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should you supplement with carb and amino acid products

jammie

ganjatologist
Veteran
Expert Eye: Carbohydrates and Amino Acid Products
BY URBAN GARDEN MAGAZINE ⋅ JULY 12, 2010 ⋅ EMAIL THIS POST ⋅ PRINT THIS POST ⋅ POST A COMMENT
FILED UNDER AMINO, AMINO ACID, AMINO ACIDS, AMINOS, CARBOHYDRATES, CARBS, CASPARIAN, CASPARIAN STRIP, ISSUE 11, MOLASSES, PHLOEM, PLANT NUTRITION, ROOTS, STEVE BERLOW, STEVEN BERLOW, SUGAR, XYLEM
What’s the big deal with carbohydrate and amino acid products these days? Are they being used or misused by growers? We asked Steve Berlow, a research consultant for Florigen Laboratories in BC, Canada to give us his insider perspective on the rise of carbohydrate and amino acid based products in the marketplace in recent years…

The hydroponics and indoor gardening industry is rapidly changing and evolving. Recently the pace of that change has become quite staggering with new products seeming to appear almost daily – nowhere is this more prominent than in the field of plant nutrition. In the last few years the hydroponic nutrient market has progressed from offering base nutrients and some phosphorus flowering boosters through to today’s market where a staggering (some might say ‘bewildering’) array of new technologies and theories are promoted.
Two product types that have been causing a lot of chatter in the growing community are carbohydrate (sugar) supplements and amino acid based additives. And for good reason. Sugars and amino acids are both interesting concepts in the context of plant nutrition and many experts consider them to be on the cutting edge. All sounds pretty exciting doesn’t it? But before you rush off and buy that next fancy-labelled bottle of sugary or amino acid goodness, you really should get your head around some basic facts concerning these substances and the ability of plants to make use of them.

Carbohydrates – Are They Really ‘Candy’ For Your Plants?
You’ve probably heard the hype about carbs: “Feed your plants supplemental carbs and turn them into Olympic Gold Medal winners!”
So a grower walks into their local store, decides to buy a big bottle of some sugary carb supplement, with the intention of deploying it on his next res change. The notion is that the plants will suck up the carbs and get a boost of ‘pure energy’ without having to go through the hassle of producing them as a product of photosynthesis.
Errrr, sorry to spoil the big carb party, but it’s not actually that straight forward. The carbohydrate supplement is definitely a case where theory got ahead of practice. In theory providing your plants with an array of simple and complex carbohydrates seems like a great idea. We all know that plants, driven by light energy and photosynthesis, produce sugar and starch. The plant uses this for growth and development. So the theory goes – if we supplement our nutrient solution with those very same sugars and starches, then the plant won’t have to make them all for itself and can therefore devote its energy to other things – such as making big flowers and fruits! Alternatively, if the plant is undergoing a period of physical stress (such as flowering or fruiting) then the supplementation of those sugars and starches will enable the plant to grow and develop at warp speed as we have removed a limiting factor. Unfortunately all this seems feasible in a text book but, as usual, these things are rarely as simple in real life.
Why not? Well, put simply, it’s one thing to supplement a plant with carbs in a lab, quite another to do so in vivo (real life – real situation.) You can inject carbs directly into a stem or a leaf, for instance, using laboratory techniques, but surely the crunch question is: can a plant uptake carbohydrates through its roots? I have been involved in research that aimed to determine whether plants could actually uptake and utilize carbohydrates and, if so, what could they uptake and utilize. Carbohydrates range in size from very small, simple structures like glucose or fructose through to enormously large, complex molecules like polysaccharides. So – did I find that plants could uptake simple and complex carbohydrates? Other than some very simple, and small carbohydrates (e.g. plain table sugar or fructose / glucose) plants essentially cannot take up other more complex carbohydrates through their root zone. Why? It’s because of a unique little barrier in the roots called the Casparian strip – complete with his sidekick the endodermis. Essentially the Casparian strip forces everything, and that includes carbohydrates, through the endodermis to be actively selected or rejected for uptake.

Ready For The Science Bit? Introducing The Casparian Strip – Your Plant’s Very Own Homeland Security!
Inside the roots of your plants sits a very innocuous and extremely important band of cells – called the Casparian Strip. I like to think of this as a sort of “security guard” for your plant. It is used to block the passive flow of materials ( travelling between the cells), such as water and solutes into the main water carrying columns of the plant – the xylem and phloem. By doing this it forces everything to actively pass through or be rejected by the endodermis. Once within the epidermis, water passes through the cortex, mainly traveling between the cells. However, in order to enter the stele, it must pass through the cytoplasm of the cells of the endodermis. Once within the stele, water is free again to move between cells as well as through them. For solutes to pass through the endodermis they must be in inorganic, ionic form to be transported across to the stele. As you can see getting water and nutrients inside your plants is no easy process!
An interesting side note for people who grow with organic nutrients.
When you hear of the virtues of organic fertilizers, remember that such materials are unable to meet any nutritional needs of the plant until they have been degraded / converted into inorganic forms. Organic matter does play an important role in making good soil texture and rhizosphere health, but it can only meet the nutritional needs of the plant to the extent that it can yield inorganic ions. Once within the epidermis, only the inorganic ions pass inward from cell to cell.

Amino Acid supplements and supplementation – possible or possibilities?
Okay, after that bombshell, let’s take a look at Amino Acids. These are fascinating little things, these miniature building blocks of protein – body builders love them and, according to many growers, plants do too. So what roles do amino acids play in plant nutrition?


Table 1 shows the 21 Proteinogenic Amino Acids
There are total of 21 Amino Acids used in the production of protein and you’ve probably seen most of them listed on the back of a bottle by now. They are known as Proteinogenic Amino Acids

Every chemical reaction or process that goes on inside a plant relies on protein. From photosynthesis through to hormone production, growth and development, stress – proteins are used by the plant for every aspect of its life, so we can see that amino acids are very important in the big scheme of things.
This importance has not escaped the attention of researchers or manufacturers of plant nutrients and additives. We are now seeing quite a few emerging products that contain these essential building blocks of life. One area being examined by both researchers and manufacturers are amino acids that are direct precursors to hormones. Tryptophan is one popular amino acid being researched as it is the direct precursor to IAA - a powerful growth hormone. Arginine is one of the precursors for cytokinins and is a major player in the production of flowers and fruits on a biochemical level. Other exciting roles of amino acids include their part in mitigating plant stress. Proline is produced by the plant in huge quantities during times of stress to assist with osmotic balance and to maintain a positive water status.
Amino acids are also used as a source of nitrogen in the root zone as they are delaminated by rhizosphere bacteria and fungi. The bacteria feed on the amino acids and in return nitrogen, in the form of ammonia, is released which can be absorbed by the plant. Ammonia is very rapidly absorbed and utilized by the plant and, in small quantities, is very beneficial to the support of rapid growth and development.
A new and very exciting and emerging area of amino acid research, and one that I am very actively involved in, is the role played by accumulated amino acids. In plants, the roles of accumulated amino acids varies from acting as an osmolyte, the regulation of ion transport, modulating stomatal opening, and detoxification of heavy metals. Amino acids also affect the synthesis and activity of enzymes, and most excitingly of all play a major role in gene expression!
So it’s readily apparent why plant nutrient manufacturers would be interested in the humble amino acid – they could be very useful to growers! As useful as might be, amino acids are also commonly misunderstood – just like the carbohydrates we looked at earlier. Once again theory is getting way in front of reality.
As with carbohydrates no one really looked at whether plants can take actively up amino acids through their roots. A major focus of my research is examining how or if plants can take up amino acids via their roots. One method is to feed plants a solution of radioactively labelled amino acids and then take special x-rays of the whole plant 24 hours later. You can actually visualize the extent of the amino acid uptake. In all of the experiments I’ve been involved in, almost none of the amino acid solution fed to the plants had been absorbed by the roots and transported to the leaves. So what’s at play here? Once again it’s the role of the Capsarian strip and endodermis coming into play and excluding the uptake of almost all of the amino acid solution fed to the plants. Amino acid supplementation does work to a minor extent – as some, but very few, of those root fed amino acids are absorbed by the plant. The exciting thing is that even that tiny amount that is absorbed positively affects the growth and development of plants.

So what did we learn?
Only simple sugars are absorbed by the plant root system. And only a very small amount of any amino acids supplied will ever be taken up by your plant’s root system. So what does that mean? Are carboyhydrate and amino acid producs a waste of your time? No – not exactly. Even when a small amount of amino acids are absorbed by the plant, we can get some positive effects. The simple sugars in your carbohydrate products do get absorbed. Others form a good source of food for beneficial bacteria in your root zone. So there are some benefits from using these types of products – just probably not to the degree that some of us may have hoped.
Feeding your plants carbohydrate and amino supplements is not a waste of your time or money – in fact many of those simple and complex carbohydrates serve as food for the friendly bacteria and fungi in your root zone. But don’t forget that your plant’s roots constantly exude simple and complex, carbohydrates, amino acids and proteins into the rhizospere and that those exudates serve as food and growth promoting compounds for many of the beneficial bacteria, fungi and micro organisms present in your plant’s rhizoshpere.
Root exudates are commonly divided into two classes. Low-molecular weight compounds – such as amino acids, organic acids, sugars, and other secondary metabolites and high molecular weight exudates – such as mucilage (polysaccharides or complex carbs) and proteins. The rhizospheric bacteria and fungi return the favor, in a symbiotic relationship, by breaking down complex products in the rhizosphere into ionic forms the plant can absorb as well as excreting protein and secondary signalling molecules of their own that benefit the plant by increasing its rate of growth and development.
In fact, much or all of the apparent success of carbohydrate and amino acids products are due to this inadvertent power feeding of your root zone friendlies and the symbiotic benefits they return to your plants.

The Future of Carbohydrate and Amino Acids?
Biochemists and plant researchers around the world are conducting research into methods of delivering carbohydrates and or amino acids directly into the plant in large or precisely controlled amounts. We are conducting research on developing radical new delivery methods for compounds that are otherwise impossible to deliver to plants in a controlled or effective manner. Techniques such as bio and nano encapsulation technologies are currently being pursued and developed – the promise of these techniques is huge. They could allow things like complex carbohydrates and amino acids to be delivered to your plants as they need them.


DISCUSSION
 

jammie

ganjatologist
Veteran
or in my case with DWC- feed the water. i use subculture b with trichaderma along with a chemical nute for the best of both worlds.
 

fungzyme

Active member
or in my case with DWC- feed the water. i use subculture b with trichaderma along with a chemical nute for the best of both worlds.

Don't the high concentrations of chemical salts in your nutes kill off your beneficial bacteria almost immediately?
 

jammie

ganjatologist
Veteran
hey there fungzyme. not at all. i talked with the tech rep and its no problems at all. mycorryzials don't do well in hydro/dwc. the last half of flowering my 5 gal buckets were 78-80 and no root rot. i did change out the solution every 14 days and replaced with fresh brewed bennies
 

cchem

Member
Expert Eye: Carbohydrates and Amino Acid Products
BY URBAN GARDEN MAGAZINE ⋅ JULY 12, 2010 ⋅ EMAIL THIS POST ⋅ PRINT THIS POST ⋅ POST A COMMENT
FILED UNDER AMINO, AMINO ACID, AMINO ACIDS, AMINOS, CARBOHYDRATES, CARBS, CASPARIAN, CASPARIAN STRIP, ISSUE 11, MOLASSES, PHLOEM, PLANT NUTRITION, ROOTS, STEVE BERLOW, STEVEN BERLOW, SUGAR, XYLEM
What’s the big deal with carbohydrate and amino acid products these days? Are they being used or misused by growers? We asked Steve Berlow, a research consultant for Florigen Laboratories in BC, Canada to give us his insider perspective on the rise of carbohydrate and amino acid based products in the marketplace in recent years…

The hydroponics and indoor gardening industry is rapidly changing and evolving. Recently the pace of that change has become quite staggering with new products seeming to appear almost daily – nowhere is this more prominent than in the field of plant nutrition. In the last few years the hydroponic nutrient market has progressed from offering base nutrients and some phosphorus flowering boosters through to today’s market where a staggering (some might say ‘bewildering’) array of new technologies and theories are promoted.
Two product types that have been causing a lot of chatter in the growing community are carbohydrate (sugar) supplements and amino acid based additives. And for good reason. Sugars and amino acids are both interesting concepts in the context of plant nutrition and many experts consider them to be on the cutting edge. All sounds pretty exciting doesn’t it? But before you rush off and buy that next fancy-labelled bottle of sugary or amino acid goodness, you really should get your head around some basic facts concerning these substances and the ability of plants to make use of them.

Carbohydrates – Are They Really ‘Candy’ For Your Plants?
You’ve probably heard the hype about carbs: “Feed your plants supplemental carbs and turn them into Olympic Gold Medal winners!”
So a grower walks into their local store, decides to buy a big bottle of some sugary carb supplement, with the intention of deploying it on his next res change. The notion is that the plants will suck up the carbs and get a boost of ‘pure energy’ without having to go through the hassle of producing them as a product of photosynthesis.
Errrr, sorry to spoil the big carb party, but it’s not actually that straight forward. The carbohydrate supplement is definitely a case where theory got ahead of practice. In theory providing your plants with an array of simple and complex carbohydrates seems like a great idea. We all know that plants, driven by light energy and photosynthesis, produce sugar and starch. The plant uses this for growth and development. So the theory goes – if we supplement our nutrient solution with those very same sugars and starches, then the plant won’t have to make them all for itself and can therefore devote its energy to other things – such as making big flowers and fruits! Alternatively, if the plant is undergoing a period of physical stress (such as flowering or fruiting) then the supplementation of those sugars and starches will enable the plant to grow and develop at warp speed as we have removed a limiting factor. Unfortunately all this seems feasible in a text book but, as usual, these things are rarely as simple in real life.
Why not? Well, put simply, it’s one thing to supplement a plant with carbs in a lab, quite another to do so in vivo (real life – real situation.) You can inject carbs directly into a stem or a leaf, for instance, using laboratory techniques, but surely the crunch question is: can a plant uptake carbohydrates through its roots? I have been involved in research that aimed to determine whether plants could actually uptake and utilize carbohydrates and, if so, what could they uptake and utilize. Carbohydrates range in size from very small, simple structures like glucose or fructose through to enormously large, complex molecules like polysaccharides. So – did I find that plants could uptake simple and complex carbohydrates? Other than some very simple, and small carbohydrates (e.g. plain table sugar or fructose / glucose) plants essentially cannot take up other more complex carbohydrates through their root zone. Why? It’s because of a unique little barrier in the roots called the Casparian strip – complete with his sidekick the endodermis. Essentially the Casparian strip forces everything, and that includes carbohydrates, through the endodermis to be actively selected or rejected for uptake.

Ready For The Science Bit? Introducing The Casparian Strip – Your Plant’s Very Own Homeland Security!
Inside the roots of your plants sits a very innocuous and extremely important band of cells – called the Casparian Strip. I like to think of this as a sort of “security guard” for your plant. It is used to block the passive flow of materials ( travelling between the cells), such as water and solutes into the main water carrying columns of the plant – the xylem and phloem. By doing this it forces everything to actively pass through or be rejected by the endodermis. Once within the epidermis, water passes through the cortex, mainly traveling between the cells. However, in order to enter the stele, it must pass through the cytoplasm of the cells of the endodermis. Once within the stele, water is free again to move between cells as well as through them. For solutes to pass through the endodermis they must be in inorganic, ionic form to be transported across to the stele. As you can see getting water and nutrients inside your plants is no easy process!
An interesting side note for people who grow with organic nutrients.
When you hear of the virtues of organic fertilizers, remember that such materials are unable to meet any nutritional needs of the plant until they have been degraded / converted into inorganic forms. Organic matter does play an important role in making good soil texture and rhizosphere health, but it can only meet the nutritional needs of the plant to the extent that it can yield inorganic ions. Once within the epidermis, only the inorganic ions pass inward from cell to cell.

Amino Acid supplements and supplementation – possible or possibilities?
Okay, after that bombshell, let’s take a look at Amino Acids. These are fascinating little things, these miniature building blocks of protein – body builders love them and, according to many growers, plants do too. So what roles do amino acids play in plant nutrition?


Table 1 shows the 21 Proteinogenic Amino Acids
There are total of 21 Amino Acids used in the production of protein and you’ve probably seen most of them listed on the back of a bottle by now. They are known as Proteinogenic Amino Acids

Every chemical reaction or process that goes on inside a plant relies on protein. From photosynthesis through to hormone production, growth and development, stress – proteins are used by the plant for every aspect of its life, so we can see that amino acids are very important in the big scheme of things.
This importance has not escaped the attention of researchers or manufacturers of plant nutrients and additives. We are now seeing quite a few emerging products that contain these essential building blocks of life. One area being examined by both researchers and manufacturers are amino acids that are direct precursors to hormones. Tryptophan is one popular amino acid being researched as it is the direct precursor to IAA - a powerful growth hormone. Arginine is one of the precursors for cytokinins and is a major player in the production of flowers and fruits on a biochemical level. Other exciting roles of amino acids include their part in mitigating plant stress. Proline is produced by the plant in huge quantities during times of stress to assist with osmotic balance and to maintain a positive water status.
Amino acids are also used as a source of nitrogen in the root zone as they are delaminated by rhizosphere bacteria and fungi. The bacteria feed on the amino acids and in return nitrogen, in the form of ammonia, is released which can be absorbed by the plant. Ammonia is very rapidly absorbed and utilized by the plant and, in small quantities, is very beneficial to the support of rapid growth and development.
A new and very exciting and emerging area of amino acid research, and one that I am very actively involved in, is the role played by accumulated amino acids. In plants, the roles of accumulated amino acids varies from acting as an osmolyte, the regulation of ion transport, modulating stomatal opening, and detoxification of heavy metals. Amino acids also affect the synthesis and activity of enzymes, and most excitingly of all play a major role in gene expression!
So it’s readily apparent why plant nutrient manufacturers would be interested in the humble amino acid – they could be very useful to growers! As useful as might be, amino acids are also commonly misunderstood – just like the carbohydrates we looked at earlier. Once again theory is getting way in front of reality.
As with carbohydrates no one really looked at whether plants can take actively up amino acids through their roots. A major focus of my research is examining how or if plants can take up amino acids via their roots. One method is to feed plants a solution of radioactively labelled amino acids and then take special x-rays of the whole plant 24 hours later. You can actually visualize the extent of the amino acid uptake. In all of the experiments I’ve been involved in, almost none of the amino acid solution fed to the plants had been absorbed by the roots and transported to the leaves. So what’s at play here? Once again it’s the role of the Capsarian strip and endodermis coming into play and excluding the uptake of almost all of the amino acid solution fed to the plants. Amino acid supplementation does work to a minor extent – as some, but very few, of those root fed amino acids are absorbed by the plant. The exciting thing is that even that tiny amount that is absorbed positively affects the growth and development of plants.

So what did we learn?
Only simple sugars are absorbed by the plant root system. And only a very small amount of any amino acids supplied will ever be taken up by your plant’s root system. So what does that mean? Are carboyhydrate and amino acid producs a waste of your time? No – not exactly. Even when a small amount of amino acids are absorbed by the plant, we can get some positive effects. The simple sugars in your carbohydrate products do get absorbed. Others form a good source of food for beneficial bacteria in your root zone. So there are some benefits from using these types of products – just probably not to the degree that some of us may have hoped.
Feeding your plants carbohydrate and amino supplements is not a waste of your time or money – in fact many of those simple and complex carbohydrates serve as food for the friendly bacteria and fungi in your root zone. But don’t forget that your plant’s roots constantly exude simple and complex, carbohydrates, amino acids and proteins into the rhizospere and that those exudates serve as food and growth promoting compounds for many of the beneficial bacteria, fungi and micro organisms present in your plant’s rhizoshpere.
Root exudates are commonly divided into two classes. Low-molecular weight compounds – such as amino acids, organic acids, sugars, and other secondary metabolites and high molecular weight exudates – such as mucilage (polysaccharides or complex carbs) and proteins. The rhizospheric bacteria and fungi return the favor, in a symbiotic relationship, by breaking down complex products in the rhizosphere into ionic forms the plant can absorb as well as excreting protein and secondary signalling molecules of their own that benefit the plant by increasing its rate of growth and development.
In fact, much or all of the apparent success of carbohydrate and amino acids products are due to this inadvertent power feeding of your root zone friendlies and the symbiotic benefits they return to your plants.

The Future of Carbohydrate and Amino Acids?
Biochemists and plant researchers around the world are conducting research into methods of delivering carbohydrates and or amino acids directly into the plant in large or precisely controlled amounts. We are conducting research on developing radical new delivery methods for compounds that are otherwise impossible to deliver to plants in a controlled or effective manner. Techniques such as bio and nano encapsulation technologies are currently being pursued and developed – the promise of these techniques is huge. They could allow things like complex carbohydrates and amino acids to be delivered to your plants as they need them.


DISCUSSION

Yep it's written by Steve Berlow - PGR pedlar (Superbud, Phosphoload and Flower Dragon) and scumbag thinly disguised as businessman. He's blowing it, Research shows that C3 plants uptake a great deal of L-amino acids. As for carbs that's another thing the jury is out on as to what degree they are uptaken and translocated - however anyone using molasses will tell you it's good for plants and simple carbohydrates and sugars with low molecular weights definitely penetrate the Capsarian Strip as Berlow puts it. The thing is it is far more complex than presented here with numerous biochemical mechanisms coming into play. But very simply - C3 plants are shown to uptake large amounts of L-amino acids via the root system.
 
Yep cchem......good call!! I also found that information to be somewhat lacking in accuracy and context. It being written by a PGR peddler explains LOTS!! ROFL!!

The article leaves out the MOST important parts about amino's and did not mention anything about left spinning amino's specifically and the even more important facts about synthetic amino's and what they can and can not do.

I do not think the article mentioned proteins at ALL which is possibly even MORE important than the previously mentioned left out important stuff that people really need to know and understand. Especially when talking about "future" technologies like protein based nutrients which are now on the market.........

I also think enzymes is yet another important key to the puzzle that was left out of the article that people really have no clue about as far as which product to get/use for which growing environment.....cant tell ya how many times I have seen Hygrozyme misused and then blamed for causing the root rot it was added to fix!!!

I just love when nutrient peddlers try and pretend to provide "helpful" articles and information about things they really have no understanding of other than what was taught in the product "training" class.....LOL!!!
 

cchem

Member
Yep cchem......good call!! I also found that information to be somewhat lacking in accuracy and context. It being written by a PGR peddler explains LOTS!! ROFL!!

The article leaves out the MOST important parts about amino's and did not mention anything about left spinning amino's specifically and the even more important facts about synthetic amino's and what they can and can not do.

I do not think the article mentioned proteins at ALL which is possibly even MORE important than the previously mentioned left out important stuff that people really need to know and understand. Especially when talking about "future" technologies like protein based nutrients which are now on the market.........

I also think enzymes is yet another important key to the puzzle that was left out of the article that people really have no clue about as far as which product to get/use for which growing environment.....cant tell ya how many times I have seen Hygrozyme misused and then blamed for causing the root rot it was added to fix!!!

I just love when nutrient peddlers try and pretend to provide "helpful" articles and information about things they really have no understanding of other than what was taught in the product "training" class.....LOL!!!

I agree totally. Science still has a long way to go in understanding many things re plant physiology and biochemistry and in many cases while they see growth responses in research they are yet to understand why and what pathways are used etc. Enzymes are incredibly unstable in liquid suspension - typically they only have about a 6-8 month shelf life in dry form when stored at approximately 4 Celsius so I'm not a big fan of liquid enzyme products. For instance, cellulose enzymes are created by Trichoderma sp so better to go this way in my own opinion or buy dry enzymes and store correctly and use appropriately. A very close aquaintence I have worked with over the years, Peter Keating PhD did his biochem thesis on, among other things, enzymes and created a company producing enzymes after completing his PhD. He laughed his ass off when reading the labels of zyme products. Actually, he laughed his ass off when reading many of the claims manufacturers make re many products. Either way Berlow is talking garbage and has it wrong even with understanding the complexity of uptake and translocation. Carbs (actually sugars which the plant then converts to carbohydrates), for instance, are uptaken through the roots and this has been measured and demonstrated but for the most part the carbs/sugars will remain in the roots until such a point as the plant actually requires them. Then comes the question of translocation and cell wall penetration and these carbs/sugars making it to where they are most needed. Science really doesn't have conclusive answers to this but some clown from the hydro industry with no degree in chemistry or plant physiology supposedly does. All I can say is "clown shoes" and thanks for the alar and paclobutrazol Steve! :moon:
 
Excellent post. It is nice to know and extremely refreshing to read your post and know that there are others out there that understand the problems in todays market. The hydroponics industry has exploded in the last 10 years and the products that are being marketed is totally out of control IMO.....and the fact that new products are coming out on almost a daily basis does not help matters either.

And I also agree about enzymes.....not only the problem of shelf life and storage come into play, but as you mentioned "stability". Most do not realize that one single enzyme can perform literally thousands of chemical conversions and actions in a millisecond. How on earth would you even be able to gauge the dosage with out knowing MANY biological factors about the solution it is being added to for starters??? The answer is you can not. Yet people buy and add enzymes every day without thinking twice about it......

This combined with not really knowing the difference between an organic compound or how much the solution contains is a recipe for disaster. It kills me when I read a post about a grower adding sterilizers like H202 or the others, in an attempt to run a "sterile" program.....and then uses a organic based nutrient and additives.............?????????????

The funny thing about that one is that some of the most experienced growers you will ever find on public forums are the WORST offenders!! SAD!! And unfortunately the newer less experienced growers will follow these guys advice to the tee without question. And the bad habits and information is then passed on and on and on and on..........

And the guy at the hydro store which is suppose to know what he is doing and selling is suggesting and guiding the grower down this road that leads to almost certain failure...guaranteed!!

The amino acids dilemma is a big one IMO. And a recent study I just read shows that synthetic aminos are and able to be absorbed through the root system, but with synthetic amino's they are finding that they are not being used by the plant at all. NONE! ZERO! They just sit there so to speak.......much evidence is showing that synthetic amino's are worthless to the plant.
 

cchem

Member
Excellent post. It is nice to know and extremely refreshing to read your post and know that there are others out there that understand the problems in todays market. The hydroponics industry has exploded in the last 10 years and the products that are being marketed is totally out of control IMO.....and the fact that new products are coming out on almost a daily basis does not help matters either.

And I also agree about enzymes.....not only the problem of shelf life and storage come into play, but as you mentioned "stability". Most do not realize that one single enzyme can perform literally thousands of chemical conversions and actions in a millisecond. How on earth would you even be able to gauge the dosage with out knowing MANY biological factors about the solution it is being added to for starters??? The answer is you can not. Yet people buy and add enzymes every day without thinking twice about it......

This combined with not really knowing the difference between an organic compound or how much the solution contains is a recipe for disaster. It kills me when I read a post about a grower adding sterilizers like H202 or the others, in an attempt to run a "sterile" program.....and then uses a organic based nutrient and additives.............?????????????

The funny thing about that one is that some of the most experienced growers you will ever find on public forums are the WORST offenders!! SAD!! And unfortunately the newer less experienced growers will follow these guys advice to the tee without question. And the bad habits and information is then passed on and on and on and on..........

And the guy at the hydro store which is suppose to know what he is doing and selling is suggesting and guiding the grower down this road that leads to almost certain failure...guaranteed!!

The amino acids dilemma is a big one IMO. And a recent study I just read shows that synthetic aminos are and able to be absorbed through the root system, but with synthetic amino's they are finding that they are not being used by the plant at all. NONE! ZERO! They just sit there so to speak.......much evidence is showing that synthetic amino's are worthless to the plant.

Love where you're coming from BioMaster - you clearly know your stuff. Re amino's I think also there is some probability of this being crop specific as to requirements, uptake and translocation. Plant's are extremely proficient at producing vitamins and amino acids where environment and nutrition is optimal and therefore are unlikely to require additional amino acids under ideal conditions. I would love to read the research paper you speak of as I haven't come across that one yet. Have you got a link to it or a copy that I can get? As far as I am aware the only very effective amino acid is glycine (the most simple form of amino acid with low molecular weight) because the plant recognizes it as an N source. With Methionine (C5H11NO2S) there are some questions around its bioavailability but it stands to reason that hypothetically the plant may recognize it as an S source. Theoretically speaking (and very hypothetical at that) what is feasible is to reduce N and S in solution to force uptake and translocation of aminos - as yet I am yet to find any research on this and maybe will pursue this theory at some point.

And yes it's sad that so many growers believe the garbage they are fed by manufacturers and retailers and so called grow gurus who are often shilling for companies on forums. I was recently doing consultancy to a large med grower (several licensed large operations) who is actually a chemist and his lack of knowledge staggered me. He said that he had a botanist on his team but I found this hard to believe based on what he was telling me re their nutritional regime. So even educated people are getting it wrong in many instances - although in this guys case he is a sharp cookie and after I gave him some basic information he was able to take it from there and comprehend the logic through his understanding of chemistry. And funny that you mention it - they were using hydrogen peroxide in coco and standard nutrients. 3 grows. One using AN, one using GH 3 part (I reformulated the micro to suit coco for them) and another using another nute regime - his "master growers" all swore by their approach but all of them were suffering calcium deficiencies which their botanist picked up. It's definitely cowboy country out there.
 

Blaz3

Member
1.Will plain table sugar work better than mollases?


2.Can you foliar spray,with say,Botanicare Sweet..since the roots cannot take in complex carbs..can the stomata??
 
1.Will plain table sugar work better than mollases?


2.Can you foliar spray,with say,Botanicare Sweet..since the roots cannot take in complex carbs..can the stomata??

1. No -table sugar will not be better and should NOT be used at all in horticulture.

2. You can foliar spray just about anything you want......

Carbs and the right type of amino's when used properly can help improve plant growth and health tremendously. Careful what you read or hear about carbs and amino's as MOST ALL of it is false or not accurate. MANY myths surrounding the use of carbs and amino's.

You should read this thread over well as it contains very detailed and important information about left spinning amino's (L-Amino).

Molasses works well because it feeds microbiology and also provides a great source for calcium and magnesium.......table sugar does not.....about the only thing you will get from using table sugar is BUGS!
 

Blaz3

Member
Can carbs (mollases) be absorbed via foliar spray?Do you have to spray the bottom of leaves in order for foliar spraying to work?.
 
Can carbs (mollases) be absorbed via foliar spray?Do you have to spray the bottom of leaves in order for foliar spraying to work?.

Partial C&P -

Dutch Master did a study by studying leaf (foliar sprayed) versus root absorption of radio-active tagged complex carbohydrates and amino acids at a prominent Vancouver University and discovered that these molecules are just too big to be effectively absorbed by the roots, but can be easily and effectively absorbed by the leaves.

This same method of radio-tagging was also used in comparing the efficiency of plant use of foliar-fed nutrients versus soil-applied nutrients near the roots, The resulting data found foliar feeding provided about 95 percent efficiency of use compared to about 10 percent of use from soil applications!

End Partial C&P -

Little trivia for ya... these test that allowed the scientist to "see" the plant nutrients inside of the plant via the radio-tagging, they determined that plant nutrients moved at the rate of about one foot per hour to all parts of the plants.

Dutch Masters has pretty much paved the way for foliar feeding methods and products. They did major studies in foliar and basically took all the information originally known about foliar feeding from a Dr H.B. Turkey, and ran with it from there developing some pretty impressive foliar products like Liquid Light, Saturator, and Reverse......

If memory serves, DNA Genetics uses the product Reverse in there process when they find the males they want to select for breeding.
 

Blaz3

Member
Wow BioMaster,plus rep man.Excellent information.

My question is why cant table sugar be used by plants?It IS sucrose,a very simple carbohydrate.I have done research and it seems that roots can aborb such carbs as sucrose,glucose,xylose,etc..mollases contains several different forms of carbs that plants CAN theoritcally absorb via root membrane.

So why not sucrose?..aka table sugar...and why dont people more commonly spray mollses via foliarfeed?...And as far as foliar feeding,what are the harms of spraying buds with mollses/carb synthesizer?...
 

catalyte

Active member
Veteran
great topic.

i guess the jury's still out on this, even though there is strong evidence that these substances are beneficial and are absorbed by c3 plants...
 

Heusinomics

Active member
Long time reader 1st tm poster &Overgrow refugee.
Bump 4 sm goodQs!
After all botanicare does sell a version of sweet that is pure "cane sugar" wich shd b table sugar w/ or w/out molasses. And GH flora nector says on its lable it is17.5% cane sugar 7.5% malt extract and only 5%molasses.! I am also a big proponent of molasses 4ACT's n hav much iexp on carbs & T's for foliar for increasing both flavor AND YEILD!
 

habeeb

follow your heart
ICMag Donor
Veteran
I've seen some people mention Molasses, and wanted to make mention they also have K and iron in them.

mistress some time back, wrote a good thing explaining how to convert the label info to ppm I believe, I think it's in here
 

Biatchzxz

Where am I?
Veteran
Great info Jammie. Yo I don't know what happened but I might not giving you a No by accident to was this post helpful. I'm not sure. But if I did I apologize I made up for it next post I hit yes but I'm on my cell so it might of hit no with my fat fingers. So I appologize if that's what happene . Wasn't intentional. I might be mistaken could of been there before I pressed it but just In case Im sorry
 

Hash Zeppelin

Ski Bum Rodeo Clown
Premium user
ICMag Donor
Veteran
I have a root regiment now that keeps my roots pure white in soil. The soil shakes off and they are milk white.

1. Root accelerator plus. Makes roots long.
2. Gh rapid start. Makes roots fat and hairy.
3. Great white. It is a microbes that keep roots white by eating bad stuff. (Great white has been replaced by azos, mykos, and og tea veganic special sauce).
4. Raw sweet and molasses. Feeds the microbe like steroids.
5. Amino acids. Also feed microbes, and more importantly works in conjunction with Aptus facilitator.
6. Aptus in combination with all this prevents salt build ups, ph lock out and allows your plants to eat much much more.
 
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