[mad librettist]

i dont really believe in no-till for crops and bacterially dominated soil

check out the luebkes.

"no till" is kind of a misnomer, because tilling properly can be very helpful. however care must be taken not create hardpan. once you get to that point you are very much locked into the practice. maybe it should be called "seldom-till"

for an account of no no-till rice and veggie growing, see Fukuoka.

also ask Mr. Fista. he has been converting clay soil using the methods I often suggest.


lastly, if you are exploring no-till and base all your judgements on what happens just after switching you are guaranteed to find a problem with no-till. It takes a long time after tilling for things to get going again. Under a scope looking at bare soil without a coverslip, it's easy to tell no-till from conventional soil. The latter won't normally have microarthropods at all.

[VerdantGreen]

seldom till i can deal with - i grow potatoes in my rotation so my soil has to be dug to harvest them every 3 years which is about right. there is no substitute for the shattering action of frost on lumps of clay. no amount of mulching would have the same effect. it's a physical process.
creating pans etc has to be watched out for but is more of a problem when using mechanical tillers - i do mine by hand

[StRa]

when plants get tapwater rather than rainwater for a few weeks they mostly start to yellow

Could be also the chlorine inside the tap water that increase the yellowing?? I let sit the water for 24 hr before using it and my plants are still yellowing........I was just wondering!!!

and about the differnce between vermiculite and perlite I think we should look at the cationic exchange properties........who's really high for vermiculite!

https://www.aquarticles.com/articles/...ilization.html

Cation Exchange Capacities for various growing media amendments and selected media.
Material/Cation Exchange Capacity meq/100g
Perlite/ 1.5 - 3.5
Silt/ 3.0 - 7.0
Clays/ 22.0 - 63.0
Pine Bark/ 53.0
Vermiculite/ 82.0 - 150.0
Sphagnum Peat/ 100.0 - 180.0
Humus/ 200.0
Peat moss : vermiculite 1:1/ 141.0
Peat moss : sand 1:1/ 8.0
Peat moss : perlite 1:3/ 11.0
Peat moss : perlite 2:1/ 24.0

[VerdantGreen]

hey stra i dont think it's the chlorine - i imagine a lot of it would go when using a sprinkler on the garden and there is a LOT of soil to neutralize it. in the UK they add lime to tapwater to make it 'better for drinking'

the 'party line' with organics is that a well built organic soil will be able to buffer alkaline tapwater and that pH of your water is irrelevant in organics. i have always disagreed with this and defended the use of pH pens to correct these problems. a year or so ago people would get flamed for suggesting the use of pH pens in organic grows - now i think most people accept that sometimes it is useful and necessary.

i think this study pretty definitively shows that the alkalinity of your irrigation water has a big influence on the pH of your soil.

imo its always a mistake to presume that one idea will work equally as well for everyone else as it does for you, or that some method will be the best one to use the world over. i think local conditions and knowledge need to be taken into consideration when deciding which methods to employ/

VG

p.s. i think one major difference between perlite and vermiculite is it's water holding capacity - so you need to consider if your soil mix needs to hold more or less water. i find that adding topsoil greatly increases the water holding capacity of my mix so i use perlite.

but i am trying to come up with a new mix (again ) thinking of reducing the liming agents and perhaps adding 10% aged bark to bring more acidity to the mix. i tried a different mix a while back and it didnt live up to my regular one... but im happy to try again.

VG

[StRa]

Originally Posted by VerdantGreen

the 'party line' with organics is that a well built organic soil will be able to buffer alkaline tapwater and that pH of your water is irrelevant in organics. i have always disagreed with this and defended the use of pH pens to correct these problems. a year or so ago people would get flamed for suggesting the use of pH pens in organic grows - now i think most people accept that sometimes it is useful and necessary

I agree with you VG......and thanks for the knowledge you spread!

[skullznroses]

Originally Posted by VerdantGreen

the 'party line' with organics is that a well built organic soil will be able to buffer alkaline tapwater and that pH of your water is irrelevant in organics. i have always disagreed with this and defended the use of pH pens to correct these problems.
VG

I also disagree, and I've never heard a single intelligent person ever say that the PH of their water doesn't matter. A good soil will help buffer a bad PH water, but I don't think anybody with a brain just ignores PH because the soil is good.

Its like saying "I drive a mercedes, but I run dirty oil, cause it a Benz"

[pinecone]

Originally Posted by skullznroses

I also disagree, and I've never heard a single intelligent person ever say that the PH of their water doesn't matter. A good soil will help buffer a bad PH water, but I don't think anybody with a brain just ignores PH because the soil is good.

After lots of fucking around with a pH pen and citric acid I will say it doesn't matter for me, but my water in the winter is 7.8 and not the 9 or whatever VG's is.

Pine

[VerdantGreen]

hey pine, perhaps your water has low alkalinity for it's pH reading too. the fact you also successfully recycle your soil means it's unlikely there is much build up of calcium in there.

even my rainwater is about 7.8 ! probably because i live in a chalk area and that can affect the pH of the rain. but it takes miniscule amounts of citric acid to reduce the pH - showing that it must have very low alkalinity despite the pH.

VG

[LAMBS-BREAD]

Originally Posted by skullznroses

I also disagree, and I've never heard a single intelligent person ever say that the PH of their water doesn't matter. A good soil will help buffer a bad PH water, but I don't think anybody with a brain just ignores PH because the soil is good.

Its like saying "I drive a mercedes, but I run dirty oil, cause it a Benz"

ph and ppm work together, with a low ppm water, ph won't mater... And to comparing cars and soil/water ph it's a foolish thing to do.

[mad librettist]

Originally Posted by skullznroses

I also disagree, and I've never heard a single intelligent person ever say that the PH of their water doesn't matter. A good soil will help buffer a bad PH water, but I don't think anybody with a brain just ignores PH because the soil is good.

Its like saying "I drive a mercedes, but I run dirty oil, cause it a Benz"

I am both single and intelligent but I will still point out you are confused about pH vs alkalinity.


Its quite obvious we are looking at how water and root medium interact. You can't make a statement about one independent of the other.