates a lot unknowns going on in the water source.

We as growers should look at tap water as a nutrient solution because it is. It contains many of the elements needed for growing plants.

Looking at two nutrient solution profiles I did for some friends who had vastly different tap water. One friend had very friendly tap water with Ca at 20 mg/l or 20 ppm. The other had tap water with Ca at 120 mg/l or 120 ppm. Cutting the tap water with Ca levels at 20 mg/l with 75% RO adds only a small amount of Ca. It adds about 5 mg/l of Ca to a solution profile. Not a big amount. Now cutting the tap water that contains 120 mg/l of Ca with 75% RO adds about 30 mg/l or 30 ppm to a nutrient solution. Adding an extra 30 mg/l of Ca to a solution profile most likely will affect the coco coir later in the growing cycle. It will slowly replace the K in the coco leading to problems during flowing.

One friend will do just fine using 25% tap water to 75% RO and the other will not do as good because of their high Ca levels.

In short get your tap water tested and treat it like the nutrient solution it is.

Peace

[siftedunity]

Originally Posted by Absolem

Hey Dutty. Just got back from a business trip. A lot of stuff to try and cover in your post. On the Canna section I'll tell you what a plant scientist told me. This is going to be a long reply for the heads up. Lol

H3ad is one hell of a grower. He knows his game when it comes to how plants react to changing the solution profile and what each element does. I give him big time kudos for understanding how coco coir works and the numbers he needs to make his plants grow the best. Let's jump in.




In H3ad's very first post he outlines the solution profile needed to run in coco. He explains why he is using those numbers for coir. I think most people glaze over the solution profile numbers and only see 6/9. In the first post he adds 1 gram of magnesium sulfate(Epsom Salt) to increase his Mg and S. He later drops the Epsom and sees no difference. Let's review some of his posts to see why he and many other people have great results using the 6/9 while some struggle.

Post #11

He clearly states adding Ca to his mix will give him problems. Yet the first thing people do when they run the 6/9 and get issues is add the ONE item he says will cause problems. He is right. Adding Ca will only cause issues.

Post #23

H3ad makes no issue with coco coir and it's pH. I agree. Here's a study that lists the pH of coco coir. It's on page 2.
https://hortsci.ashspublications.org.../2135.full.pdf


Post #158. Gives solution profile numbers for those with hard water. Recommending the GH Hard water Micro which contains NO Ca.


Post # 202.

Great information.

Post #211.

Notice H3ad is basically using RO water? Not hard water loaded with Ca

Post # 256.

H3ad is pretty clear how to use RO and when not to.


Post #259. I think this is your answer.

H3ad states how low Ca is in his tap water. H3ad uses water with very low Ca for his 6/9 formula for a reason. It's funny how people take the 6/9 formula load it with hard water from their tap which H3ad says NOT TO DO. Then when they have issues they load it up with more Ca/Mg. When he says not to.


Post # 314.

After changing a few things here and there H3ad sticks to the 6/9.


On to Canna and their low K. Many years ago I learned how to break down the solution profile for nutes like many others have as well. Being a coco grower I broke down Canna's profile and ran it. I did that by using a few bottle ferts and some salts. Sure enough the deficiency show's up week 4 of veg. I ran what would equal Canna at 8ml of A/B gallon. The low K screamed at me so the next time I filled my stock tank I adjusted for more K and the problem went right away.

So years later I have a chance to talk to a plant scientist who is heavily involved in the nutrient industry. I asked him about the low K in Canna and what he thought about it. I'll tell you more about that in a bit.


I asked the plant scientist about a deficiency I saw before and couldn't figure it out. PS explained some deficiencies can be detected by eye. But it's not the best way and your asking for issues. The PS explained he didn't want to "guess" what was going on. PS said if you want to find what the deficiency is you need your solution profile, a test of the growing medium, and a leaf tissue analysis. Then you can say for sure what is going on. PS also explained you can have many false positives by trying to read a leaf. I live around multi million dollar vineyards and they test their soil, and leaf tissue regularly. If it rains hard they can tell how many nutrients have been leached through the soil and how that will affect what is available for the plant and any issues they may run into and correct them before anything goes wrong.


Back to Canna. The PS said with the low K found in some solution profiles it will cause issues with plants specifically if they are adding Ca through their tap and adding Ca/Mg at the same time. I asked why it seems adding Ca/Mg appears to fix the problem. The PS said the Ca/Mg is NOT fixing the problem by the plant using it. It is fixing the issue because the overload of high Ca by tap water and adding Ca/Mg is forcing the stubborn K to release from the coco thus fixing the issue. The issue is usually cleared up by week 3 of flower because people increase their A/B and cut the Ca/Mg giving more of a 1/1 ratio of k/Ca. Plant roots send out positive ions into the coco medium to get nutrients. Ca++, Mg++, and K+. The + stands for how many positive hydrogen atoms the element has. As the root hairs send out positive ions for nutrients they are constantly unbinding Ca, Mg,and K from the medium. The plant takes what it needs then unused nutrients become bound by the coco again.
Because coco has a negative charge it binds with the positive charges in Ca++, Mg++, and K+ for the plants to use as they feel.


Let's finally compare H3ad to Canna. Why does H3ad's formula work with RO and using almost identical Ca numbers but he experiences NO Ca deficiency?


Canna Coco A/B@ 8ml/gallon. Canna Boost @ 10ml/gallon. Total......................H3a d
N..........121................ .......................0...... ..........................121. ..................97
P...........42................ ........................12.... ...........................54. ...................60
K..........60................. .......................22..... ..........................82.. .................105
Ca........98.................. .......................0...... ..........................98.. ..................97
Mg.......33................... .......................0...... .........................33... .................41
S.........15.................. ........................0..... ...........................15. ..................27

Adding 10ml/gallon of Boost really helps the K number. I think to many people short themselves on the K in Canna because Boost will Break your wallet.

Let's look at Canna a different way that will get us much closer to H3ad solution profile.

Canna Coco 8ml/gal. Yara SOP 52(potassium sulfate) @ 1/2 gram to a gallon. Total
N.............121............. ....................0......... .............................. ...................121
P..............42............. ......................0....... .............................. .....................42
K.............60.............. ....................57........ .............................. ...................107
Ca...........98............... ....................0......... .............................. ....................98
Mg..........33................ ...................0.......... .............................. ...................33
S.............15.............. ....................24........ .............................. ....................39


Absolem's Canna Profile with Yara SOP 52.......... H3ads 6/9
N........121.................. .............................. .......97
P.........42.................. .............................. ........60
K.......107................... .............................. ......105
Ca......98.................... .............................. .......97
Mg.....33..................... .............................. ......41
S.......39.................... .............................. .......27

These are the numbers I gave my Canna friends before they switched to Jacks. They would run this till the end of week one of 12/12 to help reduce the stretch. Then drop the Yara SOP 52 down to 1/4 gram/gallon and add Pk 13/14 at rate of 2.5mls/gallon for a P=37 and K=77 through weeks 2-5 of 12/12.

Canna runs a very strict 3-1 Ca to Mg in their formula. When people add hardwater to Canna it throws off the Ca/Mg ratios which are important to maintain. So why does H3ad's formula work in coco with RO water but Canna says to run tap water? H3ad's works because he simply doesn't overload the Ca into the coco limiting the K. I'm guessing Canna doesn't want people to feel like they have to use RO water thus not buying their gear. For ease, cost, and quality I like H3ad's numbers better than Canna.

EDIT 7-10-2017. In the sentence below I had the Ca and K backwards. The sentence is now correct.
I feel a solution profile can only handle 30mg/l more of K than Ca or your solution profile will cause you issues in coco.
(Amended sentence 7-10-2017). This is why H3ad runs close to a 1/1 with his K and Ca.

the only thing im kinda confused about. is the k thing. I thought if it had more positive charges, it was more stubborn to be released from the negatively charged media? but ca has two and k only one?

[Absolem]

Originally Posted by siftedunity

the only thing im kinda confused about. is the k thing. I thought if it had more positive charges, it was more stubborn to be released from the negatively charged media? but ca has two and k only one?

Ca with it's two positive charges does have a stronger bond than K but the bond doesn't last as long as K with it's single positive charge. As the number of positive charges increase bond time decreases. Stubborn K in the sense that under normal feeding conditions the Ca wouldn't push as much K out of the coir. But with the increase of CaMg products or tap water with high Ca it just forces more K out than normal.

[siftedunity]

ok cool. I didn't realise that. but surely if we are feeding a good amount of K in the feed, we shouldn't have this issue. im thinking of running the canna coco a+b with bigbud. which I love. I don't mind dropping the advanced bases but I like the bb.
theses are the number I worked out it should get me to..



Canna Coco A/B@ 8ml/gallon. big bud at 8ml/gal ................. total ...... h3ad
N..........121................ ...................0.......... ......................121..... .... 97
P...........42................ ...................9.......... ........................51 ......... 60
K..........60................. ...................53......... ......................113 ......... 105
Ca........98.................. ..................0........... ......................98 ........... 97
Mg.......33................... ..................0........... ......................33 ........... 41
S.........15.................. ..................0........... .......................15..... ....... 27


with ro water. so these number will be the exact numbers (well not exact but within that kinda range at least). just wondering..if canna says I should use tap (marketing or not) should I add any cal mag supplements or do these numbers look ok?? looks good to me.

[repuk]

Just found an analysis on the water supplier web, it's not too detailed but it's recent (Jan 2018) and I think it's representative, maybe on the slightly optimistic side, but figures matches what I "see" with my EC/Redox/PH meters (I also take care of the swimming pool):

---------

Free Chlorine Levels, mg/L 0,7
pH 8,0
Turbidity, NTU 0,08
Hardness, ºF 12,9

EC µS/cm @ 20ºC 274
Chlorides mg/L 13,2
Sodium mg/L 11,1
Sulfates mg/L 31,8
Calcium mg/L 34,4
Magnesium mg/L 10,5
Bicarbonates mg/L 117
Dry Residue mg/L 192
-------------------

That bicarbonates figure puzzled me...

Found a more detailed one with averages of samples taken throughout January... that doesn't list Ca!?!?

----
Parameter # Description Quantified_Value Reference_Value Unit Quantified_Limit
001 Escherichia coli 0 UFC/100 ml. 0 0
002 Enterococcum 0 UFC/100 ml. 0 0
003 Clostridium perfingens 0 UFC/100 ml. 0 0
004 Antimonium 0,146 µg/L 5 0,1
005 Arsenium 0,425 µg/L 10 0,1
006 Benzene < QL µg/L 1 0,5
007 Benzo(a) Pyrene < QL µg/L 0.01 0,005
008 Boron 0,012 mg/L 1 0,005
009 Bromate < QL µg/L 10 5
010 Cadmium 0,023 µg/L 5 0,02
011 Cyanide < QL mg/L 50 0,005
012 Copper < QL mg/L 2 0,1
013 Chromium < QL µg/L 50 1
014.1.2 Dicloroethane < QL µg/L 3 0,5
015 Fluoride < QL mg/L 1.5 0,19
016 Polycyclic Aromatic Hidrocarbons < QL µg/L 0.1 0,01
017 Mercury 0,027 µg/L 1 0,02
018 Microcistine < QL µg/L 1 0,4
019 Nickel 1,411 µg/L 1 1
020 Nitrate < QL mg/L 50 5
021 Nitrites < QL µg/L 0.1 0,05
022 plaguicides total < QL µg/L 0.5 0,01
024 Lead 1,620 µg/L 10 1
025 Selenium < QL µg/L 10 0,1
026 Trihalometanes (THMs) 26,900 µg/L 100 0,5
027 Tricloroetane + Tetracloroetane 0,536 µg/L 10 0,5
031 Coliforme Bacteria 0 UFC/100 ml. 0 0
032 Colony Count @ 22ºC 0 UFC/1 ml. 100 0
033 Aluminum 58,429 µg/L 200 50
034 Ammonium < QL mg/L 0.5 0,2
037 Free Chlorine residue 0,949 mg/L 1 0,2
038 Chlorides 17,657 mg/L 250 10
039 Color 1,571 mg Pt-Co/L 15 0
040 Conductivity 248,143 µS/cm @ 20ºC 2500 133
041 Iron 21,429 µg/L 200 0
042 Manganese 4 µg/L 50 1
043 Odour 1 In. Dil. 3 0
045 pH 7,851 pH 0 3,0
046 Taste 1,000 In. Dil. 3 0
047 Sodium 11,086 mg/L 200 0,5
048 Sulphates 15,571 mg/L 250 0
049 Turbidity < QL UNF 5 0,5
050 Hardness 10,6 ºF - 0
---

Originally Posted by absolem

Hey Repuk. Happy growing. Lurker on your thread.

a pleasure! will try to do it better next run...

[Absolem]

Originally Posted by siftedunity

ok cool. I didn't realise that. but surely if we are feeding a good amount of K in the feed, we shouldn't have this issue. im thinking of running the canna coco a+b with bigbud. which I love. I don't mind dropping the advanced bases but I like the bb.
theses are the number I worked out it should get me to..



Canna Coco A/B@ 8ml/gallon. big bud at 8ml/gal ................. total ...... h3ad
N..........121................ ...................0.......... ......................121..... .... 97
P...........42................ ...................9.......... ........................51 ......... 60
K..........60................. ...................53......... ......................113 ......... 105
Ca........98.................. ..................0........... ......................98 ........... 97
Mg.......33................... ..................0........... ......................33 ........... 41
S.........15.................. ..................0........... .......................15..... ....... 27


with ro water. so these number will be the exact numbers (well not exact but within that kinda range at least). just wondering..if canna says I should use tap (marketing or not) should I add any cal mag supplements or do these numbers look ok?? looks good to me.

Hey Siftedunity. Great job breaking down your nutrient profile. I've given several friends nutrient profiles and it gives them security knowing when something goes wrong they know it's not their nutrients.


I think your numbers look good. I might drop the Big Bud down to 7 ml for veg getting your Ca and K closer to 1/1 ratio. Then run that through veg and your first week of 12/12. Phosphorus is the element responsible for plants stretching during flower not nitrogen.

Check this thread for the high P myth.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread....th+high&page=6

Flower weeks 3-5 try kicking your P closer to 80 ppm and up your K to 130-150.

1 g/gallon of Epsom adds

Mg=26 ppm
S=34 ppm

Sulfur is one of the main elements for bringing out the flavor in cannabis. I would add 1/4 g/gallon of Epsom starting the second week of 12/12.


Happy growing.

[siftedunity]

wow thanks for your advice. yes I will try what you said for sure! is it cool to use regular food grade Epsom salts?