Homemade bubble cloner to soil=clones wilting!

Holmes Slice · Jan 3, 2012

All, I just built a DIY bubble cloner. Used to use rockwool but it takes 2 weeks for me to develop roots in those.

For kicks, I built a DIY bubble cloner. I now get roots in about a week!

Only problem is, the moment I transplant them to soil they wilt and I've lost a few clones.

What am I doing something wrong? Are bubble cloners and organic grows mutually exclusive?

rollinmachine · Jan 3, 2012

many factors play into the clones wilting. going from the bubble cloner to soil is not 1 of them if the roots are healthy. the wilting is most likly due to the soil u are using and how "hot" it is and/or the nutrients in the soil are to strong for young plants. or u could be drowning them when u transplant them... without pics theres really no precise answer to ur question only opinions that people are guessing at because they cant see whats goin on with their own eyes. snap a few pics unless u want bad advice that has nothing to do with what the problem realy is.

MagicChef · Jan 3, 2012

Did your lighting intensity change from your cloner to the soil? I cant say I've used a bubble cloner before but have made the mistake of putting them under too intense of light right away. Too much light in my experience will make clones wilt.

Cartel530 · Jan 4, 2012

add waaaaaay more perlite to your soil. they are use to more oxygen so when you pack the soil in the roots they arent use to it and die. i use to have this problem a lot. now i add 50% more perlite to some happy frog and its never been a problem since.

TokerAce · Jan 4, 2012

I dont use a bubble cloner but use an ezcloner! I always make sure medium is soaked with the water out of my cloner! the right temp and its what they are used to soooo!! bsafe

señorsloth · Jan 4, 2012

I would say don't worry about it too much, its natural for wilting to occur during transplant, just make sure the soil you are planting into is nice and wet. the more gentle you are with the roots, and the less movement they undergo, the less they will wilt...

add waaaaaay more perlite to your soil. they are use to more oxygen so when you pack the soil in the roots they arent use to it and die. i use to have this problem a lot. now i add 50% more perlite to some happy frog and its never been a problem since.

hahahahaha! so wrong, i'm sorry but soil has a lot more oxygen in it than the water the roots were submerged in during cloning.

happy frog is a premixed potting soil, it already has the optimal ratios of ingredients to hold and drain water, nutrients, and oxygen, adding extra perlite doesn't increase oxygen to the benefit of the plant, because the soil already holds all the oxygen your plants can use(unless you keep it saturated 100% of the time). what it actually ends up doing is displacing nutrients and water...the soil drains faster, because by adding pearlite to soil that doesn't need it you are doing the same thing as putting the plant into a smaller pot(meaning watering more often, ph fluctuates more, nutrients levels swing more). adding perlite to premixed potting soils is pointless...a habit from the 70's when soil didn't come premixed and adding perlite was a necessity. btw this all comes from a reputable seed breeder, i don't just make it up, lol

yortbogey · Jan 4, 2012

put a dome or a clear cover over each transplant..... keeps there humidity and moisture up....until the clone can stabilize over to dirt and less water......

ThePizzaMan · Jan 4, 2012

If they are young, than you may be running "hot"..to much nutes in the soil. You said you are organic...so I am not sure if this is playing a role in the wilting...my first guess would probably that they are not watered enough. A slight shock is going to happen and last for up to 24-48 hours...but you should see a turnaround after that.

Make sure your soil isn't killing them..and make sure it is watered..I mean wet. I use coco..and I find I get wilting immediately..if the coco is not moist enough for the new cutting.

Let us know!

Holmes Slice · Jan 4, 2012

Thanks all for your replies. The lights are the same, just a few 23W CFLs. The mix could possibly be a bit hot, but what I am looking at is more like dry/wet wilt. It happens within a few hours of placing the rooted clones in the mix. I tried prewetting the soil and gently placing the clones; I also tried a wet then draining the soil with just enough water for rooting. Both, same experience. It almost feels like the clones are used to alot of water in the cloner and when they go to the mix they are not happy. My bubbles run 24/7; I've heard of people running these on timers...Any thoughts on this?

Here's a pic to show what I was talking about. Three clones, left to right:
1. Healthy transplant that overcame the wilt, see how strong and green it is?
2. One that didn't make it. Had a few nice roots, just wilted when it hit the soil and never recovered.
3. Old one with rockwool--The reason I made the bubble cloner. After two weeks in the rockwool, the clones go through hell. Sure they root, but they take weeks to recover and gain full strength again.

Bunz · Jan 4, 2012

Put a plastic baggie over the plants for a few days after transplant. First day use the entire baggie. Second day cut a hole in the top of the baggie. Day three cut a bigger hole in the baggie. By day four your plants should be accustomed to the environment, so you should be able to completely remove the baggie.

Bunz

foomar · Jan 4, 2012

Only problem is, the moment I transplant them to soil they wilt and I've lost a few clones.

If you normally use a dome over the bubbler , could try running without it.

If the water temp is correct the air humidity seems to be much less important , with a dome i lost the odd one as you describe despite haveing a good flush of roots when planted , and lost the whole lot to mould several times.

Currently low fifties air temp and 30% RH , rooting fine with water at 75 f or so despite quite dry air.

Subjectively , clones rooted under the dome tended to stall for a little longer when planted up than those without , noticed when i ran two identical bubblers and one had no cover.

Would suggest the only mainstream plant that really needs a dome is peppers , everything else has done as well without and no more mould.

At what stage do you consider a clone ready to pot up ?

Some locals pot as soon as white lumps appear and others wait till its climbing out the bubbler , i go with a couple of inches of root from three or more sites , most oblige in seven days for a weekly ritual.

aligee · Jan 4, 2012

i go from aerocloner to small party cup hempys using 5 parts perlite to 1 part vermiculite no wilt period and explosive root growth i water as needed !!good luck !!!

Hydro-Soil · Jan 4, 2012

aligee said:
i go from aerocloner to small party cup hempys using 5 parts perlite to 1 part vermiculite no wilt period and explosive root growth i water as needed !!good luck !!!

I've also seen this work extremely well.

- Keep lighting, temps, humidity the same.
- Make sure when going to soil that you have at least 2 roots 2-3" long.
- Use a neutral or low-nutrient rich soil
- Make sure you transplant in to moist (not sloppy wet) soil.
- No roots should be contacting other roots, just soil.

------ Don't water until the soil is almost dry!

Stay Safe! :tiphat:

Leroy Brown · Jan 5, 2012

Hydro-Soil said:
I've also seen this work extremely well.

- Keep lighting, temps, humidity the same.
- Make sure when going to soil that you have at least 2 roots 2-3" long.
- Use a neutral or low-nutrient rich soil
- Make sure you transplant in to moist (not sloppy wet) soil.
- No roots should be contacting other roots, just soil.

------ Don't water until the soil is almost dry!

Stay Safe!

Solid username to post correlation.

Holmes Slice · Jan 5, 2012

foomar said:
If you normally use a dome over the bubbler, could try running without it.

Interesting...I wondered why most instructions tell you to use the dome for the first 48 hours. That had been my practice, but they remained dome-less after that. I will try 100% no dome and see how that works.

aligee said:
i go from aerocloner to small party cup hempys using 5 parts perlite to 1 part vermiculite no wilt period and explosive root growth i water as needed !!good luck !!!

Are you a soil grower? Curious how you would then transplant this to soil? So just 5:1 ratio of perlite to vermiculite and the roots go nuts? How long until you go to soil? Please tell me more!

Hydro-Soil said:
- Keep lighting, temps, humidity the same.
- Make sure when going to soil that you have at least 2 roots 2-3" long.
- Use a neutral or low-nutrient rich soil
- Make sure you transplant in to moist (not sloppy wet) soil.
- No roots should be contacting other roots, just soil.

------ Don't water until the soil is almost dry!

This all sounds like very sound advice. Much rep your way for the feedback! I was transplanting when I had one or two roots an inch long. Maybe I need to wait until I have more roots?

foomar · Jan 5, 2012

Hi Holmes , if you only use the dome at the start it probably wont make any difference , have better results open all the way than domed , by the time they get to flowering they are so similar you cant tell the slow starters apart anyway.

With this level of root development they still stall sometimes for no apparent reason.

aligee · Jan 5, 2012

Are you a soil grower? Curious how you would then transplant this to soil? So just 5:1 ratio of perlite to vermiculite and the roots go nuts? How long until you go to soil? Please tell me more!

i grow in coco but have recently been switching over to perlite /vermiculite i use clear cups and the root growth is visable i transplant when there 7-10" or so you can transplant straight to soil no problem or gently rinse off medium then transplant!!!piece of cake !!!

Holmes Slice · Jan 5, 2012

foomar said:
With this level of root development they still stall sometimes for no apparent reason.

That pic is crazy! Are you using hormones to get them like that? What's your secret?

I am also trying to figure out the 'why' of the wilting/turgidity loss. To me, it seems like it's water related? The plants look like they do if I forgot to water and are about to die and seemingly snap back when they are ready--though a few didn't apparently.

I thought I was too rough on the first few, but I was super gentle on the last ones and still lost one. Will definitely wait for more roots the next time.

Still better than the Grodan blocks, I am pretty sure that I am done with those for good:
-Expensive
-Pain in the butt to ph balance
-Slowest rooting time of ANY media I've used.

As I never really described the alleged setup, figured I'd post some pics here.

Basically a dollar store shoebox set painted black with plastic paint. Holes drilled every few inches. Two airstones powered by a high end dual output aquarium pump and heated by a compact aquarium heater. Didn't have any money or time for fancy plugs/neoprene so bought a few feet of 1/2 vinyl tubing from Home Depot, cut it into 1.5" lengths and slit the edge to be able to remove the clones later. Was sure to keep them about 1" above the water surface.

Temp holds pretty good at around 88/89 deg F. Just tap water only, nothing special so far. Been seeing roots reliably at day 7-10. Just the wilting is driving me nuts.

Mr Eckted · Jan 5, 2012

We switched to an EZCloner, and it's way easier than rockwool. I would say don't use the dome, make sure you've got decent air in your medium, and be careful that you aren't putting them under too much light right away.

Have you thought about going with dwc instead of soil? Seamless transition that way.

foomar · Jan 5, 2012

Basic home brewed bubbler sat on the base from a heated propagator , quite steady around 78 f but the air temp varies wildly , 40 to 85 every day as unheated in the dark , these are under 12/12 lighting from a 23w cfl , most cuts are taken well into flower and moved to veg once potted.

Just clean collected rainwater , have tried every mainstream and some downright silly additives over the years with nothing really gained.

Clone cut at 45 deg through a node or as a torn off heal cutting , stem punched in with blade tip or pinwheel if larger , dry rooting powder rubbed into the resultant holes , reliable as clockwork in seven days apart from the usual suspects.

Thinking about it , some that stalled may have only had a few , but long , roots that may have been damaged despite carefull planting , the stall may have been whilst the remaining root bumps caught up.

The deliberate controlled damage produces more rooting sites by observation but you risk rapid total loss if temps go too high and moulds take over , 78 ish is as high as i go and i only clone/pot once a week so not worth it for me.

Adding a trace of bleach , running low 80,s under 20/4 light cycle and trimming each one to just have its tip in the actual bubbles , can do good roots in four days but not worth the stress.

Homemade bubble cloner to soil=clones wilting!

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