LED Mythbusting, KILL A WATT proof - Page 5 - LED Grow Lights - International Cannagraphic Magazine Forums

T_B_M · 03-23-2012, 03:34 PM

Kill-A-Watts tell what the light is drawing in total. This does not account for losses in AC-DC conversion and fans, which isn't a whole lot. Power draw from the wall determines operating power of the LEDs. When they advertise their light is 300W, but only driven at half power, its actually 150W.

LED types/brands do matter also since cheap Chinese LEDs will take more power to emit the same light as Cree and other high quality emitters that will output the same amount of light with less power. For instance, the new Cree XTE royal blue LED is forging the new standard of higher efficiency due to its lower Vf and more output power at the same current at the XPE. It also has a more uniform light distribution over the viewing angle. I hope they have other colors coming in the XTE series. I'm waiting to build more for this series to expand.

I wouldn't use a commercial lamp other than ones proven to use top emitters and rate their power draw appropriately. Most just rate the light on LED maximum power, not actual driven power to trick unknowing consumers. Too bad there are a lot of shady people out there trying to make a quick buck rather than a great product.

Great thread, gives people a heads up on who is just trying to make a quick buck vs. making a decent product. Although most won't jump intot he LED world until it can compete with HPS in price. They are becoming more efficient and running cooler, so that is one advantage. I wouldn't expect a commercial lamp to run as cool as a DIY light with top quality emitters though since they load the case with fans, I'm betting there are hot spots on the heat sink due to the tightly packed array on a thin heat sink to save costs.

GP73LPC · 03-23-2012, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PetFlora

Came across this video. Check out the computer controlled live PAR meter readings.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAw13...eature=related

thanks for the clip...

magiccannabus · 03-28-2012, 07:30 AM

I really would like to have seen them compare the Philips Mastercolor Retro White CMH lamps. The SPD on them is far better than either MH or HPS.

LED clearly is advancing, but it's obvious that the technology is still rough. Hell, even digital HID ballasts are still not ironed out completely and now we have a new technology gaining a foothold. Meanwhile, guys like me who are scientific enough to understand the ideas involved, but not interested enough to learn a college-degree's worth of knowledge about LEDs are left not wanting to risk money on LED. If I buy my own, they're absurdly expensive, and if I build my own, it's tedious work and tons of knowledge required. There's really no good excuse for the price of LED systems either. They contain so much less actual material than HID systems. The power drivers are more complicated, but they're usually electronic and thus also should be cheaper.

I always hear "in a few years, everyone will be using LED to grow". At the rate things are developing, maybe in 5 years that will be true, but not until the price goes way down, they get full UL listing, and the consistency goes way up.

GP73LPC · 03-28-2012, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by magiccannabus

I really would like to have seen them compare the Philips Mastercolor Retro White CMH lamps. The SPD on them is far better than either MH or HPS.

LED clearly is advancing, but it's obvious that the technology is still rough. Hell, even digital HID ballasts are still not ironed out completely and now we have a new technology gaining a foothold. Meanwhile, guys like me who are scientific enough to understand the ideas involved, but not interested enough to learn a college-degree's worth of knowledge about LEDs are left not wanting to risk money on LED. If I buy my own, they're absurdly expensive, and if I build my own, it's tedious work and tons of knowledge required. There's really no good excuse for the price of LED systems either. They contain so much less actual material than HID systems. The power drivers are more complicated, but they're usually electronic and thus also should be cheaper.

I always hear "in a few years, everyone will be using LED to grow". At the rate things are developing, maybe in 5 years that will be true, but not until the price goes way down, they get full UL listing, and the consistency goes way up.

they are pretty much just as expensive to build your own. these things aren't cheap, the parts cost add up...

take a look at this thread for an idea of what LED's are doing and have been doing for the last couple years... all of the guys listed in the thread consistently yield over a pound at harvest.

post:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.ph...0&postcount=35

thread:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=221520

and then there is this thread with a table right up front that shows what kind of grams per watt people are getting and have been getting for several years...

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=211911

led technology is here and is alive and well... expensive yes, productive yes...

magiccannabus · 03-28-2012, 08:09 PM

Thanks for the reply. I see that the LEDs do work. I know they are technically here, but they are still very confusing to the newbies. There's a lot of scams, and from what I am reading, very few commercial units have the quality of power supply that they should have. It's just a whirlwind of new tech, wild price ranges, wild claims, and outright conflicting first-hand accounts. Habeeb had a light that is top quality, and he still had a 30% output drop on one end of his lights. There's just a lot being ironed out. I believe LED is the future, I believe it can even be the now for those who can sort it all out, but we're far from the simplicity of HID purchasing.

yoss33 · 03-28-2012, 08:47 PM

I believe it will all settle down when LEDs become so cheap that the big players in lighting (Philips, Osram, etc.) bring real solutions in big numbers for the masses. Quality and ease of use will definitely increase. Now LED lighting in the range of hundreds of watts is a small specialized niche.
But LED emiters (many diodes packed together) in the range of 50-100W, cheaper than $1/W are already readily available, so I guess the big companies are very soon to enter the game and offer even cheaper and complete substitutions of HPS and MH.

analogue · 04-13-2012, 07:10 PM

Kessil 350, Magenta

73 watts, initial
71 watts after 30 minutes

analogue · 04-13-2012, 07:10 PM

Kessil 350, Magenta

73 watts, initial
71 watts after 30 minutes

GP73LPC · 04-14-2012, 08:19 AM

thnks man

GP73LPC · 04-20-2012, 07:04 PM

in the comments just below video, california lightworks solarflare 200, is really 165 watts...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSzwpBO_Rr0

Phychotron · 04-22-2012, 06:44 AM

Blackstar 500

Blackstar 240, first one

Blackstar 240, ordered a few months later but has detachable cord and pulls more wattage.

Advanced LED 400w Diamond series

Advanced LED 180w Extreme Flower.

I'm done with blackstar because of their wattage confusion. I'm getting good results from the diamond series from Advanced LED.

03-23-2012, 03:34 PM	#41
T_B_M Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 122	Kill-A-Watts tell what the light is drawing in total. This does not account for losses in AC-DC conversion and fans, which isn't a whole lot. Power draw from the wall determines operating power of the LEDs. When they advertise their light is 300W, but only driven at half power, its actually 150W. LED types/brands do matter also since cheap Chinese LEDs will take more power to emit the same light as Cree and other high quality emitters that will output the same amount of light with less power. For instance, the new Cree XTE royal blue LED is forging the new standard of higher efficiency due to its lower Vf and more output power at the same current at the XPE. It also has a more uniform light distribution over the viewing angle. I hope they have other colors coming in the XTE series. I'm waiting to build more for this series to expand. I wouldn't use a commercial lamp other than ones proven to use top emitters and rate their power draw appropriately. Most just rate the light on LED maximum power, not actual driven power to trick unknowing consumers. Too bad there are a lot of shady people out there trying to make a quick buck rather than a great product. Great thread, gives people a heads up on who is just trying to make a quick buck vs. making a decent product. Although most won't jump intot he LED world until it can compete with HPS in price. They are becoming more efficient and running cooler, so that is one advantage. I wouldn't expect a commercial lamp to run as cool as a DIY light with top quality emitters though since they load the case with fans, I'm betting there are hot spots on the heat sink due to the tightly packed array on a thin heat sink to save costs.
	Quote 1 members found this post helpful.

03-28-2012, 07:30 AM	#43
magiccannabus Next Stop: Outer Space! Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Between the Mississippi and the Missouri Posts: 1,990	I really would like to have seen them compare the Philips Mastercolor Retro White CMH lamps. The SPD on them is far better than either MH or HPS. LED clearly is advancing, but it's obvious that the technology is still rough. Hell, even digital HID ballasts are still not ironed out completely and now we have a new technology gaining a foothold. Meanwhile, guys like me who are scientific enough to understand the ideas involved, but not interested enough to learn a college-degree's worth of knowledge about LEDs are left not wanting to risk money on LED. If I buy my own, they're absurdly expensive, and if I build my own, it's tedious work and tons of knowledge required. There's really no good excuse for the price of LED systems either. They contain so much less actual material than HID systems. The power drivers are more complicated, but they're usually electronic and thus also should be cheaper. I always hear "in a few years, everyone will be using LED to grow". At the rate things are developing, maybe in 5 years that will be true, but not until the price goes way down, they get full UL listing, and the consistency goes way up. __________________ --------------------------------------------- My newest grow diary: 400W CMH + 256W T8. Multi-strain perpetual organic My Grow Diary(finished) T-8 only grow cab, taking shoplights to the extreme(finished) "This coir smells so good I'm having a growgasm!" - Me
	Quote

03-28-2012, 08:09 PM	#45
magiccannabus Next Stop: Outer Space! Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Between the Mississippi and the Missouri Posts: 1,990	Thanks for the reply. I see that the LEDs do work. I know they are technically here, but they are still very confusing to the newbies. There's a lot of scams, and from what I am reading, very few commercial units have the quality of power supply that they should have. It's just a whirlwind of new tech, wild price ranges, wild claims, and outright conflicting first-hand accounts. Habeeb had a light that is top quality, and he still had a 30% output drop on one end of his lights. There's just a lot being ironed out. I believe LED is the future, I believe it can even be the now for those who can sort it all out, but we're far from the simplicity of HID purchasing. __________________ --------------------------------------------- My newest grow diary: 400W CMH + 256W T8. Multi-strain perpetual organic My Grow Diary(finished) T-8 only grow cab, taking shoplights to the extreme(finished) "This coir smells so good I'm having a growgasm!" - Me
	Quote

03-28-2012, 08:47 PM	#46
yoss33 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: South-east Europe Posts: 1,527	I believe it will all settle down when LEDs become so cheap that the big players in lighting (Philips, Osram, etc.) bring real solutions in big numbers for the masses. Quality and ease of use will definitely increase. Now LED lighting in the range of hundreds of watts is a small specialized niche. But LED emiters (many diodes packed together) in the range of 50-100W, cheaper than $1/W are already readily available, so I guess the big companies are very soon to enter the game and offer even cheaper and complete substitutions of HPS and MH. __________________ "Wouldn't he remember his first home, what passed for wisdom there, and his fellow prisoners, and consider himself happy and them pitiable? And wouldn't he disdain whatever honors, praises, and prizes were awarded there to the ones who guessed best which shadows followed which? Moreover, were he to return there, wouldn't he be rather bad at their game, no longer being accustomed to the darkness? Wouldn't it be said of him that he went up and came back with his eyes corrupted, and that it's not even worth trying to go up? And if they were somehow able to get their hands on and kill the man who attempts to release and lead up, wouldn't they kill him?"
	Quote 1 members found this post helpful.

04-13-2012, 07:10 PM	#47
analogue Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Chlorophyll Manager Posts: 213	Kessil 350, Magenta 73 watts, initial 71 watts after 30 minutes Attached Thumbnails
	Quote 3 members found this post helpful.

04-14-2012, 08:19 AM	#49
GP73LPC Strain Collector/Seed Junkie/Landrace Accumulator/Bean Gatherer Join Date: May 2010 Location: working towards off-the-grid Posts: 5,080	thnks man __________________ LED-1LB+ Grows LED-Mythbusting LED-GPW LED-Retailers 213W LED Grow Ozone thru Carbon Rain Collection DIY Solar Greenhouse STEALTH Fishtank Cab Seed Junky Hall VG/PG, Tinctures, Oils, ECigs, ELiquids
	Quote

04-20-2012, 07:04 PM	#50
GP73LPC Strain Collector/Seed Junkie/Landrace Accumulator/Bean Gatherer Join Date: May 2010 Location: working towards off-the-grid Posts: 5,080	in the comments just below video, california lightworks solarflare 200, is really 165 watts... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSzwpBO_Rr0 __________________ LED-1LB+ Grows LED-Mythbusting LED-GPW LED-Retailers 213W LED Grow Ozone thru Carbon Rain Collection DIY Solar Greenhouse STEALTH Fishtank Cab Seed Junky Hall VG/PG, Tinctures, Oils, ECigs, ELiquids
	Quote 1 members found this post helpful.

04-22-2012, 06:44 AM	#51
Phychotron Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 666	Blackstar 500 Blackstar 240, first one Blackstar 240, ordered a few months later but has detachable cord and pulls more wattage. Advanced LED 400w Diamond series Advanced LED 180w Extreme Flower. I'm done with blackstar because of their wattage confusion. I'm getting good results from the diamond series from Advanced LED.
	Quote 6 members found this post helpful.