[ValleyKush]

That, sir is why I am sticking to soil for now. It bothered me way to much that I was chosing my mothers with narrow vision, hate to think that I shortcut the mother of all phenotypes and scraped it because of it.

How do you preserve the plants that you like? Cut clones of all before u flower them or just reveg? I have been considering grafting every pheontype I get to one plant, just to keep my count down.

Maybe i missed it but ur title says "fem", are all your strains from fem seeds? and what traits are you breeding for?

[Builtaforest]

I really like your thinking Tolkin!

I've been thinking of a few VERY similar crosses. Mad respect on the messin with femming

BE staying a bit longer

[Tolkin Bowls]

Originally Posted by ValleyKush

That, sir is why I am sticking to soil for now. It bothered me way to much that I was chosing my mothers with narrow vision, hate to think that I shortcut the mother of all phenotypes and scraped it because of it.

How do you preserve the plants that you like? Cut clones of all before u flower them or just reveg? I have been considering grafting every pheontype I get to one plant, just to keep my count down.

Maybe i missed it but ur title says "fem", are all your strains from fem seeds? and what traits are you breeding for?

I am not too worried about choosing my mothers with narrow vision. Although it is not an ideal situation, I prefer to think of it as applying selective pressure towards finding plants that will grow well within the confines of my system. Sure some nice plants will get away from me but, if I run enough numbers I will find wonderful plants that also do well in the style that I choose to grow. Also once I find the one I am looking for my system excels at mono cropping.

For preservation I take clones of everything before I start to flower then cull the non keepers at a later date.

Grafting is a great option. There is a great thread about grafting in the side by side section. Have you read it?

As for the females seeds, I have only run two female varieties in the last 8 years. I wanted to run standard Malawi but, someone stole them from Ace right before the last release. As a result I decided to try the Fem version. When it came to the Peyote Purple it was hard to ignore the amazing grow reports here on icmag. So I decided to give them a go and I have been most pleased with the results. Really remarkable plants.

Thanks for you support and enjoy this wonderful weather that we have been having


Builtaforest: At first I was not in to female seeds because I was misinformed. After many years of research I am excited about trying my hand at a Gynoecious Line. I think that it will be an easier way for me to be successful at my breeding project. I plan to use at least 3 females and at least 3 pollen inputs from other females for each generation.

For those that do not know Gynoecious means plants producing female flowers only, produces seeds but no pollen, the female of a dioecious population. In some plant populations, all individuals are gynoecious with non sexual reproduction used to produce the next generation.




I would like to post some qoutes from Tom hill on the merits of Gynoecious Line breeding. I think he can speak more elegantly than I , as to why I want to follow this course. Sorry For the wall of text



Originally Posted by TomHill

Yes let's discuss it further. First let's just drop the term feminization as it places too much importance on this one small side effect of what reversals bring to the table. In fact screw feminized seeds haha. What reversals bring to the table is that we can now utilize much more efficient techniques than previously with male female matings. Instead of half-sib family selection now we can utilize the pedigree method, or S1 progeny selection. It truly is a massive step forward on all counts. If you are a numbers guy, then surely you can grasp that our odds of success increase with selections among 100 outstanding females in comparison to 50 outstanding females coupled with 50 males that in comparison we know jack shit about as far as our pipe/scale/etc is concerned. This basic principle is true whether we are improving a line or creating a hybrid. As both a grower and a breeder I am a space/numbers monger, and I want to fill that space with things I can evaluate with my pipe, or scale, or etc. -T


It will limit this bullshit nonsensical phenotypic male selection the vast majority of folks are using now.


Folks will instead make selection that actually make sense.


It places no limits while at the same time providing some serious advantages and options that were previously off the table.


Yes, intensive inbreeding fixes traits, the good the bad and the ugly. Deleterious recessives need to be unmasked (homozygous) before they can be fully dealt with/culled. Skunk 1 is actually a good example of a line where they've been mostly purged. If they are not purged and instead masked, they will only resurfaced again later down the line.

let's say I have 10 outstanding females that I self to create 10 families to plug into a pedigree method type breeding program, and you have 5 coupled with 5 males that you plug into a full-sib family selection type program. Let's give ourselves 2-3 cycles of selection. 2 of my ten lines survive culling ranking highest and are then bulked. You do the same %wise, and one of your 5 lines survive your program. Not only will the selfing program produce a higher rate of homogeneity but while you were masking deleterious recessives to resurface at a later date, I was purging them from the population.

[Tolkin Bowls]

CONT

Originally Posted by TomHill
Recombination still ocurrs with the technique (unless all loci are fixed) so that is not true. The ten individuals in the above example I began with could have been the offspring obtained from selfing a single individual (elite clone).

What I see a lot of is breeders poddy-mouthing these techniques with all kind of crap about it creating intersex individuals so what do they do. They instead go off on some backcrossing program often 3 consecutive backcrosses using the elite clone as the recurrent parent and where does that bring them? <To the exact same place a single cycle of selfing would have brought them - intersex plants and all, lol. At least with the selfing, we could have actually made some improvements while we were pissing around. -Tom

Here are some more quotes from tom

About Low genetic variation in general:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHill
There are several misconceptions regarding breeding by way of reversals.
Here are a few:

That it narrows the genepool. Nonsense, as stated earlier that is a product of numbers, not technique.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHill
[i]
It does not limit phenotypic variation either that was misconception #4. That is a product of numbers, not technique. IE, there is no mathematical difference between 1:1 male/female matings and 1:1 female/female matings, they both narrow variation within a given population at the exact same rate

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHill
No sso feminized seeds are not basically clones of one plant that is misconception #2. Recombination still occurrs with this technique. Selfing is more intensive than 1:1 by approximately X3 but reversal techniques are not limited to selfing. As mentioned, you can open pollinate 20 female individuals if you wanted, and 1:1 male/female selection would be a double digit fold more intensive than that. So absolutely not, the technique is in noway shape or form bound to intensive inbreeding, that's about numbers, plain and simple.

My true motivation here is to teach 3rd grade math in 106 different languages I guess, lol

[Tolkin Bowls]

CONT

About the Loss of male genetic being a potential hazard:


Originally Posted by TomHill
That's correct it is never too late if your hypothesis of male importance ever proves out. No, it doesn't make sense to me. Yes you understand correctly, I have zero reservations about gynoecious selections, and I have not once heard a lucid argument against them, let alone a science-based one - I don't believe you have either but I'm all ears. -Tom


Originally Posted by TomHill
We explain males because dioecy stands a better chance than hermaphroditism in a natural selection evolutionary setting. It is generally accepted that a species containing males is better able to survive than one that doesn't because it promotes outcrossing thereby avoiding inbreeding depression. However, if we are thinking about using this as a lucid argument against gynoecious selection, then we may as well do away with artificial selection in its entirety too while we are at it, imo. Artificial selection -breeding- begins with throwing out what happens in nature. -T

About the Loss of ability to make f2's or breed:


Originally Posted by TomHill
If I was to speculate would-be breeders might have to pick up a book or two before proceeding, and there may be a bit less random outcrossing occurring. The genepool would welcome both of those actions imo.-T


Originally Posted by TomHill

That is really what we're talking about isn't it, that female seeds limit folk with a feeble understanding in regards to how to proceed. Too bad, you'll get no sympathy from me. If anybody needs help I as well as others are always available, but we'll not sit here and entertain feeling sorry for you and your heebie jeebies about the topic when all that is required is a modicum of education and direction.

[Tolkin Bowls]

CONT

About if these beans good for the MJ community/industry at large?


If we were to entertain some of those thoughts for arguments sake -the fact remains- gynoecious selection is not a one way street without the option of flipping a U-turn, and so the poddy-mouthing of it seems a bit ridiculous to me.-Tom

About the Chemicals used:


Originally Posted by TomHill
If you are not comfortable with the idea of using chems for reversal then there are other methods available. Few if any are the plants I've seen anybody is working with can not be reversed via other techniques (light poisoning etc). I wonder how the Louis Bolk Institute et al would feel about some of these other techniques though and may even argue that indoor cultivation itself falls outside of their proposed organic protocol, ie a diversity limiting ecological detour regardless of whether or not you're using males, then what?

Tell you what here is a stick, there is the sand, draw the line where you like but just as in that posted document it will not likely be plain to see exactly where that line should be drawn. -T

About this dominating the market


Originally Posted by TomHill
What will dominate the market will be real breeding eventually. Homogeneity reached through either hererozygosity or homozygosity, more often the former for the gardener/grower. Tissue culture for those who know exactly what they want be they growers or breeders, and techs like haploid doubling/reverse breeding for those who'd like to preserve exact genotypes for longer periods and more simply than tissue culture currently can.

Originally Posted by TomHill
Quite frankly, I can't imagine anything holding a knowledgeable breeder back from gynoecious selections, excepting an ignorant customer base. -Tom


For all of these reasons and more i want to try my hand a Gynoecious line breeding.

Sorry for the wall of text I just thought that these would allow those not familiar with the merits gynoecious selections to get some answers. Chimera also has some great things to say about gynoecious populations but, i am having trouble finding quotes at the moment.

Thank you for all the support and interest in my project.

[ValleyKush]

I meant the light burn and ppm stunting mostly. Maybe the best phenotype was super stunted and your worst had the most dialed so you get backward results and miss on the best genetics. just my 2cents, you obviously are doing well either way.

I havent seen that thread but I will certainly take a look, always on the look out for quality reads. Ive always had a hard time picking the keepers so it sounds perfect for me so i can hang on to a few phenos and not have to worry about so many mothers.

little rain for now, but the sun is back on its way enjoy your ladys comming into their own while they are still there

[sativa-herbivor]

Would Fem Malawi show intersex traits if done outdoor or was this just an indoor issue. Anyones experience or Dubi chime in. Most Appreciated.

[Builtaforest]

I believe the intersex traits come from the fact that this Malawi is few removed from landrace. Many longer flowering sativas have intersex traits naturally to insure the cycle of life. And in the end, it really comes down to proper testing from the breeders to minimize these traits (because consumers demand these traits) although many times it is a fine line/tradeoff on making sure the best combinations present themselves in seed, some intersex traits show... and this is not focused on feminized seeds at all either, regular or fem seeds have the same possibility for intersex traits in offspring for its still 1:1 crossing, but the true work lies in testing and I assure you Ace and Cannabiogen are our friends in this matter.

Think of all the chem and diesel crosses, hermies galore no matter the breeders promises... still simply untested 1:1 matings... for double the price at that!

It really is time the 'regular seed' crowd crawl out from their illusions. They charade on the back of science.... ironic

[Tolkin Bowls]

Originally Posted by ValleyKush

I meant the light burn and ppm stunting mostly. Maybe the best phenotype was super stunted and your worst had the most dialed so you get backward results and miss on the best genetics. just my 2cents, you obviously are doing well either way.

I havent seen that thread but I will certainly take a look, always on the look out for quality reads. Ive always had a hard time picking the keepers so it sounds perfect for me so i can hang on to a few phenos and not have to worry about so many mothers.

little rain for now, but the sun is back on its way enjoy your ladys comming into their own while they are still there

You are right it is not the most ideal way to do selections but, you work with what you have. Also I will be running many more malawis before I select my P1s. To me it is a numbers game if I run enough seeds I will find beautiful phenos that also work well with my style of growing. Sure I will miss out on some nice ones that were not dialed but, I will find other nice ones that grow well in my system. Also I almost never throw away a plant after just one run. Best to run it more that once to see if it expresses itself differently