[vukman]

Hello everyone:

Let me start by saying this is going to be a lengthy post so be forewarned.........

Okay.....for the past month or two, I've been a strong voice in the pro LED corner. Why? I feel as though there has been enough development and research done that the LED or SSL (solid state lighting) field is about to take off with our beloved field of interest and medicine.

I can fully understand and appreciate the people out there who are against it. I was as well but the more reading I've done and more educated I became, I changed my views. Now, the biggest obstacle is opinion which has been tainted from old and outdated technology.

Long gone are the days of Hi-Power LED's being the little 1mm and 5mm diodes which were pushing fractions of a watt. These days, we are talking about 10W and up for the white and up to 10W for the coloured LED's. They might even be higher than 10W for colours but for argument sake, even 10W is an exponential jump. I am going to take some liberties here and go under the assumption that if you are reading this, you already have some or a lot of knowledge about LED's so I do not have to get into basics. There is a ton of reading material out there which is available about wave lengths and spectrum..etc..

Where I made my mistake and I've made quite a few but in direct relation to the LED's I am using is this. A friend of mine had a light sitting around not being used. I asked him to borrow it. When I got it home and plugged it in, that was it for me. I said why should I use his when I can buy my own and off I went like a chicken with its head cut off.

Looked through the retail sites, gasped at the prices. Went to Alibaba, was pleasantly surprised as to how much less the cost was, made a choice and purchased 2 lights. Notice nowhere did I say I researched or read anything before buying!!!!! Mistake #1.

Now, I have always said that the lights are "Blackstar's" and I have always placed that brand name in quotation marks...that is because it is not the Blackstar brand but rather the 500W Blackstar model but not the brand and I come to find out later, not the Blackstar spectrum either!! Mistake #2. I did not know that at that time yet. As they say, ignorance is bliss....

Moving on, as I became better read and educated about LED's and light wave spectrum and everything else that goes along with it, I soon became aware of quite a few things within the LED retail market and the marketing strategy as well. First thing being that if the unit is marked 500W, it is not drawing 500W..........

They calculate wattage on the number of chips times their rated wattage. Technically, that is the wattage of the unit but.......no one powers the chips at full 100% capacity. They are usually run between 2.3W for some colours and 3.4W for other colours. If you multiply those numbers with the numbers of chips, then you will get a more accurate wattage/power draw of the unit. Also, there are fans involved as well which draw power so the amount of light reaching your plants is always less... That is one the the issues I have with marketing...that little omission that there is a difference between the marked and real wattage.

Next thing that came along is the optics. LED's have lenses on them to concentrate the light. Once again, in my ignorance, I did not know this.

This is the main reason I am writing this post. So people can learn from my mistakes and not blame the technology.

The lenses on the chips come in a variety of angles....usually in multiples of 30. I say usually because there are all sorts out there and all shapes as well. That was another lesson I learned.

Finally, the most important thing I learned was about light. Wave lengths in particular. The difference between 440nm and 470nm. Not so much that there is a 30nm difference between the two but rather the interplay of those wave lengths and how the plant uses that light. The uptake for Chlorophyll A and B for example. Photosynthesis and its direct relationship with light is something that everyone should learn. Ladies and gentlemen, when you see that LED's can be fine tuned to hit those specific uptake spectrum, then you will know where the true beauty of LED's lay and how technology has unlocked the way for SSL to overtake HID lighting.

Enough of that though. My mistakes...........The lights I have contain the following spectrum and optics:

380 (120 degrees Beam Angle) 1pcs
730 (120 degrees Beam Angle) 1pcs
12000K (90 degree Beam Angle) 2pcs
660 (120 ° light angle) 4pcs
430 (120-degree Beam Angle) 20pcs
630 (60 degree Beam Angle) 32pcs
630 (90-degree Beam Angle) 28pcs
630 (120 degrees Beam Angle) 72pcs


There is so much wrong with that, I honestly do not know where to start. All I can say and I cannot stress this enough is please PLEASE research the lights you are buying. Ideally, the optics should be between 60 and 90 degrees so as to concentrate the light deeper into the plants.

The 4 main wave lengths but by no means the only ones are
440nm:470nm630nm:670nm........ .yes, 670 and even much more so if you study the Emerson effect, it's 680nm. Those are just rough.

I implore that you read for yourself and see what the 400's trigger and what the 600's trigger. How UV light plays into things and also how IR does as well.

I wanted to come clean because even though I am quite happy with the outcome of my LED grow, I also know it could have been substantially better. I want people to know I made mistakes and I am trying to help others not make the same ones.

I know I have probably left out tons of stuff and if you need to know something I've left out, please ask. This forum is full of persons who are more than willing to help especially in this still emerging field.

Thank you for bearing with me and if you are still here....reading my babble and ramble... I sincerely hope this has helped someone learn something about LED lighting...

vukman

[rives]

The only thing that I would quibble with is your impression of what the "ideal" lens would be. I think that this one is largely dependent on two factors - growing style and available headroom. In my experience, high wattage leds with 90 degree lenses need to be kept at least 15" above the tops of the plants or bleaching will occur.

I usually grow in a scrog format, and that was the intended application of my hybrid fixture. Osram 660nm LHW5AM leds were used with the factory 170 degree lensing in order to try and match the penetration characteristics of the PL-L lamps that they are paired with. I would like to try 110-120 degree lenses, but haven't been able to source them at this point. However, even with the existing wide angle, penetration has been much better than I would have expected. The following picture is of a Sweet Tooth that was not scrogged for various reasons, and still responded pretty well to the fixture.

[vukman]

point well taken.......even with my 'sorry-ass' optics, you can see with the images in my postings that they're not bad although you make a very valid point about bleaching which I did not consider..especially since I am talking about stronger and stronger wattages....

See, the lesson and learning continues which is why I love this place..:-)

[medmaker420]

The distance from the panel to the canopy will always be dependent for sure and light bleaching can occur however the temp issues which usually come with an hps and its light bleaching is still apples to oranges as far as stress on the plants overall.

For those of you who have finished grows with leds and have had any bleaching what distance were you at for it to happen and how long did it take to notice?

One of the main things in my research is light angles and the lens degrees because I find that to determine the style to grow with based on the penetration capabilities of the lenses used without causing harm OR bleaching the tops.

I still want to see some bleached tops when growing under LEDs though, does anyone have led bleached pics anywhere? I would love to see how they look compared to a mh or hps bleaching.

Vukman - on the spectrum, you know what needs to be tweaked so you had a great learning experience which is always great AND your plants are growing just fine. I would just use that light for when you expand your empire and use them as supplemental lighting because it does have some great light in there even if it isn't the % and variation that you currently want.

I would rig that one with another new one up on a light movie and have it go back and forth a few inches in that tent of yours. See how they do with the moving leds going in and out of the canopy.

I think that is the one thing overlooked with leds and I feel a light mover is going to take leds to the next level. Leds do not have the spread that hps has and being able to add a $100 light mover to allow your led panel to get a larger spread only seems to help with the gpw competitions because the lights would be hitting the plants from all the different leds and moving across the canopy the entire time.

Instead of worrying about wide angled lenses just add a light movie and keep the more narrow angles to get into the canopy and the bleaching won't be as big an issue as there wouldn't be a constant beam at any one point in the canopy.

[grow_right]

great post!! i researched led's grow lamps for a few years and purchased a few of the "first" led grow lamps. sadly, if i had all those dollars today, i would purchase a new high watter!!

finally i purchased from advancedledlights. (i know i sound like a commercial) the spectrums fit right, and their experience and test grows proved to me they were the right choice for me. other than costs, everyone should purchase led grow lamps.

currently i am testing their new xml lamp, and i have plants touhing the lens. i too am wanting to see the bleaching. heat is no issue.

next test grow, 2X200 watt diamond series for a 2x2 area.

[medmaker420]

Originally Posted by grow_right

great post!! i researched led's grow lamps for a few years and purchased a few of the "first" led grow lamps. sadly, if i had all those dollars today, i would purchase a new high watter!!

finally i purchased from advancedledlights. (i know i sound like a commercial) the spectrums fit right, and their experience and test grows proved to me they were the right choice for me. other than costs, everyone should purchase led grow lamps.

currently i am testing their new xml lamp, and i have plants touhing the lens. i too am wanting to see the bleaching. heat is no issue.

next test grow, 2X200 watt diamond series for a 2x2 area.

can't wait to see the 2x200 in that 2x2 and think it will be killer. The advanced leds spectrum is a solid one no doubt.

[Phychotron]

Originally Posted by medmaker420

For those of you who have finished grows with leds and have had any bleaching what distance were you at for it to happen and how long did it take to notice?

You'll see it creeping up. Right now I have some plants that have been showing signs of bleaching for the past two weeks or so. Now much, as I moved them to the side a bit so they weren't directly under the light. Its just the very tip at the moment, but i'll be watching it as it goes. I'll try and get some photo's in the next few hours. Anything a foot or less under that light and the plants will bleach.

this is with the 400DS from advanced led. the blackstars don't bleach at all from what I can tell, even when the plants were touching the fixture, or near touching. My brother also had some under the 740 extreme flower from advanced.

[PetFlora]

Medmaker I wanted to say I found your post (#4- light mover) helpful. I tried to use the Yes/No feature, but it says I need to have ~ 40 posts first. Well, I have completed 2 journals on IC + current thread, regular poster for years, so something is fd up there

Mover ?

How long can the plants be without the light directly over them, without fucking with them? Don't want no skitzo plants! Or do I?

Let's say a 10" x 10" fixture spanning ~ 3 ft (2-3 plants). The light would move ~ 1ft each way from center, but 2 ft from each side. The 2 far side plants would get little to no useable light for X period of time repeated throughout the light period

[Phychotron]

here you can see two tips starting to bleach, the ruler is on the lower side branch that was directly under the 400ds, 16" away. It became more intense since yesterday. They start out looking like its a speck of perlite at the very tip. The other is on the right, you can just barely tell its white.


the main cola, has been showing signs of bleaching for a few weeks, but hasn't progressed since I've moved it to the side of the DS.


here is the lower cola with more bleaching showing up @ 16" away.

This is a really old blackberry clone that I acquired.

They recommend 18-30" but when i set up my new tent the other day I was too tired to find the shorter chains that I made, as the fixture comes with long hanging cables. I had to hook it directly to the tent rather than the ratchets. Its up higher now, but now i fear the main cola may end up getting too much more light because of it.

The thing I'm working on is trying to get a nice even canopy so that plants are all about the same height. Right now the shorter plants are supported on buckets to get them closer to the light and a more even canopy.

[rives]

Lumigrow ES-330 at about 12", if I remember correctly.



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