HGL vs Bysen

Lazyeye · Mar 20, 2013

Kind of weird topic, I know. Didn't know what else to chose to describe it. In my research of LED's and it's manufacturers and retailers I naturally came across alot of weird stuff regarding HGL. Doesn't seem to be a well operating company. Someone said that Bysen made their 2nd generation lights (the x2 lights) and HGL bought them, and then turned it in to a huge profit for themselfes. I decided to investigate this a bit so I started a mail conversation with Bysen, and HGL.

For simplicity I'll quote them in separate posts. There will be alot of text, so if you're not interested then there is no need to go through it all.

I'd like your thoughts on this whole thing, if you got the time and will.

(Conversations coming in following posts)

Lazyeye · Mar 20, 2013

Conversation between me and a woman named Alice at Bysen LED. Her English isn't great, but she is from somewhere in Asia. I'm sure you will get the message.

Lazyeye said:
I got forwarded to your site from a growforum. Your leds with the X2 lens looks very similar to the hydrogrow leds. Is there any difference between the two?
What's your pricetag on your x2 leds?

Alice said:
This is Alice from bysen lighting company which is the first to produce led grow light in china with 8 years.

In fact, we are original supply of American dydrogrow, she ordered X2 series lights from our factory and
Drop ship to their customers directly last days. they always resell these light with very high profit. as the
Factory, the price and quality has been balanced very well by us.

The module design X2 series light has many features than regular light in market

A, Module design, if products are broken ,customers don't need to send total lights back ,we just need to
Send free module or accessory to customers, saving 99% shipping cost compared with other regular light.
And the light can be repaired well in 3 minutes even customers don't know about led grow light at all.

B, 3Watt double-lens led as lighting source to ensure super light efficiency.

C. The exact Spectrum be built in light, it can be absorbed by plants totally and increase 25% yeild for plants.

D, Our patent product, it can protect our customers market and avoid sharp competitive in the market.

Are you used grow light by personal or resell in market? does these light is you are looking for?

Which item do you like best?

Looking forward your reply again.

Thanks and best regards,

Here I got a pricelist of their x2 leds, and a photocopy of their patent. The patent looked legit, the pricelist are as following (I'll use HGL names on the LED's as they are more known):

21x-PRO 36W - $79
84x-PRO 120W - $157
126X-PRO 200W - $240
168X-PRO 270W - $349.50
189X-PRO 290W - $379
336X-PRO 500W - $577

Remember, this is the price when buying in bulk. I think it's when buying 5 or 10 at a time. I'll get to the part where I got an offer for only one light.

Lazyeye said:
Thanks for your speedy reply!

So what you're telling me is that your leds and hydrogrows leds use the exact same number of led lights, at the exact same wavelength, just that hydrogrow is alot more expensive?

I don't really know wich one I need right now, they are all interesting. I got a Secret Jardin DR90 Twin. The problem is the room I have the tent is have very limited venting possibilities. Right now I run a 600w HPS dimmed down to 400W because it gets too hot at 600. This is the main reason I am now looking at LED's, they are supposed to emit much less heat than HPS? Basically I want a light thay stays cool and that can compete with a 600W HPS yield wise. Is the SP113D-560W my best bet?

I see n the document you attached that there are specifications:

R(660nm):B(470nm):
R(640nm):B(440nm):
IR(740nm):G(525nm)
=160pcs:32pcs:64pc
s:32pcs:32pcs:16pcs

Should I read this like there are 32pcs at 660, 64pcs at 470, 32pcs at 640, 32 pcs at 440, and 16 on 740? What about the 525?

And Hydrogrow uses the exact same amount of lights at the exact same wavelength? Reason I'm asking is because I've seen journals using HGL lights, doing very good.

I will use the lights myself by the way, not reselling.

Alice said:
Good morning!

Yes, we make the X2 series light for hydrogrow at beginning. if you order the same light from us, the led's performance and quality
Be made by the same person. Hydrogrow as a distributor, so the price much more expensive than original factory.

We are sure that LED light emit much less heat than HPS, as LED diodes is cold lighting source, when you plants need more
Light please lower down the height, the light wouldn't burn the plants even close to the plants.

If you want get the biggest gains, 560W light is the best choose, this watt light can replace 600W HPS/MH light very well.

For our X2-336PCSX3W-560w light, the exact spectrum ratio is R(660nm)=160PCS, B(470nm)=32PCS, R(640nm)=64PCS,
B(440nm)=32PCS, IR(740nm)=32PCS, G(525nm)=16pcs

Do you like this ratio?

Please inform if you want to order these light, the proforma invoice will be sent you.

Lazyeye said:
Do you know how much less heat a LED will produce than a HPS, percentagewise?

I'm still too new to LED's to know if that is a good ratio, but I will ask my friend who is a veteran grower. As you can tell, I don't know a whole lot about LED's. How can 336 pieces at 3w a piece be 560W? Am I missing something?

Is it possible to just buy one light? I saw in your pricelist that price is when you order 5 pieces.

Sorry Alice, I forgot two questions!

What brand are the led diods?
What brand is the chipset?

My friend = this forum

Alice said:
Thank you very much for your mail.

Comparing with HPS light, the LED light produce less about 40~50% heat energy. led’s beam anlge is downwards directly and don't any waste,
You don’t need to buy additional bulky reflector like MH/HPS. the exact wavelength can be absorbed by plants totally.

Maybe you are strange why the model can't reach at actual power, in led field, we definite the power as below,
Red/orange voltage:2.3V/1w
Red/orange voltage:2.6V/3w
White/blue voltage:3.2V/1w
White/blue voltage:3.6V/3W

1w chip current: 0.3A±0.1
2w chip current: 0.4A±0.1 ( some factory make 0.5A±0.1)
3w chip current: 0.5A±0.1 ( some factory make 0.7A±0.1)

P(electric power)=U(voltage)XI(current), the total power including LEDS+Fans+power supply+etc.

As you know, if LED current be improved, the power will become more higher, but, we don't do it like this? basis on many years producing and customer's feedback info to see, our engineer knew that higher led current is not good for small area LED heat dissipation. We always make top quality light to ensure customer retain long lasting reputable in their grow light filed. if the light are broken in the short time, I think the end user will think the light is a junk. Many big customers from American and Europe require us to make the light according to LED’s feature. I believe you would understand for them.

My friend, to be honest, as the factory, our MOQ is 4pcs for each item, does your other friends also are interested in these item? if no, I will try my best to apply
One item for you, do you think is ok?

Alice said:
Besides blue light use bridgelux diodes as lighting source, the other spectrum use Epistar diodes.
Please note it.

Alice said:
Hope you had a nice weekend

In order to build a nice start and long lasting cooperate with you, I applied one sample X2-336PCSX3W-560w
With very reasonable price for you, please check the details information as proforma invoice.

The price I was offered was $765 for one "336X-PRO", shipped. She also supplied me with bank details and informed that they also accept paypal.

Lazyeye said:
I did, thanks. I hope you had the same!

I think that is a great gesture from you and your company! Thanks!
However I need to finish this grow before I can reinvest in new equipment. Will the offer stand?

When purchasing I'd like to use paypal.

You said the order will hit product line once you get the money. How long will it take for you to produce it and have it shipped to me?

Alice said:
Thanks for your kind mail

My friend, please note that the quote is valid within this month, because we apply the quote as a special order.

As factory, we don't stock any additional goods on the warehouse, unless the long lasting cooperator customer
Purchase the OEM item every month. when new customer's have an demand for the lights, we will arrange to
Product line, it will take 5 working days can be shipped. and the shipping time will take 4~5 days from china to American.
So you can receive the goods about 10 days.

Does the lead time is ok for you?

Lazyeye said:
I can't buy it this month. I'll send you a mail when I can and see if you can help me out.

Thanks for all your time and patience.

Alice said:
Good day!

I confirmed with our superior whether the price are available in the next month,
However he don't give me the exact answer.

May I know what's problem if you order the item in this time? if you want us
To prepare the lights ahead, would you send the 30% deposit for this item,
Then the goods can be sent once you need.

Any of your words would be highly appreciated.

That's the entire mail conversation we had. I think she is very patient and helpful. But I keep getting this nagging feeling that she's trying to rush a deal. People who rush deals never have a "clean bag" in my experience.

HGL conversation coming up.

Lazyeye · Mar 20, 2013

HGL conversation between me and Donnie:

Lazyeye said:
I have a few questions regarding the 336-PRO.

1. How many lights of each wavelength does it use?
2. What brand are the leds?
3. What kind of circuits is it using?

Thanks in advance

[QUOTE"Donnie"]I would be glad to answer your questions about the 336x-Pro model!

1. The light uses 6 wavelengths, approximately 80% of these wavelengths are in the red spectrum and the other 20% is in the blue.

440nm, 470nm, 525nm, 640nm, 660nm, 740nm

[FONT=verdana, geneva]2. Because there is no "best" company for all spectrum's we shop around. Our lights are composed of led's from: Bridgelux, Epistar and SemiLED [FONT=verdana, geneva] [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, geneva]
[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, geneva]3. As far as the circuit board it is pure aluminum' not some cheap PCB board'[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, geneva]
[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, geneva]If you have any more question please let me know or checkout the 336X-Pro product page on our website.[/FONT]
[/QUOTE]

Note that here he says they use the same brand of led's.

Lazyeye said:
Do you know the actual number of lights of each wavelength? I am interested in the ratio. I'm comparing to a few other lights.

Donnie said:
90% of the red spectrum is split between 640 and 660, the rest is 740, same with blue 90% is half 440nm and half 470nm, with the rest being 545.

What other units where you comparing ours too?

I find it kind of weird that he can't specify the amount of lights of each wavelength?

Lazyeye said:
Currently comparing to http://www.bsled.com/led-grow-light/sp113d-560w.html

Donnie said:
Thanks for clarifying! I though maybe you were one of the ones that actually though that was a Hydro Grow light not someone whom knows that it is a copy and is considering it as an equal. Boy well where do I begin, honestly I really have nothing to compare. I have seen that counterfeit version many many times before.

To make things easier, what makes you think that unit can compare to ours?

They provide zero information on par output or spectral wavelengths the only real information you need...Have you ever heard of someone having good result with a knock off light like this?

The bottom line is WE cannot even produce our lights for their price, we sell more LED grow lights than every other one of these tiny manufactures put together. We also have an awesome purchasing power that gets our raw materials for a much lower cost than any of these counterfeit companies "not that they would use the quality parts we do". what makes you think some small time vendor can copy our exact light sell it for half the price and still make a profit?, come on, you know better than that!

Please understand we have our own factory and nobody knows exactly how we make our lights. These sellers may even think them selves it is an exact copy but I can assure you it is not. Without knowing what your getting from this company in china how can you expect it to perform like ours? just because they claims it does? That all you need to compare it to our mounds and mounds of technical data and customer reviews?

Also, there not in America "Item location: ShenZhen, China"

this is what happens, later on after you buy there knock off version and are greatly disappointed there is ABSOLUTELY nothing you can do about it. You have lost your money and you have absolutely no contact for replacement parts or warranty either. Try contacting the company after they already have your ,money."gooood luck"

When buying LED grow lights there comes point when you need some brand loyalty, our LED Grow lights aren't as simple as they seem, or as simple as these knock off companies want you to believe. They know once they have your money that it, its over, they are paid and you get your brand new spanking piece of crap Hydro Grow knock off.

I truly hope you get the sincerity of this message, I hate hearing about people whom have tried to save even a few hundred bucks on one of these unit thinking they really had a hydro grow light.Very very disappointed people scammed out of there money. Hopefully you don't walk right into that situation.

Lazyeye said:
They actually say that they were your original supplier.
I've also asked what kind of led diods they use, same brand as you use. And the same wavelength. They use the following ratio:
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]R(660nm) 160pcs. B(470nm) 32pcs. R(640nm) 64pcs B(440nm) 32pcs. IR(740nm) 32pcs G(525nm)16pcs.
I get your point though, but I'm not located in America the country doesn't really matter to me. I only care about the light delivering.[/FONT]

Donnie said:
[FONT=verdana, geneva]No problem. Like I said, that company tries to make money using the typical Lie, cheat, steal business practices of China. Sure they claim its like our, because they know there's nothing you can do about it once they have your money.[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, geneva]
[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, geneva]I have helped dozens of customers whom have been dooped into buying this, thinking it was a hydro grow product. you will be another sad faced person if you also fall into this trap..[/FONT]

[FONT=verdana, geneva]every aspect of that unit is a cheap low quality knock off. They will mail it to you, you will be very disappointed, and you will be shopping for a new grow light.[/FONT]

This is the entire conversation between me and Donnie. Maybe he's a good guy and trying to help me out. But I'm getting the feeling he's up on some high horses thinking all other lights are inferior to his? Also I find it weird he didn't even comment on them claiming to be the original provider to HGL.

Anyhow, what's your take on this people?

medmaker420 · Mar 20, 2013

edited

you are right there is NOTHING to see here

lol

Lazyeye · Mar 20, 2013

I'm sure it has medmaker. But I have only found hearsay, this is an actual conversation between me and both parties. And no disrespect, but I stated right at the beginning that if you're not interested, then there's nothing to see here.

It might be an old discussion for some, for me it's not. And I havn't found any threads on any forum that's not flamed to shit.

VerdantGreen · Mar 21, 2013

such is the hate for HGL from some people that it's impossible to have an objective discussion about this.

ive posted in threads before and got attacked. i have heard about the whole saga step by step from HGL over the last couple of years.

one thing that we can all agree on is that the chinese are well known for knocking off successful products and producing cheep copies of them.. a few other LED companies have had this happen to them as well, not to mention countless other products.
not used the bysen knock off so cant say for sure, not seen a grow finished with them either...
but there have been very few exceptions to my life experience that 'you get what you pay for'

VG

lazylathe · Mar 21, 2013

I had the same discussion with a guy from BYSEN.

His version was that they were originally making the lights and then a few employees left to form HGL.
They still supply the new company with the LED's but now HGL sells them for a higher price.

They may have fancier casings and different paint but essentially they are the same units.

One issue i have had with my units from Bysen is that the cooling fans keep breaking!
The plastic cracks and that is the end of the fans.
I have exchanged 4 of the fans for higher quality PC fans and they are a lot quieter and more efficient.

I have been in communication with Bysen and they say they have changed the type and quality of the fan in the units being produced now.

If anyone wants to see pics of the lights, fans or replacements just let me know!

hempfield · Mar 21, 2013

lazylathe said:
If anyone wants to see pics of the lights, fans or replacements just let me know!

Post them here as many of us are curious to see what this units are made of.

Thanks ! :thank you:

lazylathe · Mar 21, 2013

Bysen LED lights

Bysen LED lights

Here are the pics of the lights as requested and the fan changes!
At work so it will just be pictures, i am sure you guys know what you are looking at! :biggrin:

X3 lenses used on my lights

Each pod of lights has it's own heatsink

Continued...

lazylathe · Mar 21, 2013

Neat wire work

Everything is quick connect

Lights on

Happy auto flowering plants under the light

lazylathe · Mar 21, 2013

fan issues

fan issues

These are the broken fans

Replaced with blue LED computer fans, high efficiency and very quiet!

Installed fan

A bit later i installed two more fans to replace broken ones

I am thinking of just replacing all the fans at once to prevent any further set backs.

Hope this helps out!

lazylathe · Mar 21, 2013

And a comment from above having not seen a grow with the Bysen LED's.
Here is a pic of some Barney's Farm Pineapple Express autos and a cross of G HazeXC99 auto
all grown from the start using these lights.

A group shot

A G HazeXC99 bud

I don't have a close up of the BF Pineapple Express..

Another of the G Haze X C99

You can see the trich's forming all over the place.
So far the lights seem to be doing pretty good!
I will know for sure at harvest time in about a month!

medmaker420 · Mar 21, 2013

Lazyeye said:
I'm sure it has medmaker. But I have only found hearsay, this is an actual conversation between me and both parties. And no disrespect, but I stated right at the beginning that if you're not interested, then there's nothing to see here.

It might be an old discussion for some, for me it's not. And I havn't found any threads on any forum that's not flamed to shit.

no offense there bud but we have all had "conversations" with these companies and what YOU are posting is heresay just like everyone else who has. you are not providing anything NEW to the debate, you are just late to it.

but by all means, carry on with the he said she said...

VerdantGreen · Mar 21, 2013

thanks for the pics, your plants look nice!

yeah the fans are different in the hgl ones and so are the heatsinks - HGL ones have copper cores and their logo on them.

also Bysen have called their lens X3, whilst the HGL ones are X2, again with their logo on them.
when HGL moved from bysen and re-designed their cases etc, they managed to get another 15% efficiency from their lights compared to the red cased ones afaik.

VG

Lazyeye · Mar 22, 2013

Thanks alot for the pictures! The lights seem to work pretty good.

What have you been using to grow before these lights? What's your take on them? Keep us updated!

lazylathe · Mar 22, 2013

When i first started growing i used MH and HPS and it worked out pretty well.
Then i took a break from growing for 8 years, my wife was not keen on the idea...

Then i picked it up again and started out using 2 240W BlackStar LED's.
They worked okay but i felt it was not enough, the way most feel when switching over from HID to LED. If the light is not blinding then it must not be enough...And how wrong was i!

Then after some research i found out about Ceramic metal halide lamps.
So i used them for a while but also had to buy a portable AC unit to cool the room down.
They worked exceptionally well but the hydro bill went through the roof!
That did not make my wife very happy at all...

More research done and i found Bysen and saw some good results using these LED's.
Luckily i got in at just the right time during their Spring festival when they had them discounted.
Ordered two of them and swapped out the CMH for the LED's.
I may have stressed the plants out a bit, not too sure by the abrupt change of lights.
The plants look great and are going to be harvested this weekend.
I will post some pics of the fresh buds this weekend.

I dried a few of the lower small buds of my Killing Fields, nice and purple, and they were killer! I have not had a smoke that put me in stitches of laughter for years!

The next grow i do will be 100% LED from start to finish and that is when i will get the best idea of what these lights can really do.

The buds i put up above had about 2 weeks of light spill from the CMH before the LED's were put up, so that should not have affected them too much.

Lazyeye · Mar 22, 2013

Thanks lazy!

Definitley interested in your yield when you're done.

Will you make a journal on your next grow?

lazylathe · Mar 22, 2013

For sure!
I am on a few other forums where it has been posted.

These gals went through hell and pulled through looking alright!
Here are a few pics of them for you!

This is the Killing Fields. I topped her and she turned into a shrub!

I don't seem to have any decent bud shots of her for some reason...

******s Jack

MadShack

Will update on Saturday with more bud porn!

Lazyeye · Mar 22, 2013

What does your grow area look like lazy?
Wich one of the byzen lights are you using?
How big of a footprint?

lazylathe · Mar 23, 2013

Grow area is a custom room i built.
It is 8X11

The grow area looks like a mess right now since it has been through so many changes...
Once everything is done it will get a facelift and everything will be set up correctly.

I have two of these lights from Bysen
http://www.bsled.com/led-grow-light/sp112d-315w.html

And two Blackstar LEDS

HGL vs Bysen

Member

Member

Member

The Aardvarks LED Grow Show

Member

Genetics Facilitator

Member

Organic LED Grower

Member

Member

Member

Member

The Aardvarks LED Grow Show

Genetics Facilitator

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member