Scrutinizing Strains with Science : An Objective Discussion

MrBelvedere · Mar 8, 2015

Good points thx especially with limonene becoming irrelevant. Indeed they are doing something really good and hopefully they will make the public dataset available as XML or something that can be groped. Two problems are no standardized testing protocol and environmental factors affecting the numbers. Here is an algorithm to find similar strains/matches...

SQL Tables:
src
dst

Simplified SQL Fields:

src.SampleName as nvarchar
dst.THC as number(3,2)
dst.Limolene as number(3,2)
dst.CBD as number(3,2)

Example Records:

OhNoNotTheATF#1, 01.11%, 2.28%, 04.21%

NortLight#OOps , 21.12%, 2.21%, 04.21%

BlueDream #Two , 11.12%, 2.21%, 04.21%

FishStickMaint , 02.10%, 3.11%, 04.21%

I<3GeneraMotor, 12.11%, 3.21%, 05.21%

WheresMyCarKey , 10.11%, 3.21%, 05.21%

Task:

-We need to find all samples that have a similar "ratio" of attributes (THC, Limolene, CBD) within a threshold window of three hardcoded "percentage points" variance.

-OhNoNotTheATF#1 should match FishStickMaint because all the attributes are "similar" with less than 3 percentage points differing between OhNoNotTheATF and FishStickMaint.

-BlueDream #Two and I<3GeneraMotor and WheresMyCarKey should match because all the attributes are similar with less than three percentage points difference.

Here is resulting set:

Group1
OhNoNotTheATF#1, 01.11%, 2.28%, 04.21%

FishStickMaint , 21.12%, 2.21%, 04.21%

Group2
BlueDream #Two, 11.12%, 2.21%, 04.21%

I<3GeneraMotor, 12.11%, 3.21%, 05.21%

WheresMyCarKey, 10.11%, 3.21%, 05.21%

!In reality we have 100+ attributes, but to keep example data simple only illustrated three attributes (THC, Limolene, CBD)!

Algorithm (Oracle PSQL):

change the number 3 to 0.3 or whatever for less variance

SELECT src.SampleName, dst.*
FROM dst src
INNER JOIN SampleName dst on ABS(src.THC - dst.THC)< 3 AND ABS(src.Limolene - dst.Limolene)< 3 AND ABS(src.CBD - dst.CBD)< 3
ORDER BY 1 asc;

More Info:
http://docs.oracle.com/cd/B19306_01/server.102/b14200/functions002.htm

CannaBrix · Mar 8, 2015

Siskiyou Sam said:
For sure and one major difference between wine grape vines and cannabis plants is simply wine grapes are propagated asexualy from old famous vines. Cannabis being a dioecious annual is probably the most outbred, hybridised plants on the planet.
I'm reading up on the synergistic effect of specific terpenes on the body, mind, THC uptake, memory and the like. We probably shouldn't care if the THC is 15% or 20% But we do want high Limonene in the morning and Mycerene and Linalool at night before bed.

But the difference in end product isn't soley in the plant, in either cannabis or grapes. The difference is in the production. Whether that is in the growing or in the processing. For wine that is going from grapes to wine. For cannabis that could be going from fresh to cured product.

Again although the analogy doesn't fit completely, it doesn't matter how many hybrids or plants there are. The end product difference is in the chemical profile of the plant. Which our palates can give us some insight to. But we are limited. There are simply too many variables in cannabis to rely solely on our subjectivity.

It is not intuitive to know that Durban Poison is a great appetite stimulant because of the effect of the combination of .05% CBL and 1.23% myrcene (this is completely fictitious and made up by me on the spot as an example). We couldn't know this until the tests are done.

And then we break away from the fact the only good medicine for appetite stimulation is Durban Poison from Joe's Cannabis Farm from 2013. Now we KNOW good medicine for appetite stimulation has approximately .05% CBL and 1.23% myrcene.

And an even larger problem is that my example was done with only TWO of the substances found in cannabis, what about the others and how they play in the mix?

We just can't know this stuff by human trial an error. We have to TRY to set standards.

Fast forward to complete legalization, you don't have to buy the highest THC% strain at the counter cause they say its the 'best'. You can buy the one you like, and because you like it. You don't have to buy the $200 bottle of wine cause it's the 'best'. You can buy the one you like the most even if its $10.

CannaBrix · Mar 8, 2015

Donn said:
For me, consumers and breeders may have different interests here? I already can't keep track of the strains out there, and when I walk into the retail shop I need to be able to make do with what they have that day. If I can talk to them in terms of an analysis profile, and they know their products in those terms, then it practically doesn't matter what strains - that's the growers' business. So I'd attach the SC tests to the retail packaging, and your genetic trait fingerprinting would be for some breeder resource library.

Yes exactly! Consumers, breeders, AND growers have different interests with testing.

Donn · Mar 8, 2015

Not to put too fine a point on it, but want to make sure I don't come across like I know anything! A lot of very knowledgeable writers here think limonene in cannabis has a specific effect and no one that I know of thinks you can substitute kumquats. I just think it's an interesting question.

MrBelvedere · Mar 8, 2015

I think I understand your point, you're saying if limolene is low in the plant, then you can affect the high-profile by eating limolene, correct? I know a few substances where drinking citrus potentiates the experience. Seems like a good experiment. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12587690 For me, Citrus is good for cotton mouth. And some strains seem to give cotton mouth more than others.

Only Ornamental · Mar 9, 2015

MrBelvedere said:
... Seems like a good experiment. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12587690 ...

One point with essential oils is concentration: In your publication (and it's by far not the only one) they used 100-200 mg/kg BW i.p. . Translation: 100 to 200 mg per kilogram bodyweight intra-peritoneal application (injected into the abdominal cavity). This corresponds to 7-14 grams of such a substance for an adult person! That's insanely high amounts with zero significance in real life.

How much of a single monoterpene does a joint contain? Maybe 1/4 essential oil compared to THC. Depending on the terpene, a single constituent makes up 50% of that down to 0.0something%. Let's assume you consume 10 mg THC per dose. That means about 2.5 mg essential oil or 0.something mg for most pure constituents. This is 10'000 to 100'000 times less than in above publication. Most drugs aren't active at such low concentrations/amounts; this is especially true for low-substituted, nitrogen-free monoterpenes.

Due the complexity and the mostly unspecific effects of monoterpenes (for example olfactory stimulation, membrane fluidity) and the frequent variations in their composition (especially relative amounts) between different growing conditions but also between harvests, trial and error might be the only feasible thing to do right now.

CannaBrix · Mar 9, 2015

Only Ornamental said:
Due the complexity and the mostly unspecific effects of monoterpenes (for example olfactory stimulation, membrane fluidity) and the frequent variations in their composition (especially relative amounts) between different growing conditions but also between harvests, trial and error might be the only feasible thing to do right now.

Are you saying there is variation between the composition of specic terpenes? As in limonene one harvest can have a different composition than limonene another harvest? Or the full terpene analysis varies harvest to harvest, even bud to bud?

Sam_Skunkman · Mar 9, 2015

x

CannaBrix said:
But the difference in end product isn't soley in the plant, in either cannabis or grapes. The difference is in the production. Whether that is in the growing or in the processing. For wine that is going from grapes to wine. For cannabis that could be going from fresh to cured product.

Again although the analogy doesn't fit completely, it doesn't matter how many hybrids or plants there are. The end product difference is in the chemical profile of the plant. Which our palates can give us some insight to. But we are limited. There are simply too many variables in cannabis to rely solely on our subjectivity.

It is not intuitive to know that Durban Poison is a great appetite stimulant because of the effect of the combination of .05% CBL and 1.23% myrcene (this is completely fictitious and made up by me on the spot as an example). We couldn't know this until the tests are done.

And then we break away from the fact the only good medicine for appetite stimulation is Durban Poison from Joe's Cannabis Farm from 2013. Now we KNOW good medicine for appetite stimulation has approximately .05% CBL and 1.23% myrcene.

Do you understand that CBL is not produced directly by the plant? Like CBN is a breakdown product of THC, CBL is a breakdown of CBC which the plant can produce. You do not need CBL for good appetite stimulation, THC and the right terpenes will do it easy.
-SamS

And an even larger problem is that my example was done with only TWO of the substances found in cannabis, what about the others and how they play in the mix?

We just can't know this stuff by human trial an error. We have to TRY to set standards.

Fast forward to complete legalization, you don't have to buy the highest THC% strain at the counter cause they say its the 'best'. You can buy the one you like, and because you like it. You don't have to buy the $200 bottle of wine cause it's the 'best'. You can buy the one you like the most even if its $10.

Sam_Skunkman · Mar 9, 2015

Also for the folks suggesting that eaten, oral or injected terpenes have the same modulating effects on smoked or vaped THC, as smoked or vaped terpenes has on smoked or vaped THC, that has not yet been proven as far as I know. I have wondered but have not done it myself.
Smoked or vaped terpenes of the right kind can modulate THC and increase potency.
I would not presume they are active orally for modulating THC.
I did try Ed's stupid idea of eating a mango for Myrcene with Cannabis or THC, zero difference that I could see.
Has anyone tried oral terpenes with pure THC to see if they modulate the THC?
Which terpenes?
Careful as some terpenes should not be eaten......
-SamS

CannaBrix · Mar 9, 2015

Sam_Skunkman said:
Do you understand that CBL is not produced directly by the plant? Like CBN is a breakdown product of THC, CBL is a breakdown of CBC which the plant can produce. You do not need CBL for good appetite stimulation, THC and the right terpenes will do it easy.
-SamS

Sam-

I did not realize this as I wrote my example. I just wanted to put in ANY cannabinoid at ANY percentage as an example. I should've been more specific.

My point was that without testing cannabis flowers, cannabinoid profiles, terpene profiles, whatever else profiles, we can't know with certainty how these chemicals are interacting.

We may (and you may even more) have some information available already. But we definitely do not have all the information available, with all the standards set.

Standards such as which combination of which chemicals interact with each other and with our physiology, as they are activated, as inhaled, as eaten, as topically applied, etc. AND what they do (whether medicinally, or in a recreational sense).

I do have a tendency to split hairs, but I believe this can get REALLY complicated, to the point we may not even be able to truly achieve what I am talking about.

Donn · Mar 9, 2015

Sam_Skunkman said:
Do you understand that CBL is not produced directly by the plant? Like CBN is a breakdown product of THC, CBL is a breakdown of CBC which the plant can produce. You do not need CBL for good appetite stimulation, THC and the right terpenes will do it easy.

I thought CannaBrix was just making all that up as an example of how we could use test data to help connect the dots. My impression is that right now we still have a lot to learn about how it all works, so the more I see on the test report the happier I am.

You're interested in terpenes. Does the Steep Hill fingerprint work for you - linalool, myrcene, alpha-pinene, limonene, beta-caryophyllene? What about beta-pinene, geraniol, nerolidol ... ready to rule those out as proven to be inconsequential?

But it bugs me more, that the "potency" analyses I see report only THC, CBD and CBN. I'd like to see THCV, CBG at least, and maybe the Steep Hill fingerprint is conceptually wrong to put CBL and CBN in there, if they don't have that much to do with "strain" characteristics, but if we were analyzing a retail product from a specific harvest, they might be more interesting.

Only Ornamental · Mar 9, 2015

CannaBrix said:
Are you saying there is variation between the composition of specic terpenes? As in limonene one harvest can have a different composition than limonene another harvest? Or the full terpene analysis varies harvest to harvest, even bud to bud?

AFAIK all aromatic plants (cannabis being one) or rather the 'aromatic principle' in plants (mostly mono- and sesquiterpenes) show a high variability/adaptability in response to the environment (climate, soil, pests etc.). A limonene rich variety is likely always limonene rich but one time it's more, another time less, and the whole profile of volatiles will differ (mostly in relative amounts) rendering standard statistical analyses beyond feasible. The closest thing might be a PCA with or without knowing which component corresponds to which molecule.
Besides, there may be some variation between branches but mostly it's between individuals, 'vintage', 'terroir' etc.

Another thing is the lack of scientifically proven activities and in homo pharmacological effects at achievable concentrations for most monoterpenes. If we can't even theoretically attribute certain constituents to certain illnesses, how could we do that in practice without serious double-blind placebo controlled trials on thousands of patients?

@Sam: Mono- and most sesquiterpenes are readily resorbed when eaten and even applied to the skin, roughly 50% are bioavailable (the rest 'evaporates') and will cross the blood-brain-barrier. Though the AUC is similar (cumulative dose over time), the kinetic is different: it takes more time to achieve maximal plasma concentration which is lower but longer lasting. Combining smoked THC with eaten essential oil will not be the same as the two curves (concentration over time) aren't identical (though, they're pretty similar when applied the same way).

For me, orange and lemon juice brings me down and clears my head (when taken after the 'peak'). Back in my wilder days it was our first aid for 'overdoses' and worked with most of the clique astonishingly well.

I tried the combination of cannabis 'chai' with eaten mango, oranges, and candied ginger, respectively: No difference noticed.

Only Ornamental · Mar 9, 2015

Donn said:
...
But it bugs me more, that the "potency" analyses I see report only THC, CBD and CBN. I'd like to see THCV, CBG at least, and maybe the Steep Hill fingerprint is conceptually wrong to put CBL and CBN in there, if they don't have that much to do with "strain" characteristics, but if we were analyzing a retail product from a specific harvest, they might be more interesting.

THC and CBD are the two major cannabinoids (depending on chemotype) whereas CBN tells you how old and/or how well the sample was stored

. THCV, CBG etc. are usually minor constituents which show less activity (if at all) and I honestly don't see why or who they could influence the effect enough to really change things. Maybe or rather most likely the sum of all the secondary constituents does something but there is no telling how or why, let alone predict anything, with the current technology, programs, and data we currently have (besides, most of these are only used in-house at the big pharma companies).

CannaBrix · Mar 9, 2015

Only Ornamental said:
AFAIK all aromatic plants (cannabis being one) or rather the 'aromatic principle' in plants (mostly mono- and sesquiterpenes) show a high variability/adaptability in response to the environment (climate, soil, pests etc.). A limonene rich variety is likely always limonene rich but one time it's more, another time less, and the whole profile of volatiles will differ (mostly in relative amounts) rendering standard statistical analyses beyond feasible. The closest thing might be a PCA with or without knowing which component corresponds to which molecule.
Besides, there may be some variation between branches but mostly it's between individuals, 'vintage', 'terroir' etc.

Another thing is the lack of scientifically proven activities and in homo pharmacological effects at achievable concentrations for most monoterpenes. If we can't even theoretically attribute certain constituents to certain illnesses, how could we do that in practice without serious double-blind placebo controlled trials on thousands of patients?

OO-

So then it is too complex at this point. At least medicinally.

But as a tool for a grower / breeder, analysis of the chemical profiles can still be VERY useful.

Knowing that subjectively I think a certain strain or plant has a certain effect or taste, a breeder can breed for a ranged chemical profile, or a grower can grow for the same.

You are right though, medically we are FAR out from my vision of standards.

Only Ornamental · Mar 9, 2015

We even struggle when dealing with 'simpler' plants than cannabis... maybe one day...

But you're right, testing is a helpful breeding tool. Even if there's not too much to gain right now with terpene profiles for medicinal cannabis, the vast data created might one day become enough to do something great with it.

Donn · Mar 9, 2015

My own very limited experience is that Durban Poison has a distinctive psychoactivity, and what stands out about it on its "fingerprint" is ca. 1% THCV, order of magnitude more than usual. I'm not saying I know that's what happened, just that I would hate to see it left off the charts. CBG I don't have any clue.

If we're talking about growers getting the full report - so, while they might still just put the same THC/THCA/CBD on the package, you can get the whole report somewhere, for this harvest -- would CBN and CBL be related to harvest & curing at all? I'm wondering if these levels are stable to some degree, or if on the contrary they're purely age related so there's no point at all in publishing them? Curiously CBN is the one "other" cannabinoid that appears in the SC potency analysis.

CannaBrix · Mar 9, 2015

Only Ornamental said:
We even struggle when dealing with 'simpler' plants than cannabis... maybe one day...

But you're right, testing is a helpful breeding tool. Even if there's not too much to gain right now with terpene profiles for medicinal cannabis, the vast data created might one day become enough to do something great with it.

Exactly. It's one of those issues (if all issues aren't this way) that is just on the fence. There is no black and white, plenty of gray and plenty of shades.

Testing isn't the end all be all, but it is and can be useful.

Just like GMO's aren't inherently wrong. Feminized seeds aren't inherently wrong. Polyhybrids. BHO. Pesticide use.

All these things are bashed one way or the other, and never seem to sit in the middle.

Sam_Skunkman · Mar 9, 2015

I have tried THCV both pure and with pure THC, THCV does not get you high, and is more like VBD in that it delays onset, reduces peak experiences of THC, you do not want it for recreational use it is a THC antagonist. I introduced S African Durban Poison in the 70's, in California, I know it well.
-SamS

Donn said:
My own very limited experience is that Durban Poison has a distinctive psychoactivity, and what stands out about it on its "fingerprint" is ca. 1% THCV, order of magnitude more than usual. I'm not saying I know that's what happened, just that I would hate to see it left off the charts. CBG I don't have any clue.

If we're talking about growers getting the full report - so, while they might still just put the same THC/THCA/CBD on the package, you can get the whole report somewhere, for this harvest -- would CBN and CBL be related to harvest & curing at all? I'm wondering if these levels are stable to some degree, or if on the contrary they're purely age related so there's no point at all in publishing them? Curiously CBN is the one "other" cannabinoid that appears in the SC potency analysis.

Sam_Skunkman · Mar 9, 2015

When we tested THC levels in Cannabis buds stored at room temps, all the THC was in the acid form and almost zero CBN, harvest and curing do not convert much THC to CBN. We tested the samples every month for two years, and did not see CBN until the end.
-SamS

Siskiyou Sam · Mar 9, 2015

Donn said:
Not to change the subject, but ... apparently a 6oz glass of orange juice has 5mg of limonene. It really comes from the rind, so it all depends on how juice got squeezed out, how long it sat around, etc., but it looks to me like an order of magnitude more than you'd ever get in a dose of cannabis. If it doesn't matter how it gets into the system, would some juice or a couple kumquats make the weed limonene irrelevant?

I thought your question was interesting so I ran it by my MD. buddy, apparently the rout to the brain is so different there is no comparison. One route goes through high temps and into the lungs to get into the blood, the other way is through the liver, where it is metabolized. So it does matter how it gets into the system.

Scrutinizing Strains with Science : An Objective Discussion

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