[sunnydog]

Originally Posted by vStagger Leev

I hear what your saying... but doesnt the multiple transplants mean a denser root system?? I learned this from a BOG article years ago in Cannabis CUlture magazing. I also read it takes longer for plants to grow large in big pots from the get go, because they do not have a dense root structure wich means the overall yield will suffer no? Would lvoe some info on this! Peace and grow with love, Stagger!

I started to compose a well thought out argument against this.But then said "fuckit,it's late"
The bottom line is it's a pain in the ass, and the plants appear to do as well or better, so, I always do less.

AFOM and others here are experimenting with No-Till, if this works well,this takes like 80% of the worst work away.
BTW, AFOM reports on par development compared to the "controls"

"There can be no progress without deviation from the norm" F.Zappa

Good luck!!

SD

[mad librettist]

I hear what your saying... but doesnt the multiple transplants mean a denser root system?? I learned this from a BOG article years ago in Cannabis CUlture magazing. I also read it takes longer for plants to grow large in big pots from the get go, because they do not have a dense root structure wich means the overall yield will suffer no?

This one hass been around for years, and it survives because beginners get faster growth and denser roots by following this method.

but - if you get the water right, unrestricted root growth will give you maximum growth above ground

I also believe a dense living mulch forces more branching and more ideal surface conditions, resulting in faster growth.

[Scrappy4]

Originally Posted by vStagger Leev

I hear what your saying... but doesnt the multiple transplants mean a denser root system?? I learned this from a BOG article years ago in Cannabis CUlture magazing. I also read it takes longer for plants to grow large in big pots from the get go, because they do not have a dense root structure wich means the overall yield will suffer no? Would lvoe some info on this! Peace and grow with love, Stagger!

I agree with at least two transplants for better roots in container growing in hard sided pots, but fabric pots? I'm not too sure. There seems to be a whole different root dynamic going on with air pruning pots, and the same idea might not be true. But to each there own, they both work.....scrappy

[mad librettist]

I think people misunderstand how roots work. The fine root hairs are where all the action happens. They stay fine for a while, but eventually they die back, that part of the root gets thicker, and root hairs form again on new growth. When your container is full of thick roots, there is no room for root hairs. Then the plant is root bound and has trouble absorbing nutes and water.

Going through progressively larger pots makes growth spurts by creating relief from a less than ideal situation. But if you have it in a container large enough to get you through harvest (7 gals close enough) in the first place, there is no root binding or crowding to relieve. You can mulch the whole container too, so you are always feeding your soil on the spot.

I have always heard this from people who "pot on": it helps with the root structure. But I have never heard anyone explain how that works, other than the old yarn about roots circling the pot. Of course some roots circle the pot, but others branch throughout.

Smart pots - they cause roots to branch rather than circle (branching in circles but whatever), provided it's dry enough. But smart pots will not get you even an extra month without repotting if you grow a bonsai in it. Yes they help, but they don't address the issue of older roots getting thick, taking up room, and not working for a living.

If you give a plant enough of the soil it needs, it will know what to do with it.

[Scrappy4]

I'll splain it to you. If you have a regular hard sided pot, the plants tend to get a dead spot right under the plant as the roots grow outward. When you transplant up along the way, you minimize this rootless zone. And with smart/ air pots there is no rootless zone.

Some of this is just how you grow as well, not a right or wrong situation. In my case I don't have room for big vegging pots or plants. But they do get a week or more under a big veg light, after a transplant, until they fill up a screen. So for me, I don't nessarilly want fast explosive veg growth, or can I do a long veg in big pots, so I have to time things out somewhat. I start clones in beer cups, transplant into 2 gallon pots, the go to 7 gallons in the flower box. If I time it right they are almost up to the screen when they go in the box, and about 9-11 weeks old from being cut.........scrappy

[mad librettist]

I'll splain it to you. If you have a regular hard sided pot, the plants tend to get a dead spot right under the plant as the roots grow outward

except I have no such thing in my 15 gallon pots, because the perched water is not right under the rooting cut. Right under my rooting cuts is the best dirt in the whole container, right under where mulch always winds up drifting. Right where worm activity is highest. The sweet spot. This is a property of the medium, not whether or not the container is hard or soft.

here is a reminder of how perched water for the same medium will look across a range of containers. Notice the level does not change:




perched water is making your dead spot. there is no such thing in nature (the dead spot, not perched water) and no reason to have it inside.


up-potting solves a problem that is created by small containers, by using small containers.

try a properly sized container of a good medium, watered properly, and add a wick if its a slow mix. you will never go back to up-potting unless you are low on space. It is not about speed. You can slow things down all sorts of ways. But the quality and health of a plant that's been "home" its whole life is better than a vagabond plant.


If you are stuck with little space, do what you need to, but also be smart: pick the tallest containers you can use for the volume you have, and just tipping a container on its side makes it drain better. lots of rot and crass h2o2 use could be prevented by a little shim on one side. Also the wick option works to eliminate the "dead spot".

[vStagger Leev]

Wow, madlib! Thanks for all that info! And once again I completely understand what your saying, but if you can transplant the plant before it's completely rootbound and still get a much denser root system is that not peaking the plants performance? All of the root matter inside the pot is already taken up and used the entire area of the pot...thus a dense root structure, if you do this repeatedly you will get an amazingly dense root structure no? Increasing in higher yields? Case in point i just harvested 7oz's from a durban poison plant in a 3gal pot? This was achieved with just a few transplants, I guess I'm just sketchy about switching my system when it works so well. i've just always had amazing results with almost no transplant shock when i do transplant so i've always done it. Thank you for your amazing input as always mad lib! Much love, Peace and grow with lvoe, Stagger

[mad librettist]

IME root density is related to how the medium encourages branching. I'm sure you have seen a clone rooted in water - the roots don't look right.

If you can harvest 7 oz off a 3 gal with potting on, you can do it without. But the canopy is quite large, and would a bigger container take up that much more space? The thing to remember if you try it my way is that it takes more gardening skill to get the watering right.

In any case if you actually follow the roots, you will see they go after the spots with nutes, air, and water. If you use blumats, it's easy to see where the plant has sent more roots than normal.

but remember, I gave some good tips in case you stick with your method. Tilting the pot is probably the most important.

Originally Posted by mad librettist

The thing to remember if you try it my way is that it takes more gardening skill to get the watering right.

That reminds me of something I've been wondering about... Do you think there's another related beneficial effect of using a living mulch, in the sense that the mulch will influence the overall water needs and speed of uptake for the container as a whole? I'm pretty lifted at the moment and may not be able to articulate this well, but I'm intensely curious about this.

I know that you use auto-waterers in your pots with living mulch, and it seems likely to me that because your plants are essentially being watered "on demand" that the effect may not be as obvious to you as to someone who hand waters, but wouldn't a living mulch help remove any excess water somewhat more quickly, in effect providing a bit of a buffer for those who might be inadvertently a little heavy-handed on the watering?

I apologize if this is a bit of a side-track, but I really do want to know if that could be a part of the "recipe for success" with a no-transplant philosophy. Or, at the very least, what other implications the use of a living mulch might have on no-transplant growing.

Peace and good vibes to y'all



.

[mad librettist]

I know that you use auto-waterers in your pots with living mulch, and it seems likely to me that because your plants are essentially being watered "on demand" that the effect may not be as obvious to you as to someone who hand waters, but wouldn't a living mulch help remove any excess water somewhat more quickly, in effect providing a bit of a buffer for those who might be inadvertently a little heavy-handed on the watering?

check out the thread!

my experience suggests your guess is bang-on.

I started considering the living mulch indoors after reading Cocannouer's "weeds, guardians of the soil". He describes water moving along the outside of the taproot, and higher up in the soil where food crops can reach it. I figured I could use the same effect to eliminate perched water while still using a more dense medium.

My second inspiration was Masanobu Fukuoka. The obvious link is that he used clover in his rice production, but actually the starting point was the famous question "what can I not do". I wondered that about my indoor grow. Can I not need to add compost, or top dress with material I have to go collect from somewhere? Can I not water so much, not disturb the soil so much? Clover says I can.

Even with blumats, keeping even moisture and active soil is a challenge. When the living mulch dies off under the scrog, I have to replace it with leaves from the plant (and the plant just happens to need major trimming). If I don replace the living mulch, the top soil dries out.

Clover also prevents compaction.

Clover can share a mycorrhizal infection with cannabis.

Clover breathes life into the soil as it organizes the rhizosphere to meet its needs. The resulting system is inviting to cannabis.

Clover does not compete with cannabis and can be mowed if it doesn't behave.

As a side benefit we don't even need to think about, clover can form nodules and leak ammonium like a drip feed.