Organic Soil in Small Cups Question

The Phoenix · Nov 1, 2010

I have noticed here on ICMag that many of you growers are growing really nice plants in small Solo cups or foam cups.

I use a very good quality organic soil, and I amend it with added perlite, and just recently dolomite lime. At about the 3 week mark the plants stop growing, the bottom leaves start dying, and the plants look like shit.

I can drop these right now into larger containers with the same soil mixture with added Blood Meal (15-0-0) and Bone Meal (0-11-0) and they will recover and grow fine. I am currently running tests on seedlings with full strength mixture, but it will be a few weeks before results are found.

I have been automaticaly up potting at about 17 days from small containers for years to avoid this stunting of the seedlings. I would like to grow the plants for a longer period of time in small containers, so I am looking for advice from the experts to get ideas on what is wrong here.

Based on what I see here, the plants should grow fine in these containers to a much larger size. By no means are the plants rootbound when I remove them from the cups.

I sure could use some advice in this situation. This happens whether I feed them with water or with liquid nutients (Pure Blend Grow).

jaykush · Nov 1, 2010

what is your quality organic soil made of?

those seedlings look like there in too rich of soil.

B. Friendly · Nov 1, 2010

I am wondering you put drainage holes in the bottom of cups, but that's not my real concern
off the top of my head the pot is to small and restrictive for the girls, seen this in personally when had less than 1 gallon pots in the same room with 2+ gallon pots the small pots did not take off the way the large pots did
Lastly I am wondering if the soil is to hot for little girls and needs to be diluted, seen the same thing on my girls recently but they grew out of it, although the first 2 sets of leaves where good then the next 3 sets of leaves where yellow spotted and now the tops are looking good. which leads me to believe it was to hot of a mix for the little girs until they grew and could handle it. A hot soil is high in nutrients to clarify.

The Phoenix · Nov 1, 2010

jaykush said:
what is your quality organic soil made of?

those seedlings look like there in too rich of soil.

Edna's Choice Organic Potting Soil by E.B. Stone:

Composted Fir Bark, Sphagunum Peat Moss, Redwood Compost, Mushroom Compost, Volcanic Pumice, Earthworm Castings, Washed Sand, Kelp Meal, Bat Guano, Feather Meal, Gypsum, Oystershell Lime and Dolomite Lime, Natural wetting Agent-Yucca Shidegera Saponin.

Hard to beleive it's to hot because when I up pot, I add Blood Meal and Bone Meal, and these plants just take off. I feared adding the Blood and Bone meal at seedling stage because that would make it even hotter. They do just fine till they hit around 3 weeks.

These plants go into 1 or 2 gallon at 17 days with the same mixuture (with Blood and Bone Meal this time) and just explode with growth, but leave them in the small pots and they go down hill quick.

The Phoenix · Nov 1, 2010

B. Friendly said:
I am wondering you put drainage holes in the bottom of cups, but that's not my real concern
off the top of my head the pot is to small and restrictive for the girls, seen this in personally when had less than 1 gallon pots in the same room with 2+ gallon pots the small pots did not take off the way the large pots did
Lastly I am wondering if the soil is to hot for little girls and needs to be diluted, seen the same thing on my girls recently but they grew out of it, although the first 2 sets of leaves where good then the next 3 sets of leaves where yellow spotted and now the tops are looking good. which leads me to believe it was to hot of a mix for the little girs until they grew and could handle it. A hot soil is high in nutrients to clarify.

Yes, many drainage holes in the bottom. I go into hotter soil next when I drop these into 1 or 2 gallon, and they will recover and explode with growth. The seedlings look great up until the 3 week mark, with no signs of burning. It's interesting because it actually seems like they are lacking to me.

If I transplant into hotter soil at 17 days, I have no issues at all.

The Phoenix · Nov 1, 2010

These plants are all the exact same age. The 1.5 qt look like shit, while the 3 plants transplanted into 2 gallon are taking off. The only difference between the two is size of pot and Blood and Bone Meal. The small pots are not rootbound at all.

The ones below are some new seedlings with the full strength large pot soil mixture for an experiment, but I wont find out for a couple more weeks what happens. They are 1 week old. Organic Soil, Dolomite Lime, Perlite, Blood Meal, Bone Meal all at full strength.

The Phoenix · Nov 1, 2010

Mostly the same plants a few weeks older. As you can see, once they get into the larger pots with Blood and Bone meal, they explode. This situation has been going on for years, and I would like to find out why the smaller pots are struggling since others here on this site grow very nice plants in small containers.

B. Friendly · Nov 1, 2010

sounds like you have nothing to worry about.
It's a releif to me cuz the same thing is happening to someone else.
So it just seems like they have a little difficulty because of the hot soil until they grow onto it.
no worries

The Phoenix · Nov 1, 2010

B. Friendly said:
sounds like you have nothing to worry about.
It's a releif to me cuz the same thing is happening to someone else.
So it just seems like they have a little difficulty because of the hot soil until they grow onto it.
no worries

Well the only reason I dont worry is because I up pot at 17 days and have no problems from then on. But if I want to keep them in small containers longer, then you can see the results from the pic's above. I'm really not sure it's a soil heat issue because the plants in small containers suffer while the larger pots with hotter soil thrive.

Keeping them in smaller containers has a huge advantage in winter when I have to suppliment the plants with artificial lighting and space becomes an issue.

PoisonedDart · Nov 1, 2010

I have not started them in a full mix before, but I generally start them in a yogurt cup half full until they show that they want to live (about two weeks) then place them into the cups you see below using the standard organic mix of soil, perlite, lime, blood and bone. I leave them there for sometime 5 weeks if I need to wait for an opening in bloom with no issues.

growfr · Nov 1, 2010

I think your next experiment should be to cut your soil down a little further.

I have had great luck with equal parts mg organic potting soil / perlite and coarse coco. I use straight bubbled water pH'ed to 6.5 for the first week. Once I have 3 sets of true leaves, I add 1/4 strength liquid karma and 4 drops superthrive. I also use 3oz. bathroom cups with drainage slots. I've switched to LC's mix #1 since I last cracked beans but I would treat your potting mix the same whether or not it is MG, edna's or FFOF.

Remember, cannabis is a weed. Make it work for it. I believe that roots get a lot heartier when they need to search for food. Now to be perfectly honest, I lose 1 out of 10.... I feel that is a good price to pay. I don't want to keep weak plants that need to be babied.

That might not be the case if I grew from seed all the time. I take clones from every plant and flower them immediately for sex. If I get some pheno's that are hard to clone, I don't like to keep a mom from that seed.

B. Friendly · Nov 1, 2010

I don't know about cutting anything down I use a fare amount of dif soils and it works like a charm:
75L 3 parts peat 2.2cu.ft
3 parts perlite 50 Litre
50L 2 parts coco 1 Brick
30L 1 parts topsoil
1 part wormcasts, from Gaia 30Litre Bag
1 part Gaia FERTILIZING SOIL CONDITIONER 4-4-2 30Litre Bag
1 part potting soil 25Litre Bag
1 part vermiculite
1 part mushroom compost 20Litre Bag
14 Parts x 4L = 56Litres

Gaia 4-4-4 All Purpose 8g/litre = 450g’s @5 mixes = 2250g’s
Kelp meal 5g/L = 280g’s @ 5 mixes = 1400g’s
GROW,Gaia Seabird guano 2g/litre= 110g’s FLOWER, Gaia High P guano 5g/L
dolomite lime 4g/litre = 225g’s @ 5 mixes = 1125g’s
?rock potash 2g/L (included in Gaia All Purpose)
?rock phosphate 2g/L (included in Gaia All Purpose)

the bat guano amounts change a little with strain. for instance the Blueberry has less N guano in the mix - but that standard mix has worked for pretty much everything i have grown and i just refine it a little as i get strains dialled in.
feeding is often not necessary but i use biobizz bloom sometimes if i think they need it and molasses at 1 teaspoon/gallon a couple of times in late flowering. bear in mind i also use big pots for the cab size - 4 gallons each atm
(from VerdantGreen, best, cheapest mix I have ever seen!!) See his results for yourself!!

what's your mix consist of?

my clones have zero problems only my seedling girls get the yellowing leaf and then it goes away? don't know why it happened to 2 dif seed strains,

growfr · Nov 1, 2010

Oh, I forgot to mention that after 2 weeks they are rootbound as hell. I pop them into 20 ounce soda bottles and bury them down to the leaves and away they go.

I am a high-density junkie thanks to Dr Bud.

I think the thing to take away is that a little stress to the seedling will only help eliminate your weakest plants and reward you in the end. I used to strive for 100%. When I went back to college, I busted my ass to carry a 4.0 only to get screwed by an A minus in my last semester.

growfr · Nov 2, 2010

Wow, it seems like you have your mix dialed in to the max.
That is quite a shopping list you have there.

LC’s Soiless Mix #1:
5 parts Canadian Spaghnam Peat
3 parts perlite
2 parts wormcastings
Powdered dolomite lime @ 2 tablespoons per gallon or 1 cup per cubic foot of the soiless mix.

I transplant into the above with bone, blood and kelp

Since I am running them through flower in tiny pots, I submerge water them using EWC tea with fish emulsion, superthrive and liquid karma (sometimes guano top dressing and Pure Blend Bloom)

When I grow up and run bigger pots under bigger lights, I'll use a mix more like your's. I'm just growing for personal consumption.

The Phoenix · Nov 2, 2010

PoisonedDart said:
I have not started them in a full mix before, but I generally start them in a yogurt cup half full until they show that they want to live (about two weeks) then place them into the cups you see below using the standard organic mix of soil, perlite, lime, blood and bone. I leave them there for sometime 5 weeks if I need to wait for an opening in bloom with no issues.

Well thats what I'm talking about PD. I see this on ICMag by many growers, and I cannot get that kind of production in small cups so far. Do you know how many of those I can pack under a 400wt or 1kw lamp? Man, that would make my life a little easier if I can get them to grow like that till I'm ready for the larger pots.

So you are up potting into those cups from smaller yogert cups, and going into full strength in the foam cups huh.

I'm determined to figure this out!!!! I'm going to start a new batch tonight with a watered down mix, a regular mix, and another hot mix and see what happens.

Thanks guys, I'll be experimenting over the next month or two, so keep the sugestions coming if you dont mind.

My current mixture for seedlings is:
Organic Potting Soil
Perlite
Dolomite Lime.

Currently experimenting with:
Organic Potting Soil
Perlite
Dolomite Lime
Blood Meal
Bone Meal

More to come as I look at everyones suggestions.

guest2012y · Nov 2, 2010

I think they may just want more root room depending on what type they are....do you grow different types?

I have 1 month old clones sitting in oasis cubes on a bed perlite which I've neglected to transplant. As long as the roots have somewhere to go in that perlite they will do fine until I quit being neglectful and transplant. From there they will go into pint sized pots for another month before transplanting into the pots they will flower in. They will have no added ferts/nutes until they get into my recycled soil.

The Phoenix · Nov 2, 2010

Capt.Cheeze1 said:
I think they may just want more root room depending on what type they are....do you grow different types?

I have 1 month old clones sitting in oasis cubes on a bed perlite which I've neglected to transplant. As long as the roots have somewhere to go in that perlite they will do fine until I quit being neglectful and transplant. From there they will go into pint sized pots for another month before transplanting into the pots they will flower in. They will have no added ferts/nutes until they get into my recycled soil.

It really does not seem to matter which strain I'm running when I have this issue. I always believed that it was a root space issue in the past, and thats why I up pot at 17 days. I have virtually not issues when I do that.

But I want to push the envelope so to speak, and getting good production in small containers is top priority on my list right now. I'm looking into the air pots and all that, but it when I see plants like PD is growing in those cups, that's what I have my sites set on. Since I know it can be done, then I've got to make it happen in my garden.

NUG-JUG · Nov 2, 2010

The Phoenix said:
Well thats what I'm talking about PD. I see this on ICMag by many growers, and I cannot get that kind of production in small cups so far.

some of the pics you're talking about could be from people root pruning plants then re-potting them into the same pot, bonsai style.

PoisonedDart · Nov 2, 2010

Yeah, just plain promix for the first two and then full on after that. I know you want to feed from the start, but I havent yet so I can't help on that one.

P.S. no root pruning.

The Phoenix · Nov 3, 2010

Well the new test seedlings in the full strength soil formula seem to have been able to handle added Blood and Bone meal, and they are already larger than the other plants that have been in there much longer. Hard to believe the soil is that lacking that the seedlings need that much extra amendments.

The true test will be in the next few weeks.

Organic Soil in Small Cups Question

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