[Stoner4Life]

By AP Science Writer Seth Borenstein – Fri Jun 24, 5:19 pm ET

WASHINGTON – A yearlong experiment with the nation's electric grid could mess up traffic lights, security systems and some computers — and make plug-in clocks and appliances like programmable coffeemakers run up to 20 minutes fast.

"A lot of people are going to have things break and they're not going to know why," said Demetrios Matsakis, head of the time service department at the U.S. Naval Observatory, one of two official timekeeping agencies in the federal government.

Since 1930, electric clocks have kept time based on the rate of the electrical current that powers them. If the current slips off its usual rate, clocks run a little fast or slow. Power companies now take steps to correct it and keep the frequency of the current — and the time — as precise as possible.

The group that oversees the U.S. power grid is proposing an experiment would allow more frequency variation than it does now without corrections, according to a company presentation obtained by The Associated Press.

Officials say they want to try this to make the power supply more reliable, save money and reduce what may be needless efforts. The test is tentatively set to start in mid-July, but that could change.

Tweaking the power grid's frequency is expensive and takes a lot of effort, said Joe McClelland, head of electric reliability for the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission.

"Is anyone using the grid to keep track of time?" McClelland said. "Let's see if anyone complains if we eliminate it."

No one is quite sure what will be affected. This won't change the clocks in cellphones, GPS or even on computers, and it won't have anything to do with official U.S. time or Internet time.

But wall clocks and those on ovens and coffeemakers — anything that flashes "12:00" when it loses power — may be just a bit off every second, and that error can grow with time.

It's not easy figuring what will run fast and what won't. For example, VCRs or DVRs that get their time from cable systems or the Internet probably won't be affected, but those with clocks tied to the electric current will be off a bit, Matsakis said.

This will be an interesting experiment to see how dependent our timekeeping is on the power grid, Matsakis said.

The North American Electric Reliability Corp. runs the nation's interlocking web of transmission lines and power plants. A June 14 company presentation spelled out the potential effects of the change: East Coast clocks may run as much as 20 minutes fast over a year, but West Coast clocks are only likely to be off by 8 minutes. In Texas, it's only an expected speedup of 2 minutes.

Some parts of the grid, like in the East, tend to run faster than others. Errors add up. If the grid averages just over 60 cycles a second, clocks that rely on the grid will gain 14 seconds per day, according to the company's presentation.

Spokeswoman Kimberly Mielcarek said the company is still discussing the test and gauging reactions to its proposal, and may delay the experiment a bit.

Mielcarek said in an email that the change is about making the grid more reliable and that correcting the frequency for time deviations can cause other unnecessary problems for the grid. She wrote that any problems from the test are only possibilities.

In the future, more use of renewable energy from the sun and wind will mean more variations in frequency on the grid, McClelland said. Solar and wind power can drop off the grid with momentary changes in weather. Correcting those deviations is expensive and requires instant backup power to be always at the ready, he said.

The test makes sense and should not cause too much of a hassle for people, said Jay Apt, a business professor and director of the Electricity Industry Center at Carnegie Mellon University.

But Tom O'Brian, who heads the time and frequency division at the National Institute of Standards and Technology, expects widespread effects.

He said there are alternatives if people have problems from the test: The federal government provides the official time by telephone and on the Internet.


I'm wondering wtf is gonna happen to my digital Lumatek ballasts and bulbs that seem so sensitive to power fluctuations, will they shut down & then do a re-start?? Will cycle fluctuations cause the same issues as power dips & spikes? I see no mention of the upcoming 'Smart Grid' which intelligently measures individuals usage but I'm betting these issues are somehow closely related.

I personally will be hiding the use of one or two HID fixtures by claiming I use vaporizers set on timers in different portions of my house to defeat smart grid tech. Steam vaporizers run @ 600-750watts continuously.

[seeyouaunty]

Oh lawd thats bad news IMO. They're talking about the frequency of the AC power (60Hz in the USA, 50Hz in most other places) Reading between the lines here the issue isn't timekeeping, the issue is that the power grid is getting overloaded/unstable. Grid stability is measured by the change in frequency, if the frequency is stable the grid is stable. If the frequency starts fluctuating the grid is overloaded and unstable. They seem to be saying its too expensive to maintain a stable power grid so instead of upping capacity or shutting things off when overloaded they're just going to let the grid strain under load and see what happens.

Hope i'm wrong but if not expect blackouts to become more common.

I'm wondering wtf is gonna happen to my digital Lumatek ballasts and bulbs that seem so sensitive to power fluctuations, will they shut down & then do a re-start?? Will cycle fluctuations cause the same issues as power dips & spikes?

I can't imagine the small frequency variations will bother your ballasts, they're not as disruptive as voltage dips. As long as you actually have power you should be right.

[BudGood]

Very interesting... I'm going to be running digitals as well. I wonder what the frequency highs and lows will be during this experiment?

[DiscoBiscuit]

Read a post the other week about digis and power issues. The poster said one of his lumateks re-fires itself and he has to turn the other back on. I don't recon dips and spikes are a biggy, not sure if notifying them about your vaporizers is a good thing (or a flag.)

Smart grid sounds like catching power thieves and other power company shit. A smart meter is what tells the power company your specifics, depending on how 'smart' your meter is and whether you have any smart appliances.

A line conditioner or surge protector might help if you experience a surge. Don't know how well they do for frequency variance.

IMO, running a few seconds fast every day isn't as bad as running slow. A slow timer might mimic waxing day lengths and that's not good in 12/12. My hydrofarm battery-backup digi timer keeps me from having to reset the elements but it runs fast. As much as 5 to 6 minutes per 2 to 3 month flower cycle. Not really enough to worry about. Always thought it was a bum crystal. No telling how it'll work with frequency variance.

[seeyouaunty]

Originally Posted by BudGood

Very interesting... I'm going to be running digitals as well. I wonder what the frequency highs and lows will be during this experiment?

Hmm i should have realised this in my original post but there won't be any sudden spikes or dips in the frequency. It can only change slowly because its directly tied to the rotational speed of the electric generators in the power stations. For the frequency to drop x% in y seconds the generator also has to reduce its rotational speed by the same x% in y seconds. The generators have so much rotational momentum that they can't change speed very quickly, and so the frequency can't change very quickly either.

The original post had a worst case of being 20min out after a year. That means the frequency on average was about 0.003% off.
Here in NZ if the grid frequency lowers by more than 0.5Hz (1%) they start turning things off to reduce the load. If things get really overloaded you won't notice the frequency drop because the powerstation will likely trip out and leave you in the dark.

[PoopyTeaBags]

they just trying to make u buy new shit.

[Hundred Gram Oz]

The aliens are close!! Keep looking up!

[supermanlives]

i am getting a sun dial

[Stoner4Life]

and then of course there's this possible scenario:

"A lot of people are going to have things break and they're not going to know why," said Demetrios Matsakis, head of the time service department at the U.S. Naval Observatory, one of two official timekeeping agencies in the federal government.

so your new Xbox or PlayStation up & fries (dies) and the manufacturer sez: Sorry but we cannot accept responsibility for units that are damaged/broken due to 'power fluctuations', so where do you go for recompense?

[BlueBlazer]

Boss: Why are you late?

You: Power fluctuation.