help me explain the chemical fert vs organics debate better

High, everyone
I have a VERY basic understanding of chemistry (NOT from a school, though) a basic idea of soil make-up, composting, nutrient cycling, etc. And even have a slight understanding of chem salt fert

Now, im telling my only real-life friend, tomorrow, that " I cant say anything to you about those chem nutes, because I use butane to extract goodies sometimes(if the plant has PM), and take pharmaceutical pain killers(although this is day 3 with none.. and booooo), so i support that industry too...
But when I asked him "would you drink the stuff in that barrel?" he said NO, would you?"...uh, yeah, its water and worm shit, why not?

But I want to be able to lay concret facts, not 'dude, the way they make those chems(no facts, just seeing a polluting china factory in my mind) and transportation, and getting them rich...that stuff goes in the ground, its water soluble, so it gets in the water table so you may drink it anyways(no, his spring is uphill, but still..)
in reality i wouldve taken a swig from his rezzie, it woulda been okay, a little nitric acid and lots of water, way more alkaline than my stomach)
but can anyone link me to specific shit? school me more on any of these subjects? got any good oneliners?

His nugs, incedently, dont smell as good as mine. but are huge and hard...is there an organic ammendment that accounts for dense buds?
Dank you

Read the book "Teaming with Microbes". It's very well written, interesting, entertaining, and packed full of what you're looking for. You'll end up with many valid talking points for the "organic debate", and you'll be a better gardner.

im sure a lot of the regulars here will laugh at this one,but "secrets of the soil" is a good read if for no other reason than to open your eyes to the possibilities of whats out there,a lot of it is pretty far out though...

simply put, if we compare to human consumption....chem ferts are like mutlivitamines we get at the store, where as organic would be like eating fruits and veggies


they both give us nutrition, but one is made in a lab

let me make it easy for you

natural soil is alive, and the live within is microbial and is self managing and regulating in a balance healthy ecosystem (or micro ecosystem in come cases)

give the soil what it needs to remain balanced and healthy and it will do the same for the plant in a far more complex diverse relationship in which the plant and soil evolved over millions of years

one of the main benefits beyond core macro and micro nutrients availability that living soil provides to a plant is disease immunity

in a chemical based grow or synthetic grow you are proving the macro and micro nutrients in ionic form, the least of what a plant needs to survive

this is why chem grows rely on controlled environments and/or pesticides and fungicides because the plants lack of microbiology in the rhizosphere

the plant rhizosphere has evolved a very complex relationship with the diverse living microbiology that goes far beyond basic plant nutrient requirements and science is just starting to explore and understand

there is also transitional farming where you apply a hybrid of both techniques

Thanks
Ive read a lot of teaming with microbes
You said a lot, Wierd, when you said "this is why chem grows rely on controlled environments and/or pesticides and fungicides because the plants lack of microbiology in the rhizosphere "

he uses sulfur burning and all that, and has a sealed room( i am planning on that, for co2 and ac/dehumidifier)
But how can i explain why the chemicals are bad? like hard science? like, what are the harmful effects, of the production of them, or the use of them?

And what can i use to get rock hard nugz, organically? the same strain(altho the blue dream isnt done yet), and while im still not unhappy, per se, when i see that strains potential, i almost want to go buy coco and chems(*NOT*)

and weird... in your signature....till we all fall down? (~);}

al-k-mist said:

Thanks
Ive read a lot of teaming with microbes
You said a lot, Wierd, when you said "this is why chem grows rely on controlled environments and/or pesticides and fungicides because the plants lack of microbiology in the rhizosphere "

he uses sulfur burning and all that, and has a sealed room( i am planning on that, for co2 and ac/dehumidifier)
But how can i explain why the chemicals are bad? like hard science? like, what are the harmful effects, of the production of them, or the use of them?

And what can i use to get rock hard nugz, organically? the same strain(altho the blue dream isnt done yet), and while im still not unhappy, per se, when i see that strains potential, i almost want to go buy coco and chems(*NOT*)

and weird... in your signature....till we all fall down? (~);}

Click to expand...

one of my fav dead tunes and i caught it live with furthur, special to me because it was rarely played by any incarnation of the dead or the members of the dead and i caught it through almost supernatural if not completely spontaneous and serendipitous when this song was a background music for my being and hearing it completed me on son many levels

but back to chem versus living organics

properly applied chemical grows are not dangerous because they were grown with chemicals

the problem is people don't properly control environments and then rely on various reactive techniques to save their investment of time energy and money

it is normally in the way of fungicides and pesticides which especially in a closed environment pose an additional health threat

now also overfed and under flushed chemically grown pot has different burn properties as documented in chemically grown tobacco

these differences in smoke composition also can cause issues

harsh smoke that makes you cough and scars lung tissue can lead to cancer later on in life

i dont want to turn this into a shit storm im just saying hte plant evolved to manage all these variables on its own with the living soil and our recreation of hte process opens a whole new plethora of issues a whole new Pandora box if you will

al-k-mist said:

Thanks
Ive read a lot of teaming with microbes
You said a lot, Wierd, when you said "this is why chem grows rely on controlled environments and/or pesticides and fungicides because the plants lack of microbiology in the rhizosphere "

he uses sulfur burning and all that, and has a sealed room( i am planning on that, for co2 and ac/dehumidifier)
But how can i explain why the chemicals are bad? like hard science? like, what are the harmful effects, of the production of them, or the use of them?

And what can i use to get rock hard nugz, organically? the same strain(altho the blue dream isnt done yet), and while im still not unhappy, per se, when i see that strains potential, i almost want to go buy coco and chems(*NOT*)

and weird... in your signature....till we all fall down? (~);}

Click to expand...

heres a simple way to think of it...chem nutes = fast food..contains something approximating nutrition but a lot of crap along with it... organics = fresh fruits and veggies,whole grains etc.


first step to getting tight organic nugs,get your room totally dialed in,second...learn learn learn...90% of what goes wrong with plants is due to bad cultivation practices or bad growing conditions.

What they said^^^^

If you take the human body as an example.

Organic would be eating a well balanced diet, being aware of where the food originated and choosing carefully our source of water, only using natural remedies. Plenty of exercise, having a good routine, lifting weights etc to keep everything running well and our muscles, joints etc strong and having a good complexion and healthy bright eyes, hair etc


Chem growing is like taking shortcuts for everything. Steroids for muscle mass, mass produced meats and vegetables grown with chemicals, hormones etc. Pills from the doctor for every ailment, taking the car for a 3 min journey instead of walking, not caring so much what toxins our body consumes. Plastic surgery and lap bands instead of healthy exercise...

Organics is all about a holistic approach where as chem growing is the quick fix, convenience in a bottle and be damned with the consequences...

Plants uptake in-organic minerals directly.

Most commerciallyfertilizers are synthetically made, in-organic nutrients. So they are available immediately but wash away quicky.

Organic material [carbon] is broken down by micro-life/enzymes which breakdown or shit out in-organic nutrients that the plants uptake freely or thru symbiosis [myco, nitrate fixing bacteria, etc.] Humus also develops which acts as nature's battery[storing/outputting], basically the bestest and weirdest organism in my opinion.

Thanks everybody
BUT...
like, how are chem ferts bad, specifically and/or citable scientific shit
He wont go for hippie stuff, ive tried. and he eats nongmo and organic, doesnt smoke his hash w a lighter(rarely smokes weed) and is a hippie at heart, just uses shit that gets him hella pounds.
I dont care to go that route, and am confident of whats gonna pop off this year, but how do i convey my message to him, with love, but pointing out REAL flaws

what do they use in veg or flower ferts, pottasium hydroxide, nitric acid phosphoric acid(macro) and micronutrient profiles using blended elements? very little extracts
how are these nutes bad?

I feel like I am in an AA meeting..

My names High Life 45 and I use chem ferts while eating og non gmo foods.

I was growing all organic with great results. Life changed I moved 45min away. I was not able to be at the garden as much and my partners could not keep up the slack. The garden failed miserably without my constant care.

Now we use chem ferts because they are cheap and easy to use.
I would love to go to compost teas and feed the soils rather than the plant but I fear my partners couldn't keep up with the workload. It was a let down when the last garden fizzled out.
Plus I spent $150 for 1 years worth of nutes.
Still I kinda feel guilty for not growing og. Now I have other gardens and opportunity to get back in the dirt so to say.

That being said.....as far as organic.... I think the best and most conscious way to grow would be "veganic" with worm compost.

bone meal and fish meal usually comes from slaughterhouse environments and are not certified organic most of the time

Bat guano is not known for being sustainably harvested coming from bat caves...

How sustainable is it to get humus from alaska when you are in colorado or cali?


On top of all that banter, any compounds without carbon utilized by the plant are not "organic" ....so are you thinking of organic from a chemists standpoint or an agricultural standpoint.


I am working on some OG grows building soils, boosting the microbial population, and letting the bacteria and fungi be the chemists of the soil and feed my plants for me.

Just being honest and sharing some perspectives even if a dont always subscribe to them.

I like alot of the metaphors that have been used.

HL45

al-k-mist said:

Thanks everybody
BUT...
like, how are chem ferts bad, specifically and/or citable scientific shit

Click to expand...

Its purely put not sustainable. You do not recycle the soil, its basically garbage once you run the chem's through it. The synthetic run-off harms the water table, the plant is missing its microbe counterparts that help fight disease and insect deterrents, also void is the beneficial insect piece (which helps keep harmful insects away, aeration, nutrient cycling and flora movement), you are not experiencing natural selection, RIO (return of investment) , non use of PH meters and TDS pens, cycling all counter products of MJ (leaves, stems, etc) etc and etc..
Not even touching on the health aspects, toxicity of using insecticides and fungicides, or just enjoying nature the way it was intended....

That's my take on it anyways...

you should be more concerned with the brix and pH of your plant's sap than how hard and large your buddy's colas are

c-ray said:

you should be more concerned with the brix and pH of your plant's sap than how hard and large your buddy's colas are

Click to expand...

While I do see some value in brix readings and plant sap PH, I do not think they are vital in the overall scheme of an organic/living soil grow. I am getting fabulous results and the only thing I would really want as a tool would be a microscope.

One of the advantages of growing with living soil is the lack of tools needed to grow FANTASTIC plants period... I love the disconnect from ph pens and the sort. Its pure freedom...
This is what living soil can get you and the only thing I am going to test is how good this smokes when its dry...



Now if you can show me some high brix/perfect PH sap samples (end product) I maybe inclined to look into this further if this measurement tools helped you in such a manner...

Remember feed the soil...... Let true nature take its course....

If you can automate the watering, then the whole thing is really more a matter of return on investment. That's how I would approach it, since what he's really concerned about is the bottom line. If he's using hydro-store type fertilizers, then he's wasting a shit-ton of money and so his tack makes absolutely no sense from the bottom line standpoint.

I prefer 'set it and forget it' style growing. I use bulk inputs because of the cost, and utilizing the soil food web doesn't actually require you to constantly use ACTs. What it does require to work best is relatively constant soil moisture, because where it dries out is where microbes either die off or go into stasis.

I'm also about cheap-to-free, and so have been using a lot of FPEs and FPJs (fermented plant extracts, fermented plant juices) and teas to some good effect, and there's nothing much cheaper than using the weeds you had to pull anyway and dropping them into a bucket of water and letting that steep, then throwing that onto your plants. Same with human liquid effluent, that's damn near a complete nutrient, but must be diluted before using.

Anyway, that's my take on what you're dealing with here--ROI.

Neo 420 said:

While I do see some value in brix readings and plant sap PH, I do not think they are vital in the overall scheme of an organic/living soil grow. I am getting fabulous results and the only thing I would really want as a tool would be a microscope.

Click to expand...

someone was asking about how to improve yield and density.. the higher the brix the higher the bud density, one good reason of many to want to know what the sap is saying.. a refractometer can only help never hinder..

Chem nutes= suck balls
Organic growing= blow job from Jesus himself.

This is just an interpretation, and should not be considered a fact. As getting a blow job from Jesus would prove to be to difficult. Unless you go to Mexico, and then I am sure you can get a blow job from Jesus.

my 2cents

my 2cents

And what can i use to get rock hard nugz, organically? the same strain(altho the blue dream isnt done yet), and while im still not unhappy, per se, when i see that strains potential, i almost want to go buy coco and chems(*NOT*)

Click to expand...

the word "organic" is pretty much marketing nowa days & ive seen many examples of bottled to DIY tutorials on bloom boosters,enzymes,hormones,super oxygenated rootzone, bennies, carbs and instantly available "organic" nutrients pushed and advertised all over the canna sites,mags etc.
considering its not rocket science to control a plants diet organically,specially with the present gadgets & the canna preferred soilless or hydro systems,the "better" debate really comes down to experience..

But how can i explain why the chemicals are bad? like hard science? like, what are the harmful effects, of the production of them, or the use of them?

Click to expand...

the following slide should help
http://www.slideshare.net/drbonci/clearsprings-summit-june-2010

Over the last 70 years, humans have been exposed to exogenous toxicants at an explosive rate. The main source of these toxicological agents is man-made synthetic chemicals. Technology for manufacturing synthetic chemicals was developed in the mid-twentieth century to meet the chemical warfare and material demands of World War II. Since then, there have been untold billions of tons of synthetic chemicals manufactured and put into our environment to the extent that our everyday environment is saturated with them. This has overloaded our natural detoxification organs and systems, allowing toxic chemicals to stockpile in our body tissues. Scientific studies from around the world show that these same chemicals reduce health, cause disease, even alter genetic function. It is crucial that we understand the nature of these toxicants and how they interact with human tissue in order to adequately deal with the widespread health problems they have created.

Click to expand...

imo most "organic" growers agree that ther has to be ethics and certain principles underlining the choices we make "as we choose our joys and sorrows long before we experience them." but im not partisan nor naive to think "organics" is the magic ticket to best taste,low cost,fat yielding,sustainable,healthy end product...

ive seen and tasted some shity "organic" grown herb & many great members have debated on certain practices or common trends shared..
we can not kid our selves
choices between environmental sustainability and sourcing material is a coin toss for both sides..

fact is, it's so much less trouble to work with nature than to fight it.
-- "We abuse the land because we regard it as a commodity belonging to us. When we see land as a community to which we belong, we may begin to use it with love and respect." --
Aldo Leopold, author of the environmental classic "Sand County Almanac"
and when you apply that lesson in your life, lo and behold, nature suddenly becomes your friend and ally, doing most of the work for you.

by taking a holistic approach to the use of finite resources and by minimizing impact on the environment,organic growing makes a positive contribution towards creating a sustainable feature for all life on earth.
this means recycling and reusing instead of dumping,burning or buying new;letting life flourish and avoiding the use of non reusable resources..it involves effort to choosing locally available material rather then those transported over long distances..

i liked what highlife had to say about some canna guano growers needing to wake up,
the industry polluted sewegde compost,guano,perlite processing & how or were some "organic" nutrients are sourced are just as bad & or intertwined with the big petro companies


deforestation, herbicides, mono-cropping, slave labor,GMO's,pesticide drowned product etc. is a far different reality than from the images their promoting in the hydro stores

some may consider reading up on the environmental impact of many popular ingredients in ther "organic" nutrients before trying to take the high ground
blood meal,cotton seed meal,bone meal,feather meal is a good start

one of the reasons many start incorporating topsoil,recycling soil,composting,worm farming,growing ther own nutrients etc was partly economics and also partly common sense.
the idea behind organic soil growers is to acquire types of material for building soil...whatever it may be.

yet here we still see,books,canna clebs,mags advising people to dump every inch of soil after a cycle...following some of these popular "super" redic amended recipes,then the deep pocket prices these kids pay for fancy ORGANIC fertility & how they use them..


soil fertility is not simply a question of the quantity of plant food that it contains-it is the sum of all features that are necessary for plant growth.
maintainng and continually building humus rich soil is the goal as "trying to amend one's way to a successful garden is basically an attempt to apply the concepts of hydroponics to soil"_coot

some may consider reading up on the environmental impact of many popular ingredients in ther "organic" nutrients before trying to take the high ground
blood meal,cotton seed meal,bone meal,feather meal is a good start

Click to expand...

You can add bat & bird guanos to that list......