Seeking Critique on Vert Colosseum SOG concept.

catman said:

How about some pictures of all that bud!?

Sorry you didn't meet your goal bro, but you didn't do bad by any means. I think if ya only did one or two things differently and everything else the same, you'd be much closer to your goal. Thanks for another great thread Anti :]

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I will take some pics of the dried bud but I have my workspace torn apart right now while I work on the table. Plus all the buds are in 20 odd jars. I'll get to it sooner or later. I'll try to make it sooner.

You could have crammed more plants in there and/or topped all of them. Just one simple change could have made all the difference.

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I don't think cramming more plants is going to solve the problem. What I'm saying is that identical genetics under ~120w of CFL per sq. ft. yielded some dense, potent, eye-catching nugs. and that the exact same genetics yielded some fluffy, potent, much less pretty nugs under 50w of CMH per sq. ft. I went with a lot of wattage with CFL after reading about their limitations. According to theoretical math and everybody else's expecation, I should have pretty much perfect light density right now, but I have weak nugs.

So I think adding even more plants might up my harvest numbers, but I don't think I'll get the density I want unless I solve the underlying problem.

There were no plants in the spot where you had the most light, between the bulbs. A single row or column of plants could've been placed there.

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I've been thinking about this myself. I will definitely consider adding a middle row if I redesign the table.

Nothing wrong with pH drop kits or your lighting. Watts are watts, but plants care not; it is more challenging to get higher GPW with smaller wattage bulbs. I don't have any hard proof to back that up, but having read thousands of threads in which many were micro, I'm pretty confident in that being true.

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I've read a lot about 50w/sq. ft. and DHF swears by it. But I'm at 53w per sq. ft. and I'm not getting the density I got last time.

Of course, I think a lot of it might have to do with the medium. In my light mix (sphagnum/peat/perlite) I had to feed every two days and by the end of the grow, the plants would be a little droopy by day two. In coco, I was able to go two days without the plants EVER drooping, which led me to believe they were getting what they wanted.

Does that make sense?

I really want to get it fixed. I've always heard that HID nugs were denser than CFL nugs and I've got exactly the opposite. From identical genetics in identical containers with an identical feeding regimen.

The only things (that I am aware of) that changed were medium, light and environment. Plus, these plants got an extra week or so of veg time that my plants normally do NOT get.

So it makes sense to me to look to these things for the solution to the problem. What do you think?

Anti said:

I already have two sets (one fill one drain) of E&F fittings in the 1/2" fill and 3/4" drain variety.

I pulled them off the table yesterday and scraped all the excess silicone off of them. I also have the vinyl tubing that I bought to run the E&F setup originally as planned.

I could EASILY run this as an E&F setup just as originally planned. I have all materials on hand to do so.

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Sounds like a great option. Seeing your funds go to endless Home Depot trips for extensive modifications isn't what this is all about. Don't get me wrong, I'm not telling you to be lazy, I'm just not convinced that your feeding method alone is going to improve your yield that much. Plus, after this thing has been built, used once & paid for, it would be a crime not to run it as intentionally designed.

Some thought on making the most of potential root space. . . Having an empty container every other slot just doesn't seem to jive considering how much ganj you want to grow in each trough. I'd want to make use of as much trough space for the medium as possible. I would NOT however go with a bulk medium without containers. I don't remember the width of your trough, but there's got to be some sort of square, lightly tapered container that uses the space well. That way when you get your strain dialed in the plants will be more consistent. "Typical" ebb & flow trays (the white ones from Botanicare for example) are 7" deep. Folks routinely flood them at about 4" of depth with containers that are 10-12" tall. I've done it myself. This is with hydroton, and it works great. If it were me, I'd increase my pot size while keeping in mind that I want as much root mass per plant as possible. The fact that the containers will only be half flooded is no big deal. 50% of your container height being flooded is quite a bit.

Containers. . . I like the idea of bigger containers. The ones you used seem like they'd be better in a horizontal garden @ like 9/sqft, where the number of plants makes up for the lack of individual plant yield. The downside to using bigger containers will be that you have to meticulously understand how your strain stretches in your final setup because the containers themselves may very well allow the plants to get larger than you want.

Canopy. . . In your images throughout the grow, it seemed that quite a bit of light was escaping through the back of the top tier. This tells me that the canopy could be thicker. I've flowered an indica-leaning AK pheno I used to keep in very small containers like you're using & I can't imagine only having two of them deep with 400's. I would think 3 would be more appropriate to use all the lightning (just a thought after seeing your images). Hopefully this problem will be solved by default if you use larger containers that allow for fuller plants since your table has fixed dimensions.

Overall I still think your setup is fine overall. When I see your pics I can envision the table with a thick circular canopy around it, the details just need to fall into place. Due to sheer plant numbers you need to get your table automated one way or another, but that's certainly possible. Good luck!

Anti said:

I don't think cramming more plants is going to solve the problem. What I'm saying is that identical genetics under ~120w of CFL per sq. ft. yielded some dense, potent, eye-catching nugs.

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I know what you're saying. Seen it myself :]

The way I think of things is ya want to make the best use of light rays that are coming normal (in a perpendicular sense) from the lighting element by having them beam directly into buds. When I look at your canopy and the size of your colas, I can see gaps of space occupied by fan leafs that could have been another cola. Optimally, there would be colas everywhere that are damn near touching each other. This won't address any density issue though as you said.

To get the densest buds, you need to make sure your getting them as close to the light as ya can within the strains acceptable temperature. Need fans right below them bulbs blowing up to do that. Lots of other factors, but that is the most important one from my experiences.

Intuitively you know DHF's rule of thumb of wouldn't apply well if it was 50w/sq ft of CFL lighting. Just sayin' again watts to watts is apples to oranages to a plant.

I thought it looked like you chopped a little early, but I could be wrong about that.

Does that make sense?

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Makes perfect sense. Perhaps some drooping every now and then is more optimal than frequent over-saturation?

Coco + perlite will be very much like peat + perlite. Why not invest in this second run and experiment with different ratios? With an automated watering system, I've seen the best results from 4:1 perlite to coco. I do think more people in general use more coco than perlite.

You're so close to achieving your goal so don't get stressed and fix something that ain't broke. Your attention to detail has served you very well getting to where you are now, but your nearing a point in which trying harder might give ya worse results. All the little things you learn to do better will really show in the future because of all the extra things you've already done right. Don't forget to enjoy the fragrance of the labor you've already done when you are in need of some patience

catman said:

I thought it looked like you chopped a little early, but I could be wrong about that.

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You know, I can tell in the smoking that I could've probably gone a little longer with them this round, even though I did go a few days beyond what I usually did in CFL. I thought about going an extra week but then i didn't do it. Still, I don't know that it would've made "all the difference" on its own.

Coco + perlite will be very much like peat + perlite. Why not invest in this second run and experiment with different ratios? With an automated watering system, I've seen the best results from 4:1 perlite to coco. I do think more people in general use more coco than perlite.

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4:1 perlite:coco? I'm envisioning a wall of white with some flecks of brown in there. I am planning on adding perlite to the coco this round. Don't know why i didn't do it last round, as I had already read many threads where they showed that coco + perlite was outperforming coco alone. ::slaps forehead::

You're so close to achieving your goal so don't get stressed and fix something that ain't broke. Your attention to detail has served you very well getting to where you are now, but your nearing a point in which trying harder might give ya worse results. All the little things you learn to do better will really show in the future because of all the extra things you've already done right. Don't forget to enjoy the fragrance of the labor you've already done when you are in need of some patience

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Thanks. I've just been hearing people say that CFL is nothing compared to HID and so I figured I wouldn't do any WORSE than I did in my CFL cab. It was a real blow to my ego but I'm recovering now and I'm determined to get my HID buds up to a density that i can be happy with.

There's no real way I could get the bottom tier any closer in toward the light. At current distance any that stray much closer than an inch further into the light get the icarus treatment. I could use different techniques when staking them in to allow the top tier to lean in toward the bulbs more.

What's the best solution as far as drip lines at this point? Should I get those drip spikes or drip rings or just run two or more drip lines per plant or what? I know some of you guys have experimented with different drip systems already. Give me the benefit of your current understanding.

I found out I can get those SHORT-POTS in white. I'm waiting to hear back on a quote for 100 of 'em right now. I haven't given up on the bed idea, I'm just trying to feel out all the ideas.

The Short pots would double each plants available medium with nearly the same vertical profile. Depending on how they fit in the troughs I might be able to pack them in right on top of each other, which would create approximately 4" spacing between each plant with no spacer pots necessary.

50 watts per sq ft using HID lights is all I have experience with......

CFL`s are different in that they say a 23 watt bulb actually puts out as much light as a 100 watt incandescent bulb , but wtf does that mean as far as how you measure true wattage per sq ft......

As far as the plants are concerned I`m pretty sure all the above hasta be converted into lumens to know exactly how much light they`re exposed to , and the only wayta do that is with a light meter.....That way.....

There`s no comparing apples to oranges but rather lumens to lumens.....footcandles and such shit.....

I knew your plants were airy and stretched out Anti , but I assure you it wasn`t from not enough light.......guaranteed.....

Your setup is sound.......Ebb and flow works ok with perlite cuz coco wicks well and the upper parts of the rootzones can stay a lil drier like my old ebb and flow buckets did and form more air roots.....

1/4" open end drip tubing with basket stakes worked for me with my coco setups.....but I only fed once a day with #5 smartpots.....

Both ebb and flow as well as timed top drip fed are solid producers......Bobble and HGO are in the midst of doin topfed.....If yas do ebb and flow just top flush once a week for insurance and usin dripclean will make yas golden....

Smaller containers with as much rootmass as possible but still not lettin em dry out as much as yas did last run will improve things with timed feeds I think....now.....

Ya`ll figure out howta plumb and drain this ship and put her back ta sailin.....Get ta work Homie....Good luck.......

Peace.....DHF.........

any chance on seeing those bud shots?

i have been experimenting with a 1k vert setup. just finished my second run.

i was running both chem Ibl and sour D Ibl in the system. just a single 1K horti bulb.

i get my roots swirling in 4 x 4 squares and transplant into #2 smart pots.

right into flower. it is only a 2 sided stadium. each side has 4 shelves. 5 pots per

shelf. limited by size of my flower room;5'x8'.

each side has 20 pots. in the 2 sides with no stadium, i cram in 4-6 sours per side,

using milk crates. the stadiums yield about 12-14 oz per side, all 65 day chem.

the milk crate sides yield around 6 oz per side. the sour stretches more and yields

better, by about 100%. the chem Ibl yields about 17 grams per plant. i have to veg

them for 14-20 days tho; to about 12". the sour goes in from a well rooted clone. no

veg. 5-8 days longer in flower. ever sour is a 40+gram plant.

so i yield about 36-40 oz per harvest. always stoked. but thats with the

chem(mostly) in the stadiums. guess what i did? just took 65+ clones of the sour Ibl.

gonna mono-crop that bitch in the stadiums. if i do 52 sours, 20 per stadium and 12

total in the two milkcrate-ghetto-steez sides, 48 oz is easily attainable. im thinking

closer to 64 oz.

also, continuous feed is very important. i run pro-mix, chunky perlite and worm castings, along with cornicopia formula X(made locally in VT by the dude that owns Green Thumb gardening) and kool bloom powder. BLUMATS!!!!!!! my yields went through the roof after using them. now spending 300$ on 50 of them sucks, but it is worth it. or, use drips stakes or whatever BOBBLE suggests. all that matters is the medium never dries out. all that bullshit you read in grow books about letting yer plants dry out completely is false. i grow out door plants in 10 gallon bags with the bottoms cut out directly in swamps. plants explode.

so, my 2c, is dial in ur feeding/watering, switch over to HPS, and if you can, get a stretchy hybrid. flowering 4" clones into 1oz+ plants is a thing of beauty.

for the record: i must give all the credit to DHF, bobble and Selfhemployed for my success in VERT. i read, re-read and absorbed all of their vert findings, musings and problems before i built my first stadium. many thanks to them, as well as u Anti, for this thread.

RBDF

Ok bro so what way are you gonna do this? A good sleep usually helps put things in order.

HGO

lmao... Yeah, back to work. We can do this! omg I have so much more time on my hands now that class is out.

haha last day was yesterday, and I dont even know what to do with myself now.


aod

You guys all finished class and feel lost now? LOL, ICM has plenty of work fer ya's.

I just tacked a few pieces of 2x8 to a 2x4 to mimic your set up, and the Short One containers fit nicely into the slot. They wanted to be spaced 4.5" center to center.

Hundred Gram Oz said:

Ok bro so what way are you gonna do this? A good sleep usually helps put things in order.

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Well, I'm investing in the drip fed to waste idea. I went up to the hardware store to look at PVC. Not being much of a plumber, I need to kick that idea around for another day or two so I can get my head all the way around it. Wanna make sure I have it solved before I start laying out cash. Things get expensive when I "guesstimate" and then eff things up. (I've learned that the hard way.)

I'm still deciding between the bed and the pots. I'm also waiting to hear how much they're gonna cost me.

bobblehead said:

lmao... Yeah, back to work. We can do this! omg I have so much more time on my hands now that class is out.

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Congrats on making it through another semester. Enjoy the time away because the next one will be starting soon enough.

If you need something to do, explain to me how you attach the feeder lines to the main pump line (and any tips you may have discovered along the way that will save me from having to do it twice). That's one thing I am completely in the dark about.

Crusader Rabbit said:

I just tacked a few pieces of 2x8 to a 2x4 to mimic your set up, and the Smart One containers fit nicely into the slot. They wanted to be spaced 4.5" center to center.

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Thanks for going the extra mile, homie. So with 4.5" spacing i'd lose 2 plants off the top tier (38 instead of 40) and a similar number (say 4 just to be safe) on the bottom (26 instead of 30), so if I did it this way I'd end up with approximately 64 plants (instead of 70) but each plant would have a little more than twice the medium to grow in and its own dripper feeding it.

To keep the plants as close to the light as possible I will run the next run with only a day or two of veg.

Besides saving a nickel on the new pots, is there another more compelling reason to just run beds instead?

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=217068&highlight=bobblehead+makes+drip+system

skip the shut-off valves and use open ended basket stakes.

Sorry, I know I'm late to the party on this whole thing but hopefully some of my input can still help.

One of the main things that is going to help you wreck your previous numbers is switching to hydro like you are doing. YAY! But the way you go about it has to be good or it could wind up causing you more problems and headaches, so these are my ideas:

1. Ditch the pots. I know you're a picture whore (no disrespect, you know ) but you shouldn't let that affect your designs. Keep the plants stationary. Think of the plant, what's best for it, and how you can maximize every little aspect in relation to overall plant growth and health. You're restricting the amount of growth by limiting the rootzone to one specific size and area. You had a whole lot more room in that system that could have been filled by more root mass. I would suggest a bed of hydroton for optimal aeration and root space. Roots = Bud!

2. Stick with the Ebb and Flow design. The only thing about drip that I don't like is that usually it doesn't fully saturate the medium but rather one side of it really well and the other side not so much. Now that can be overcome with numerous drippers or drip rings but why go through all the hassle with the setup, cleaning, and replacement of hoses, fittings, and drippers when all you need is a fill, a drain, and a pump? Ebb and Flow saturates every inch of the medium to the height that you set your drain, no missed spots.

3. Keep the CMH bulbs. I don't think the problem with your yield had to do at all with the type of light you used but a combination of other factors that added up to your lower than expected yield.

4. Dial in your feeding. Alot of problems I see in many grow rooms stem from nutrient issues. I notice in your grows that you aren't without issues and I think a little dialing could help. At this exact second I don't remember what you're feeding but I'd be more than happy to make some suggestions that might help you improve things.

5. Keep doing you! You're doing a great job as it is man and you have absolutely nothing to be ashamed of. You've done far and above what I've seen from most newer growers. Look at your Anti-Cab, so many people would LOVE to have that as their second or third setup let alone their first! As long as you keep improving at the pace you have been, we're gonna see amazing things out of you in the years to come bro

Agent-Smith said:

I notice in your grows that you aren't without issues and I think a little dialing could help.

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that's the nicest way I've ever seen anyone say that you have problems that you can work on. lol...

are you sure i cant swing you to hydroton

bobblehead said:

that's the nicest way I've ever seen anyone say that you have problems that you can work on. lol...

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LOL, if anything, I thought the picture whore comment would get commented first but hey...

Seriously though, I see it with lots of grows but nobody says anything about it. As you know, I in no way meant he sucks at it, or is bad at it at all, but almost everyone in the game could use some dialing in on the nutrient side of things.

in response to bobbles concern of power outages, i accidentally left my pump unplugged for a lights on period and everything was ok, not even drooping yet...

also you can use larger containers as a buffer, and two smaller pumps to fill the table incase one fails...

edit: trust me when i say that i was scared shitless to put all my eggs in the hydro basket but i couldnt be happier with the results