will this micro space work??

repuk · Sep 7, 2012

Hi!

I wanted your opinion, you experienced micro growers!

I want to grow, but it has to be super stealth inside my own home (kids).

The only suitable place is a sort of pantry in the kitchen that was built using the under nearby stairs space. Despite the small volume inside (about 40 cubic feet), it has a regular door.

It isn't being used as pantry but for my junk: tool boxes, etc.

I thought on rigging a small cabinet inside (like 60 cubic cm), that would stand a quick inspection with no suspicion if anyone opens that door, me included to get a tool or something if someone is watching, could use the toolboxes as camo.

Taking into acount the pantry door will stay closed and there isn't any way of circulating air outside the pantry, my main concern is ventilation.

Given the smell has to be controlled, I thought on a carbon filter inside the cabinet (an odorsock or an DIY carbon filter) that sucks air outside the grow space, and depending on humidity, a temp controlled PC fan for intraction.

My concern is the air from the grow space will be being interchanged with the one inside the closed pantry, will that be enough? Any one tried something similar? had problems?

There's about 5mm clearance between the door pantry and the floor as the only path for air to circulate outside it.

I think that's that dictates the wattage I use 150-200W of T5/PLLs, or a 150HPS, will a 250W HPS be too much for that space?

Regarding yield, as long as is close to wattage (i.e. 150W = ~150grams) it would be fine. I have grown in coco with success, so my only concern is if it's doable regarding ventilation and specially smell control given the other restrictions.

They · Sep 7, 2012

Put a louvered vent in the door or get a louvered door. Get a good lock while you're at it. Plants like what we like, would you like to be shut in a closet with only a little gap under the door or a nice vent for lots of air movement? Best to exhaust out the top to another space. Can you make minor modifications to the door and walls?

repuk · Sep 7, 2012

They said:
Put a louvered vent in the door or get a louvered door. Get a good lock while you're at it. Plants like what we like, would you like to be shut in a closet with only a little gap under the door or a nice vent for lots of air movement? Best to exhaust out the top to another space. Can you make minor modifications to the door and walls?

Thanks for your reply! Problem is this is a rent and i cannot do that without prior consent, and why would one want a louvered door for such a small space??

mrpewpew · Sep 7, 2012

think you are gonna need some kind of way to move air out of there if you are gonna keep the temperature within a proper range.

Secrecy · Sep 7, 2012

Dont know your budget but you can get away with sealed box w/ co2, no noisy fans apart from your carbon scrubber and fan every 15 min of the hour.

20lbs co2 bottle with co2 plant regulator is around $200, that small of a space I recon you would fill the tank up almost every two months, around here it costs $20 to fill.

They · Sep 7, 2012

repuk said:
Thanks for your reply! Problem is this is a rent and i cannot do that without prior consent, and why would one want a louvered door for such a small space??

A door with a vent(s) or a louvered door will let air move in and out of the space. If you cannot remove the heat from the grow you cannot grow. You could buy your own door to modify and switch them when you move.

Hempe · Sep 7, 2012

i'd invest in building a pc case with a few exhaust fans to reduce heat. or maybe a couple pcs. just my input. Throw a towel over them put behind something and your good to go.

repuk · Sep 7, 2012

They said:
A door with a vent(s) or a louvered door will let air move in and out of the space. If you cannot remove the heat from the grow you cannot grow. You could buy your own door to modify and switch them when you move.

I think I may have not explained myself right. The volume for the grow will be 1/4 to 1/5 the total volume in the paltry (though the things in the paltry will eat volume also so final "empty volume" will be like 1/3).

Buying another door is way costly... that's ruled out. The present door is very, very good quality already and that makes that option impossible to explain!

I inspected the door frame closely and I may have luck, the top isn't well sealed, there's like 5mm clearance from the frame to the wall... will that be enough? who knows...

I have grown in the past and had a space 1/2 the volume for veg w/100W PLLs (though in a big basement) and temps at least in veg wasn't an issue. I don't mind adjusting the watts in order to not overheat.

Secrecy said:
Dont know your budget but you can get away with sealed box w/ co2, no noisy fans apart from your carbon scrubber and fan every 15 min of the hour.

20lbs co2 bottle with co2 plant regulator is around $200, that small of a space I recon you would fill the tank up almost every two months, around here it costs $20 to fill.

Hey that sounds interesting! and by chance I already have a big tank of CO2 (the same as used for draught beer, 29lbs) I used for other projects... and a recharge here is like $8. I have a regulator (manual) will look how much is a standalone automatic plant regulator, or if it could be DIY'ed...

So the reasoning is in the dark cycle the supplied CO2 will be transformed to Oxygen, then in the light cycle that same oxygen will be used by the plants? that sounds an ellegant solution, maybe with the available aireation will be enough... great!

mrpewpew said:
think you are gonna need some kind of way to move air out of there if you are gonna keep the temperature within a proper range.

I think (will have to try) maybe that could be achieved playing with watts not going very high... I can do some testing prior to put the plants...

Hempe, will consider that...

thanks everyone for the input!

They · Sep 7, 2012

repuk said:
So the reasoning is in the dark cycle the supplied CO2 will be transformed to Oxygen, then in the light cycle that same oxygen will be used by the plants? that sounds an ellegant solution, maybe with the available aireation will be enough... great!

Maybe you should read up on how photosynthesis works again. It sounded great when I first read it, but I'm high.

repuk · Sep 7, 2012

They said:
Maybe you should read up on how photosynthesis works again. It sounded great when I first read it, but I'm high.

Ouch! In envy you!!

I'm sure CO2 consumption hapoens with lights on, i.e. When heat is more critical, so adding a gas that will expand inside the cab and the pantry will positively presurize it, making air to exit through the available clearances... Plus the gas in expansion generates cold...

My doubt now is regarding the lights...
4 55w PLL? 6 or 8 36w PLL? 150w HPS? 250w HPS? Height is 125cm, width and depth like 75cm. Oddly This list is ordered from the most expensive to the least...

repuk · Sep 7, 2012

By oddly I mean maybe is also ordered from less to more heat produced by the bulbs?

Secrecy · Sep 7, 2012

repuk said:
Ouch! In envy you!!

I'm sure CO2 consumption hapoens with lights on, i.e. When heat is more critical, so adding a gas that will expand inside the cab and the pantry will positively presurize it, making air to exit through the available clearances... Plus the gas in expansion generates cold...

My doubt now is regarding the lights...
4 55w PLL? 6 or 8 36w PLL? 150w HPS? 250w HPS? Height is 125cm, width and depth like 75cm. Oddly This list is ordered from the most expensive to the least...

yea you wouldn't need to run co2 lights off, no use. If you decide to run co2, you would want a sealed box, no air exchange. Advantages are total control over grow enviroment. Bugs are non existent, Plants grow like on steroids and the grow can be nearly silent. Normal air contains around ~350ppm of co2 where as the plants can take and want to take up to 1250 - 1500ppm of co2. You would gradually work your way up as the plant matures to 1500ppm, anything more than that is waste.

Another cool technique is that lets say your girl(s) have bugs, you can bump up the ppms to 2400ppm+ for two hours then back it down, since its sealed off so no oxygen the bugs die.

sounds like your most expensive cost would be a light and co2 regulator.

Light is totally up to you, I want to run led so that i don't have to cut holes for venting "Hps cool tubes" Fan cooled cooltubes make noise in non insulated non muffled applications. I want stealth as I think you do as well.

You could run watercooled lights that are almost silent but its expensive as a mofo.

I've been reading up on Ed Rosenthal's books on growing to brush up my skills, got the idea to build a stealth armoire sealed co2 with 126x-pro led light. Sounds like you could emulate the same thing.

also this dude talks about co2 solenoids and basics
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sV2VBKIllyg

repuk · Sep 9, 2012

Secrecy said:
yea you wouldn't need to run co2 lights off, no use. If you decide to run co2, you would want a sealed box, no air exchange. Advantages are total control over grow enviroment. Bugs are non existent, Plants grow like on steroids and the grow can be nearly silent. Normal air contains around ~350ppm of co2 where as the plants can take and want to take up to 1250 - 1500ppm of co2. You would gradually work your way up as the plant matures to 1500ppm, anything more than that is waste.

When you say no air exchange you mean no fans at all??

Another cool technique is that lets say your girl(s) have bugs, you can bump up the ppms to 2400ppm+ for two hours then back it down, since its sealed off so no oxygen the bugs die.

I recall having seen that to fight spider mites, yep!

sounds like your most expensive cost would be a light and co2 regulator.

I have seen regulators in ebay from china kinda cheap, dunno if they're worth or not, anyone?

Light is totally up to you, I want to run led so that i don't have to cut holes for venting "Hps cool tubes" Fan cooled cooltubes make noise in non insulated non muffled applications. I want stealth as I think you do as well.

You could run watercooled lights that are almost silent but its expensive as a mofo.

I don't have experience with HPS less than 600watts, a cooltube is out of the equation as it not only will need a fan, but for the cab being inside the pantry.

My doubts: does a 250w HPS need aircooling inside a 28"x28"x48" cab? what about a 150w HPS? Do 220W CFL work as those in terms of flowering? Is CO2 worth with 220-250W CFLs?

From my experience, up to 250W in CFLs will pose no problem regarding heat inside such a cab. But can one expect yields like HPS (I easily got yields in the 1Watt =1 gram range)? If not, what's a more realistic figure? Will the strain selected be a critical part of the equation?

I've been reading up on Ed Rosenthal's books on growing to brush up my skills, got the idea to build a stealth armoire sealed co2 with 126x-pro led light. Sounds like you could emulate the same thing.

also this dude talks about co2 solenoids and basics
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sV2VBKIllyg

thanks a ton Secrecy for all the tips!! you got myself thinking and pretty excited about this project! though LEDs seem to be pretty expensive, have to research the DIY path on those as I think I'm skilled enough in electronics DIY to try it..

Secrecy · Sep 9, 2012

There should be a fan blowing from the bottom of the plant circulating the co2. A small osilating desk fan would work just fine. You still want a carbon filter + fan and it would run every last quarter of the hour. It draws away spent up co2 + oxygen and heat.

I'd be hesitant to run any hps over 150 due to the fact it's a sealed box with no air exchange. I think the only way to pull a high pressure sodium would be to build a box with door that is slightly smaller than the pantry then insulate around the box to keep temps in the norm.

Yea dude diy ing your own led is prob the best idea, those 3w diodes and powersupply are pretty inexpensive. The hardest part is patience in soldering.

Secrecy · Sep 9, 2012

Also I'd like to add when the plant(s) are going into flower they need less and less ppm of co2, the high ppm of co2 is very useful when the plants are in vegetative state, when in flowering there is less of a demand for co2 than veg.

This would reduce the frequency needed to recharge the bottle and prevent waste.

repuk · Sep 9, 2012

Secrecy said:
There should be a fan blowing from the bottom of the plant circulating the co2. A small osilating desk fan would work just fine. You still want a carbon filter + fan and it would run every last quarter of the hour. It draws away spent up co2 + oxygen and heat.

Ok!!!

I'd be hesitant to run any hps over 150 due to the fact it's a sealed box with no air exchange. I think the only way to pull a high pressure sodium would be to build a box with door that is slightly smaller than the pantry then insulate around the box to keep temps in the norm.

yep, I came to the same conclusion researching/googling... A 250hps will need good ventilation. My problem is I'm a perfectionist and keep Thinking in optimizing investment to yield whereas what I should focus on stealth and KISS regarding airflow/humidity/temps which is my primary restriction.

Yea dude diy ing your own led is prob the best idea, those 3w diodes and powersupply are pretty inexpensive. The hardest part is patience in soldering.

Really?? Thats one of my better skills!! You seem to have researched a lot on the issue, could you point me (or tell me) any info of which kind of LEDs are needed etc? I'm thinking on a mixed PLL/LED setup...

From what I googled it seems with proper tender (gonna use coco as I had impressive results with it) and LST/SCROG to optimjze light penetration CFL can yield about 60% percent grams per watt, only downside is cost, so would like to research on a mixed led/cfll if it helps to raise the yield ratio or bring costs down!

Thanks!!

Secrecy · Sep 9, 2012

If you google 3w led diode red/blue you get many vendors.

I'd get the high powered 3w diodes SDP 03's
http://www.snowdragonledhk.com/new-led-high-power-3w.htm

Each diode puts out 100lm to 120lm

Get a mix of red and blue they also sell powersupplys up to 60w

Secrecy · Sep 9, 2012

1000bulbs.com also sell led power supplies

oldone · Sep 10, 2012

What about this one?

What about this one?

TexMex McDirt · Sep 10, 2012

I used to have a small micro grow that was in a acloset, sort of the same situation. Mine did fine. It's not like that closet was full on air tight. My biggest problem was heat, but with CFLs it was managable. If I was doing it again I'd go PLLs.

Good luck man. If you read long enough here you can find the right info to solve just about anything.

Mahalo,
Tex

will this micro space work??

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