breeding for terpenes

MiMedicineMan · Sep 16, 2012

So I have been getting more and more into terpenes.

First of all, does cannabis bred to have less smell mean it is cannabis bred to have less terpenes compared to cannabanoids?

second and maybe more importantly, Is it better to have a lower cannabanoid expression (pheno) with a higher ratio of terpenes or a higher cannabanoid expression with a lower ratio of terpenes? Or Maybe it doesn't matter? Or maybe it could go either way.

I have found many threads pertaining to these questions, but none specifically. Maybe point me to some if you know of any.

MiMedicineMan · Sep 16, 2012

I have been getting stuff tested since they offered it in my area. I thought I would find some holy grail like plant with high cbd or cbg or who knows which i would have otherwise just culled after 1 grow. In my last run of tests I had 20 done. Several strains with multiple different plants of each. I can only say I confirmed my growing suspicions...

I can tell the same thing with my eyes as the tests tell me. This one is better (more psychoactive) because it's more "frosty". This plant is better because the crystals go farther out on the fan leaves than this other plant which has no crystals on the fan leaves (probably a thread in itself: leaf saturation of crystals compared to actual cannabanoid percentages in buds) Not to get too off track, the reason I'm starting this thread is because I've come to a point where I need input to further my study.

I recently paid (overpaid actually) for a high cbd/low thc cutting thinking that I could make high cbd concentrate and mix it with high thc concentrate and then i could mix them and get anything in between. Well now I have learned and realize it is not this simple.

When I had these tests done the facility didn't offer mass spectrometer and now they do. So im gonna get another 20 or so done maybe. Maybe more concentrates next time... I'm anxious to know if the terpenes will turn out the same as the cannabanoids in that i don't need the testing to know the results (it is apparent to our senses)

here are 3 different plants from a 5 pack of seeds. it was labeled chem x sour larry og x alien technology which is the lineage of ultimate 08 chemdawg from elite geneics. Im not sure if this is a self cross, a f2, or what but its good. The best one in my opinion is #3 because it has the best smell even though #1 is much higher thc

TGT · Sep 16, 2012

I too would like to know more about terpenes and there effect on cannabis quality. Hope you get some input, good question!

added: I think you should test the company testing your plants by sending in one specimen and getting results and then the next week send in the same material with a different name and see how close the results are to one another. I am always skeptical of tests done on cannabis.

TGT

MiMedicineMan · Sep 16, 2012

good point TGT I have had testing done at different places but not the same sample over and over again.

I have heard from people who take the same sample and send it to 2 or 3 local facilities. I have never had anybody tell me they were more than a couple tenths of a percent off of each other.

Is it possible that the content of a sample could change noticibly over time? I've read cbn is a byproduct and is from improper drying/curing methods

TGT · Sep 16, 2012

I would think a sample could change over time. I have never had any material tested before, but I think if the sample was of the same bud and sent in a few days later (or better the same time) the numbers should be fairly close - at least enough to see if they are accurate or not. I'm just guessing, but if I were to spend a lot of money on one lab I would want to make sure the results are accurate - not saying yours are not.

Thanks for posting the reports. It is interesting you said the first specimen was not as good as the third even though the THC was much higher and that the difference was the scent was more powerful. It shows terpenes have much to do with finished quality, but I am sure we already knew that. Neat to see it though - thanks!

TGT

MiMedicineMan · Sep 16, 2012

When I say the best i could mean many things. Truth be told I think the "best" plants are the ones that we keep around for longer. There is a reason a clone only is still a clone. only.

That means something different today than it meant 20 years ago and something way different than it meant thousands of years ago. Maybe the best plants are the ones who adapt to climate change, or maybe they all adapt at different rates based on who knows what and never will.

Maybe we all have the same strain with just different phenos and different phenos of phenos? Didn't all cannabis come from hindu kush mountains or something like that?

The one that makes me want to keep propagating it is not the one that is strongest, it is the one that people like me want the most. This is the one that has the best all around appeal. If its super strong but tastes like broccoli it's not going to have what we call "bag appeal" (but maybe it will last through an ice age, who knows...)

I still have 4 different plants from this seed pack but I think I'm gonna trash them all but #3. It has this great perfumey og smell that i remember from way back when. I assume this is the sour larry og coming through.

ps TGT maybe next time i'll send in the same sample as 2 different names, mwahaha

MiMedicineMan · Sep 16, 2012

DJ short told me that in his breeding he will throw out anything that is too strong ie overpowering, because he is looking for a high quality totally balanced specimen all around

TGT · Sep 19, 2012

MiMedicineMan said:
DJ short told me that in his breeding he will throw out anything that is too strong ie overpowering, because he is looking for a high quality totally balanced specimen all around

I think this is easy to see in DJ's strains as I have never found anything super 'knock you on your ass' potent but have found his strains to have a more mild and enjoyable buzz. Me on the other hand do like the killer heavy buzz strains and think there is a place for both, but to each their own as they say.

Let us know how testing goes and if you could post the results of samples with the MS, it would be appreciated.

PS: Those plants you grew from seed sure have a high THC rating on some of them. I have never seen anything personally over 26 percent THC, but then again THC is not everything as we have learned.

TGT

MiMedicineMan · Sep 19, 2012

I too have never seen any flowers reaching over 26 thc. Maybe that's some sort of inherent limit? And what is this MS you speak of?

the levels don't seem too high. This was actually a pretty mediocre grow for me. I had Thrips a bit so they didn't do it quite like I wanted. I had a lot that was 18%ish but nothing over 20. Caramelo deserves honorable mention here. I'm sure I'll hit 20 this time with some stuff.

often I've found my "weaker" (12-15% thc) strains are the most medicinal feeling. They often have more smell and they're what ppl want. That's y I was wondering if you can breed these high terpine traits to a high thc plant or vise versa or does higher thc make less terps overall?

MiMedicineMan · Sep 23, 2012

Ok here is the Chem 1. She is the most potent of them and the least leafy (highest calyx to leaf ratio) Also it has the least smell by far while growing, storing, and smoking.

I'm pretty sure that i won't end up keeping this one. It is strong, yes, but not nearly as smokable as the others

MiMedicineMan · Sep 23, 2012

here is Chem 2. She is the biggest yielding, but much more leafy than #1. It also is weaker, probably due to more leaf than calyx. But it has a better smell also, much more smokable, and very high on bag appeal due to the huge nugz. Up close the buds have a silver hue from being so frosty; it's hard to see it under the hps... The first 3 are one plant and the fourth is a different one. She also has the fastest flowering time about 56 days

MiMedicineMan · Sep 23, 2012

OK here is the keeper, I think, #3. She's sort of halfway between 1 and 2. She has the silver sheen of #2 where #3 has more of a white color, not as sparkly (albeit stronger). Now this one has a great OG type perfumey smell that makes it smokable all day long IMO. Its not as leafy as #2 but not as big of a yielder either. It does yield good enough to make it a keeper though.

MiMedicineMan · Sep 23, 2012

All of them are good yielders; the plants last time, which I got tested were all between 5-6 ozs. The ones this time are smaller, 3-4 ozs each but they are much more healthy. If i decide to get these tested, and I probably will, I'm sure the #1 will be over 20%

So the whole reason for this post is pertaining to terpenes and breeding. Is this something that can be stabilized and sought after or is it simply a by product of something else? Or maybe its a result of environment??

I noticed that some amsterdam breeders tell you what terps their strains produce. So is this set or chemicals inherent to the cannabis or you can manipulate the concentration of each seperate chemical by breeding?

medmaker420 · Sep 23, 2012

Great plants and dj has a sound breeding program thats for sure. I never thought about him not using overpowering strains but it totally makes sense once you think about it and have smoked his gear.

Loving the pics up there brother!
You seem to have plenty of keeper phenos in there.

MiMedicineMan · Sep 23, 2012

Thanks dude, I have more pics from the same grow here.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=246190

Stinky Pink, Cannatonic, Strawberry Cough (kk), indiana bubblegum, lavendar, caramelo, etc

MiMedicineMan · Sep 24, 2012

LumpStatus said:
The testing is accurate only for that specific nug. Having one bud test at 20% thc out of a whole pound is not an accurate way to determine the entire pound. Each bud in that pound will have a different Thc percentage...

There are many strains that test over 25% thc....like the green ribbon cut I have. Seen it get as high as 27%. However it is NOT a super potent strain (go figure!) You will get higher off of 15% og than 27% green ribbon any day.

Thats from the GSC thread. I found it interesting

MiMedicineMan · Sep 26, 2012

Would really like to hear from some ogs on this...

Sam_Skunkman · Oct 4, 2012

I don't get how you can breed for terpene's if you do not even test for them like you do the Cannabinoids. Good luck....
Imagine breeding for THC or another of the Cannabinoids, and not testing the Cannabinoid content.
Do you want to increase a single terpene or all of them? Set a goal. And then do it.
It is not so hard, if you have analytical backup.
-SamS

mexcurandero420 · Oct 4, 2012

First you can do an organoleptic test of the aroma and later on you do it analytical.The organoleptic test will be the most difficult one for most of the growers, unless they're trained in aromatherapy.

Keep on growing

Sam_Skunkman · Oct 4, 2012

Organoleptic tests will reveal little about the %'s or terpene contents of the over 130 terpenes, and total yields are so affected by the environment and harvest dates that it is hard to eliminate variables.
You need analytical testing to be honest. Breeding requires it.
-SamS

mexcurandero420 said:
First you can do an organoleptic test of the aroma and later on you do it analytical.The organoleptic test will be the most difficult one for most of the growers, unless they're trained in aromatherapy.

Keep on growing

breeding for terpenes

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