HGL Technology 336X & Ultraviolet Surround

PetFlora said:

If you ever write a lighting book, I want dibs on the first one- autographed of course.

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Thanks PF! If I do, I can always make the book dedication out to: 'To my favorite Pet.' I promise that won't go to my head: the missus'll make sure of that!


(I prefer most information to remain freely available, though. Only thing I'm selling is the truth.)

PetFlora said:

I also use 2/8 Wave Point Coral Waves during veg & flower, which covers UVb + a smidgen of IR (740 blip)

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Nice! The CW's already have a good bit in 'em (and covers your 'day lighting' IR), and you're also getting some from the fixture itself, of course:



I think you mean Actinic Blue and a bit of UV-A, though, correct? Didn't think there was much UV-B in there...

PetFlora said:

IR bulb question: Since I am using an 8 bulb T5 with a physical dimension of 2 X 4 (essentially blocking all height above it

1. How would I place a separate IR bulb as I cannot center it, and my bulbs are within 6" of the canopy.

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That...kinda puts a damper on what you can do then, doesn't it? Only options are 1) the sides, and 2) underneath. There's no center stub (well, up top, sure) on that Quantum, just eight separate bays w/reflectors, n'est ce pas?

I'd occasionally run fluoros under my canopy when using HPS (ScrOG); never tried it with IR tubes, though.

If you've got a full canopy and run something underneath (with a lot of watts), esp. 'lights out', it may promote some stretch. Would prefer to get even coverage up top, but you work with what you have...

Also, the conversion between Pfr and Pr (in the absence of visible light) happens fairly quickly; you can get away with using only a few minutes if needed. Will keep stretch to a minimum.

PetFlora said:

2. The smallest IR bulb wattage I've seen is 150 watts. Wouldn't that be too much for a 2 X 4 grow area, even for an hour at lights out?

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Yes.

Don't need more than half that, and preferably, spread out, vs. all coming from one area. But that can still work... (see below)

If that's your only source, you might get away with running it for ~8-10 min.(or less) - if you can avoid cooking your plants at that distance. If you just want some dark reversion, you don't need to run'm for a whole hour.

Want some (better) measure of control? You may want to ditch the IR fluoros (yes, I know) and look at something like these dimmable 'wall washers':

http://www.eshinesystems.com/aqua/aqua-washer-aquarium-light.html

Throw ~730nm in there, take the lenses off (for better spread), and now you've got flexibility. Comes in both 2ft and 4ft lengths.

You could try suspending one right right underneath the center (of your fixture), perhaps, but that's going to cut into the spread of the two tubes on either side, not to mention throwing some heat on the 'washer itself.

But sides and underneath - should be fine. Start the watts small (~150-200mA), and work your way up.

---

Far Red (near IR) light is both reflected by, and significantly passes through, leaves compared to visible light; i.e. you don't need to have it delivered uniformly to the entire plant from all sides in order for it to be effective (though it's preferable, with visible light).

Note that certain experiments have shown that the flowering response for the entire plant can be initiated by inducing the conditions for flowering in only a portion of it (as from covering some of its leaves with a black cloth, causing Pfr to revert from a 'long night'), so there appears to be a mobile protein transcription factor (named Florigen, originating from the FT gene) which transmits this information to the apical meristem.

(Phytochrome is not mobile, so it relies on a signaling factor in order to transmit this information to other parts of the plant which are actively dividing. Pretty cool, eh?)

In other words: enough IR on your plants, can still cause flowering - even if it's not bathing your entire plant with it.

----

I think I may've finally found my (factory-made) T5 replacements, in those wall washers above, also. Some of these w/ red/white on separate channels, perhaps...


(Forget Welthink; dimmable, multi-channel fixtures are the future.)


Cheers,

-SX

Yep UVa not UVb.

The Bad Boy has 4 @ 2 bulb reflectors. The center spine houses the ballasts and wiring. However, the backside of the reflectors is open (and they interlock mechanically, so I might be able to get some small IR bulbs in there, but who makes 25- 50 watt IR bulbs?

I like the Aqua Washers shape. Too bad they didn't provide a footprint shot or price.

Holy Crap. This has value as I can run 615 &/or 660 HO T5s + http://www.eshinesystems.com/aqua/aqua-master-aquarium-light.html

Wish I had purchased 2 @ 4 bulb HO T5 fixtures. That would allow me to drop something like AWs in between. But that's how it goes when learning on the fly. All things considered much less of a buying mistake than my 3 yo UFO 90 that I paid $360. Doh! Still I use it to veg/clone + supplement with various cfls + a 23 watt Reptile Repti-Glo

Oh and WelThink has a new model coming soon. It's said to be a design rethink, probably more a modification as the design is good, the bulbs need some rethinking but knna contacted them.

And an e-book can be FREE!

sx646522 said:

I've always looked at Phae's garden as being more of a Grand Science Experiment than anything else. I'm sure he could run efficient yield #'s if he wanted to - but as long as both he and his caregiver patients are happy with the quality, that's the most important thing, right Phaeton?

I'm a bit of an efficiency hound myself, but there are other measurements of 'success', to be sure - same reason people run Sub-cool's 'Super-soil' mix. All those lovely anthocyanins help to produce a nice connoisseur bud, if not necessarily high-volume.
......

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hi sx, i wouldnt say it was a yield efficiency issue with the UV tubes - just that if you are experimenting with UV then you want the leaves to be 'absorbing' the UV reasonably efficiently to draw any conclusions from the results and the amount of UV used - and if the leaves are best angled to catch the overhead LED light then they are going to be at pretty much their worst angle to catch UV coming from the side, which is why i asked the question.
the other thing i personally was wary of when using UV with these LED fixtures is the possible damage the UV light might do to the optical perspex used in the X lens. i used some UV T5s in my cab for a few grows and they were enough to cause some damage to the plant tissue but i cant say i saw a noticeable increase in potency. for now ive taken the UV tubes out of my cab and i want to re-introduce them so that the plants get some UV in late veg, which ive heard is a good way to maximise the potency effects... although it seems the jury is still out somewhat on the benefits of UV on potency.
i wonder if the increase in potency is from UV is caused by a gene 'trigger' (epigenetic effect) or if its just an environmental growth response, or both?
VG

SX646522
RE: Post 81

You wrote:

If that's your only source, you might get away with running it for ~8-10 min.(or less) - if you can avoid cooking your plants at that distance. If you just want some dark reversion, you don't need to run'm for a whole hour.

Want some (better) measure of control? You may want to ditch the IR fluoros (yes, I know) and look at something like these dimmable 'wall washers':

http://www.eshinesystems.com/aqua/aq...ium-light.html

Throw ~730nm in there, take the lenses off (for better spread), and now you've got flexibility. Comes in both 2ft and 4ft lengths.

You could try suspending one right right underneath the center (of your fixture), perhaps, but that's going to cut into the spread of the two tubes on either side, not to mention throwing some heat on the 'washer itself.

But sides and underneath - should be fine. Start the watts small (~150-200mA), and work your way up.

---

Far Red (near IR) light is both reflected by, and significantly passes through, leaves compared to visible light; i.e. you don't need to have it delivered uniformly to the entire plant from all sides in order for it to be effective (though it's preferable, with visible light).

Note that certain experiments have shown that the flowering response for the entire plant can be initiated by inducing the conditions for flowering in only a portion of it (as from covering some of its leaves with a black cloth, causing Pfr to revert from a 'long night'), so there appears to be a mobile protein transcription factor (named Florigen, originating from the FT gene) which transmits this information to the apical meristem.

(Phytochrome is not mobile, so it relies on a signaling factor in order to transmit this information to other parts of the plant which are actively dividing. Pretty cool, eh?)

In other words: enough IR on your plants, can still cause flowering - even if it's not bathing your entire plant with it.

----

I think I may've finally found my (factory-made) T5 replacements, in those wall washers above, also. Some of these w/ red/white on separate channels, perhaps...

I just reread this. Making more sense now. It occurred to me that my BB has no back plate and the reflectors can be unscrewed and taken out. Each reflector is for 2 bulbs- just about right to take one reflector/2 bulbs out and drop in an eshine WW. Now you also mentioned dropping in a 730? Will they custom configure or did you have something else in mind?

VerdantGreen said:

hi sx, i wouldnt say it was a yield efficiency issue with the UV tubes - just that if you are experimenting with UV then you want the leaves to be 'absorbing' the UV reasonably efficiently to draw any conclusions from the results and the amount of UV used - and if the leaves are best angled to catch the overhead LED light then they are going to be at pretty much their worst angle to catch UV coming from the side, which is why i asked the question.

Click to expand...

Makes sense. A person facing the sun from the edge only burns on one side, too. Not great if you want an all-over tan.

VerdantGreen said:

the other thing i personally was wary of when using UV with these LED fixtures is the possible damage the UV light might do to the optical perspex used in the X lens. i used some UV T5s in my cab for a few grows and they were enough to cause some damage to the plant tissue but i cant say i saw a noticeable increase in potency. for now ive taken the UV tubes out of my cab and i want to re-introduce them so that the plants get some UV in late veg, which ive heard is a good way to maximise the potency effects... although it seems the jury is still out somewhat on the benefits of UV on potency.

Click to expand...

True, PMMA can degrade with prolonged (and direct) exposure to UV. Primary lenses made of glass don't have that problem.

I agree; until I've run separate rooms using several different kinds of clones (in statistically significant quantities) across the entire indica-sativa spectrum at different intensities myself, I'm not going to draw any general conclusions, either. The potential for degrading trichomes; sure. Increased potency response that is predictable and consistent between different phenotypes and strains? Not quite.

Hopefully as more countries move MMJ into a lower Schedule, we'll start to get real, verifiable, repeatable, research-grade laboratory and medical experiments that expand our true knowledge base. Too much conjecture and anecdotal evidence still at this point.

PetFlora said:

I just reread this. Making more sense now. It occurred to me that my BB has no back plate and the reflectors can be unscrewed and taken out. Each reflector is for 2 bulbs- just about right to take one reflector/2 bulbs out and drop in an eshine WW. Now you also mentioned dropping in a 730? Will they custom configure or did you have something else in mind?

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Neat!

Hmmm, that may depend on the size you're using, PF. The T5's are ~45.236" long at the jacket, and ~45.795" pin-to-pin. The larger, 1200mm 'Aqua Washer' is ~47.244", which makes it longer than your fixture. If anything, you might have to suspend one just below it, don't think it'll fit exactly where the old tubes were. At least the fixture itself will help support it...

Two 600mm units might work with a small overlap area side-to-side - if you're trying to hang 'em exactly at the same height as your tubes, that is.

I think they'll substitute IR LEDs in there for you, though you might have to get the right rep for that. Maybe oneshot can give you the contact info for the guy he's been dealing with. I've thought about picking up a couple of those myself for projects, once I have the room for it.


Cheers,

-SX

I'm thinking a couple 2ft Wall Washers to use as side lighting. What would be a good diode blend for plants ~ 20" tall at the flip?

This is a link in EVO LEDs email today. Here it is in English. http://gudomeledgrow.info/blog/en/2012/05/avance-evo-v4-starline-1a-parte/

Here's a taste

Motherboard bulbs
For the motherboard, choose the best board for LED which is available on the world market. Sinkpad ® ( http://www.sinkpad.com/ ) is a U.S. manufacturer specializing in printed circuit boards for LED technology, used to manufacture a proprietary design makes the temperature to dissipate with ease, normal in PCB used so far is that between 1 and 4W/MK dissipate and dissipate Sinkpad plates 135 to 180W/MK This allows us to use the LED at higher current intensity getting superior performance while retaining the reliability and exceptional performance of the Evoled lamps.


http://www.osram-os.com/osram_os/EN...ducts/OSLON-SSL-80-adds-a-touch-of-color.html

sx646522 said:

Thanks PF! If I do, I can always make the book dedication out to: 'To my favorite Pet.' I promise that won't go to my head: the missus'll make sure of that!


(I prefer most information to remain freely available, though. Only thing I'm selling is the truth.)



Nice! The CW's already have a good bit in 'em (and covers your 'day lighting' IR), and you're also getting some from the fixture itself, of course:

View Image

I think you mean Actinic Blue and a bit of UV-A, though, correct? Didn't think there was much UV-B in there...



That...kinda puts a damper on what you can do then, doesn't it? Only options are 1) the sides, and 2) underneath. There's no center stub (well, up top, sure) on that Quantum, just eight separate bays w/reflectors, n'est ce pas?

I'd occasionally run fluoros under my canopy when using HPS (ScrOG); never tried it with IR tubes, though.

If you've got a full canopy and run something underneath (with a lot of watts), esp. 'lights out', it may promote some stretch. Would prefer to get even coverage up top, but you work with what you have...

Also, the conversion between Pfr and Pr (in the absence of visible light) happens fairly quickly; you can get away with using only a few minutes if needed. Will keep stretch to a minimum.



Yes.

Don't need more than half that, and preferably, spread out, vs. all coming from one area. But that can still work... (see below)

If that's your only source, you might get away with running it for ~8-10 min.(or less) - if you can avoid cooking your plants at that distance. If you just want some dark reversion, you don't need to run'm for a whole hour.

Want some (better) measure of control? You may want to ditch the IR fluoros (yes, I know) and look at something like these dimmable 'wall washers':

http://www.eshinesystems.com/aqua/aqua-washer-aquarium-light.html

Throw ~730nm in there, take the lenses off (for better spread), and now you've got flexibility. Comes in both 2ft and 4ft lengths.

You could try suspending one right right underneath the center (of your fixture), perhaps, but that's going to cut into the spread of the two tubes on either side, not to mention throwing some heat on the 'washer itself.

But sides and underneath - should be fine. Start the watts small (~150-200mA), and work your way up.

---

Far Red (near IR) light is both reflected by, and significantly passes through, leaves compared to visible light; i.e. you don't need to have it delivered uniformly to the entire plant from all sides in order for it to be effective (though it's preferable, with visible light).

Note that certain experiments have shown that the flowering response for the entire plant can be initiated by inducing the conditions for flowering in only a portion of it (as from covering some of its leaves with a black cloth, causing Pfr to revert from a 'long night'), so there appears to be a mobile protein transcription factor (named Florigen, originating from the FT gene) which transmits this information to the apical meristem.

(Phytochrome is not mobile, so it relies on a signaling factor in order to transmit this information to other parts of the plant which are actively dividing. Pretty cool, eh?)

In other words: enough IR on your plants, can still cause flowering - even if it's not bathing your entire plant with it.

----

I think I may've finally found my (factory-made) T5 replacements, in those wall washers above, also. Some of these w/ red/white on separate channels, perhaps...


(Forget Welthink; dimmable, multi-channel fixtures are the future.)


Cheers,

-SX

Click to expand...

OK I got it. Single IR bulb on a light mover. Oh yeah!

Damn why did I get an 8 bulb fixture?

PetFlora said:

I'm thinking a couple 2ft Wall Washers to use as side lighting. What would be a good diode blend for plants ~ 20" tall at the flip?

Click to expand...

Well, as Pink Floyd would say: Any Colour You Like!

(Some great VCS3 keyboard work by Richard Wright on that, by the way...esp. if you're in the right 'frame of mind'. Didn't hurt that Alan Parsons did the engineering, either. These days, Alan looks more like a hippie version of Nigel Terry, Excalibur-era.)

Since the 'washers support two channels and can be individually dimmed, you might try running either a cool/neutral white, and some reds. That'd give you plenty of options during all stages of growth. Just dim what you're not using.

---

Hey, did you ever get oneshot's contact info at e.shine? I think who you talk to may have an impact on the level of service you get. Just the way it is, sometimes...

I spent several years living and working in Asia, so speaking to folks using a translator/via broken English doesn't particularly bother me. Shouldn't stop folks from getting a deal by going direct, at the very least.

Persistence usually pays off in the end, with whatever it is one's doing. That's how I met the missus.

PetFlora said:

This is a link in EVO LEDs email today. Here it is in English.

Click to expand...

Thanks for posting this for peeps. Are you subscribed via email on his blog, or do you have other 'sources' for info we don't know about? Spill the beans, partner!

I was looking at the Sinkpads awhile back; I'm glad they've decided to use 'em in theirs. Much more efficient at dispersing heat than your typical Bergquist (MCPCB) using thermal vias, it appears. Any additional bottleneck one can remove from the junction to the heatsink is a good thing. May have to call and see what they charge for custom work...

Might be good if they used graphite pads rather than thermal paste/grease, too.

PetFlora said:

OK I got it. Single IR bulb on a light mover. Oh yeah!

Damn why did I get an 8 bulb fixture?

Click to expand...

Say, that's an idea!

No worries, the Quantum's still a good unit - the proof is in the results.

I do like flexibility, too - especially in pretty female Yoga instructors!

Now, I just have to find out if Sara Underwood makes house calls...

-SX

Whoa, it has been a little while. The cancer sent relatives south, now it is an extended family from the right lung through the liver and into the colon.New med program affects the time I spend at the keyboard as well as the grow room. I swiitched to lower maintenance plants also. Keeping busy is still the best distraction.

The new plants use more blue than the old ones, and the room always has been short on red in the high 700's.
All eight of the T5 fixtures are the pictured configuration, those coral waves replaced flora suns, cutting middle reds and upping the blue and far red. The eight T8 fixtures all just alternate Reptisun 10/Florasun

Also pictured is the new plant, it will be used for making tea. It requires almost zero maintenance, not even watering during it's podding stage.

And a picture of the mixed room.
The sativa and poppy use identical lighting, indica doesn't seem to like the extra blue, never did.

The colon cancer is distracting to where I cannot ignore it, liver and lung are a piece of cake.
But indoor poppy will not even supply myself, it is done for the really easy busywork it requires. Light water every third day with reduced nutes. Yeah, I can do that.

But not appropriate for this forum. I will check in when I can, still stuff to learn, but the contribution's will be down.
:kitty:

wow Phaeton, sorry to hear about the cancer spreading...

my thoughts, prayers and hopes go out to you bud... best of luck in your fight brother...

Phaeton, sorry to hear about your advancing health problems. I hope that you continue posting when you feel well enough - there are a bunch of us on here that enjoy hearing (and seeing) about what you are doing. Take care.

Dear Phaeton,

I hope that your health turns around and that your courage stays strong.

I get a lot out of your posts here .

First, thank you for the thoughts.

Being autistic I find the cancers interesting, except the distraction from the colon. And I have been 'anal' all my life so big deal. Humor doesn't hurt either.

Now to be myself, the UVB is in the surround instead of between the LED's because in nature UVB is scattered with the blue in the sky, we just don't see it.

When exposed to UVB marijuana extrudes a protective film on the bottom of the leaves only. In open fields this bottom only protection eliminates 50% of the UVB damage without interfering with sun-only wavelengths feeding the chlorophyl.

Indoors, UVB from the side creates the desired plant protective reaction without doing continual damage to main chlorophyl receptors that remain uncovered.

I'm so far north when the UVB meter is pointed dirctly at the sun it reads 60, pointing 90 degrees away from the sun gives a 38. This ratio agrees with the studies I read before building. But being anal I did six various level UVB grows in the testroom also. I used what worked best from the tests.

I usually do not talk dollars as it is not good form, but for comparison purposes the operation runs 8600 watts and the cost was $2.38 per watt average. Yes.
Commercial yield is .4 gpw. I say 'yes' again because some may think their math is incorrect. Their math is correct. The remainder is processed into extract, non-commercial for a smokeless group.

Alaska does not have a dispensary system. Medical MJ is what is available on the street. Unless you know me, I am afraid of the street. Only two strains but the price is right. A visit from a gang rep objecting to my pricing and wishing a franchise should have been even scarier.

We are a military town, a lot of stress happens in the military and this is a nice place to work things out, lots and lots of room.
Nothing against gangs, and I am sure city gangs are tough dudes and all. But the locals? After trying to screw with the meds of soldiers?men stressed from too much mindless violence on an international level? The gang never again even let me know they existed.

13 years growing in the same location, now I have time to reflect.

Once a 7'11" plant grew inside, the pot added almost 2' more. That was when the ceiling got removed and I got a personal best 32 gram bud.

A pair of 357 Magnum+ LED's ordered two days ago are due tomorrow, 700 watts and a switch for red and blue. Today I collapsed trying to water. "Stick to red for budding" is this the message the lord is sending?
My daughter is coming by three times a day to finish the current events. I have a spot for the lights, but need an apprentice yesterday.

I should actually have more time for pics and posting, nice 4' sativa coming up on 5 weeks. Overveg, but the ceiling will allow up to 5', gonna be close, should be a personal best bud under LED. Pictures I can take.

I finished a grow thread, the bucket list is shorter.

phaeton, thanks for the explanation on the side-lighting for UV, very interesting. - i had a feeling you would have a good reason for it

next week i'm going to re-introduce some UV into my cab and that's good food for thought.

all the best

VG

looking forward to the pics

Northern Lights and bag sativa.

The NL did not get cloned, last one is in the picture. I had traced this plant back to 1997 when Bart aquired it from an established grower no longer in the area.
Hate to let it go.

Two more trays of sativa just put to bud, no clones from them either. Hermaphrodite bag seed, but really clean high.

And almost a first, the LED's got turned off for the pictures.

The NL was put to bud on 04-12-12 and the sativa on 04-14-12, today is 05-19-12 so just a little more plumping to go.

Took out the 4K sunpulse and put in a 4K retro white, even now I cannot decide.

I do not know if you already tried it or not, but cumin or tumeric has shown some anti cancer effects. 1 tsp per day. Thanks for keeping this journal going, lots to learn here.

The room looks funny, three plants and 5904 watts. Sure is comfy to walk around in. The indica yielded nine ounces with almost three leafy oz left for extract.
The sativa is waiting for nanners to pop, it always does so a top bud got cut off and a likely nanner spot has been isolated, just a guess, but five days and nothing. Usually show in four.

Pics when it pops. Got a pair of 357 Mgnum Plus's for the veg table. Originally for the center of the bud room to replace the retro white.
The advertised beam was 60-90 degrees. Angled at 40 they should have put a nice bluish spread across the inner canopy.
It is all in how it is measured, the HGL's are angled 30 degrees and the edge of the beam follows the face of the surround perfectly. Plants can go 1" to the tubes and still get LED light.

No way with the magnum's, the foot print is the same size as the unit itself, the beam is parallel to the surround without angling the LED.
Using them anyway, pretty concentrated light being that tight.

Here they are, still going to do pics of the overcooked sativa soon as the nanner's get their bunch together.

Good things come to he who waits. A papya I have been wanting for over a year finally had a new clone take root from the spider infected rootbound clone rescued from a bad situation.

I angled the new LED's around a paired CMH set and have 1500 driven watts over a 2' X 4' table for veg plants. The surround is going up one piece at a time. There are some long day plants budding in the same room, 18/6 is the cycle.
These 357 Magnums have 30% blue compared to the HGL's 10%. Tighter beam also, this works on a small veg table better than the HGL. The HGL could not be replaced by twice their number in the budroom. I don't use just one brand of HID or fluorescent either.

That papaya comes from a plant named "lemonfresh", is that also a strain name? The last picture is under CFL, just for the color rendition, LED sucks as bad as HPS at camera work.