[pinecone]

Originally Posted by VerdantGreen

hey pine, perhaps your water has low alkalinity for it's pH reading too. the fact you also successfully recycle your soil means it's unlikely there is much build up of calcium in there.

I did a bit of analysis and I think you may be onto something.

Our city water is very alkaline. For this reason we run a water softener which makes the water pretty bad for growing plants in (so I'm told). In the summer I use rain water, but it is not practical to harvest snow and ice so in the cooler months I water my plants with the same water we buy for drinking at the store. I have purchased RO water also to save on cost, but with mulch and no run-off I have not been using enough water to justify the effort.

Anyway, I did some calculations from the nutritional label and have determined that my water has 84.4 ppm of Ca, which doesn't sound like a lot. For reference my city water comes out at 311 ppm calcium carbonate (CaCO3) and about 70 ppm Ca (they are listed separately on the report).

Pine

[mad librettist]

let's not go overboard.

the reason for the flaming was a persistent insistence that everyone needed to check pH. Hydro-store style growchem was being ported over to organics so that people had familiar rituals to see them through. The vast majority of people don't need to bother with pH. Further, the vast majority of organic growers will do more harm than good if using the pH pen.


Your soil has a potential for buffering. That is fixed in the moment. If your water includes enough alkalinity to overcome that potential, you will have problems.

Also, calcium carbonate in particular is harmful to any soil when used in excess. To really decide on how much lime he needs, someone with lots of it in the water needs to do some math. Lime may be totally unnecessary. Adding an acid, on the other hand, gives you something similar to the eggshells and vinegar trick on top of buffering it down.

imo its always a mistake to presume that one idea will work equally as well for everyone else as it does for you, or that some method will be the best one to use the world over. i think local conditions and knowledge need to be taken into consideration when deciding which methods to employ/

This is exactly what Fukuoka stressed. If anything needs to be the party line, this is it.

It's also true that more than one way to solve a problem may exist. For the problem of alkalinity, some steps need to be taken in the soil, in the water before it is used, or both. Showing that it can be done with either doesn't show it can't be done with the other.

VG, have you checked out the Luebkes? Using their methods, which includes tilling in green manure with a spade plow:

In a ten-year period, the organic matter content of a clay loam soil on their farm was changed from 2% to 15%
Following downwind fallout from the Chernobyl nuclear reactor accident, root vegetables raised on their farm were uniquely free of radioactive contamination in comparison to other farms in the region
The nitrate content of vegetables raised on their farm was significantly lower than conventionally-grown produce in Austria
Soil and compost samples on their farm have well developed humus crumb and high numbers and diversity of microbes, as revealed by a specialized light microscope

[mad librettist]

VG, doing this test would let us know way more than just water testing:

https://www.ibiblio.org/steved/Luebke...-compost2.html

Potential pH Test

The potential pH test is a simple method for determining the exchange capacity of a soil or compost sample. Indirectly, it is a measure of biological activity and degree of humification. This test is described by Struchtemeyer in Basic Properties of Forest Soils (7).

In brief, two samples are prepared. The first sample is diluted with distilled water. A pH reading of this sample will provide the actual pH. The second sample is diluted with potassium chloride (.1 Molar KCl solution). A pH reading of this latter sample provides the potential pH.

The degree to which potassium ions displace hydrogen ions on the soil or compost colloids in solution will be reflected in the difference between the actual and potential pH readings. This is an indication of the ion buffering capacity, or the cation exchange capacity, of the sample. When the pH readings are further apart, they are an indication of poor exchange capacity. The aim is to achieve as little difference as possible; less than 0.5 pH units for soils and 0.3 pH units for compost is ideal.

During the humification process, microbes are actively building long-chain polymers of polysaccharides and other molecules. Well-developed humus has numerous exchange sites and therefore holds hydrogen ions more tightly. The actual pH and potential pH readings will be close together and indicate a high degree of microbial activity, humus structure, and surface area. Conversely, pH readings with divergent numbers are an indicator of poor humus development.

[Scrappy4]

VG, just curious if you have tried gypsum as a liming agent? As I understand it can both raise or lower the ph of soil. I have pretty much replaced dolomite lime with gypsum, azomite, oyster shell, crab meal and so on.....scrappy

[VerdantGreen]

hey scrappy, i have been considering gypsum, but really i probably dont need any extra calcium in my mix as i suspect that i have build up problems that mean i cant really recycle my soil. dolomite at least is adding more in the way of magnesium than calcium.
but as i mentioned earlier in the thread, rock phosphate, high P guano (which is basically fossilized guano and pretty much rock phosphate afaik) and even bonemeal are all liming agents.
what im trying is reducing the liming agents and adding a light dose of manure based ferts to keep the nutrient levels up. i've also used just rainwater during my present grow to see what difference that might make.

its not like im getting problems with my mix as such, i just suspect that there is a build up of calcium from all the different sources including my tapwater.

[ixnay007]

I have major league hard water, extremely alkaline stuff, using it even after letting it sit for 24 hours I would end up with PH problems towards the end of flowering, after a bit of experimentation I found the best solution wasn't adding acid (as the water has some incredible buffering properties) but to cut it half and half with distilled water from my dehumidifier. I add a little lime to my mixes, but the tap water here requires "cutting", since then, I've got happier plants, as they like cal/mag in the water, just not as much as comes out of the tap.

[Bennyweed1]

Damn I add lime and gypsum to my soil. Issues like this really spook me out and make me stress a little bit. I have a fancy little pH pen I use to check my levels but am often surprised with the results. My tap water is 8.1 usually but after it goes through my RO/DI it not only comes out at 0.0 EC but a prefect pH of 6.3-6.8. It is hard to get a pH reading on such clean water because I think there is no electrical conductivity but once I brew a AACT the pH issue is solved. I have never had a AACT out of the prime zone of 6.5-6.8.

Now I dont know if that is because of the RO/DI filter or just the nature of AACT but the pH after brewing for 24hrs is always perfect.

[StrictlyHerb]

Hey verdantgreen!
I know this is a really old thread by now, but what you are talkin about here is exactly the situation im in!
My tapwater ppm is 140 (american conversion) and has a ph of 8!??

in other areas I've always grown in soil without major problems but here my plants yellow and wilt after 3 weeks of tapwater.
Ever since i bought strong acidic PH down i went over to coco with mineral ferts, and it just breaks my heart as the best ganja is grown from the natural soil.

Soo; how did you manage your alkaline water in soil? what did you do? Do you have a soil recipe to share?

Best regards

[jonhova]

Originally Posted by VerdantGreen

hey scrappy, i have been considering gypsum, but really i probably dont need any extra calcium in my mix as i suspect that i have build up problems that mean i cant really recycle my soil. dolomite at least is adding more in the way of magnesium than calcium.
but as i mentioned earlier in the thread, rock phosphate, high P guano (which is basically fossilized guano and pretty much rock phosphate afaik) and even bonemeal are all liming agents.
what im trying is reducing the liming agents and adding a light dose of manure based ferts to keep the nutrient levels up. i've also used just rainwater during my present grow to see what difference that might make.

its not like im getting problems with my mix as such, i just suspect that there is a build up of calcium from all the different sources including my tapwater.

NECRO BUMP
I have the same problem as the last guy. what did you do to solve your 8.0 PH problems in recycled organic living soil? Are you still using 2 teaspoons per gallon of dolomite lime??

[VortexPower420]

Use citric acid to lower water to your liking.

Do it Everytime, you will not be disappointed.

In the winter my water changes and bicarbonates go up. Citric solves the issue.