Soil-less Organics with Professor Matt Rize - Organic Hydro - International Cannagraphic Magazine Forums

Matt Rize · 10-23-2010, 10:12 PM

This is part of a larger lesson, so may seem out of context.

"What does Organic Soil-less Mean? And Why Do We Use Molasses? Part 1

Molasses is commonly used by medical Cannabis gardeners, indoors and outside. The use of molasses is highly controversial on the ganja forums. We all agree that molasses is great for brewing ACTs and AACTs (Active Aerated Compost Teas). Molasses use, beyond food source for microbes in teas, is still a debate.

Old school outdoor organic folks grow in the ground, or in an aged and conditioned True Soil. These folk are wise, but often limited in regards to advanced indoor soil-less cultivation. The old school growers claim "molasses has no affect at all on yield or flavor". They may be correct with regard to their style of growing. We'll get to that soon.

Most of us, the medical Cannabis cultivators, cultivate our medicine indoors for various reasons. We use something that is called an "organic soil-less" media in our pots (containers).
To understand how molasses is used indoors we must understand a few things.

1) What is a "soil-less" media?
2) Why is everyone using soil-less instead of soil?
3) And how does soil-less media affect beneficial soil life and the soil-food-web (organics)?
then...
4) What is molasses?
5) What are root exudates?
6) What does molasses do in a soil-less media?
7) Possible downside to using molasses...?
8) Do you use molasses during the flush?

1) What is an Organic Soil-less media:

Growing plants in containers without soil can be split into two categories.

A) True Hydroponics, aka liquid culture: A nutrient solution is recirculated with food (usually synthetic) and this feeds the roots to make our precious flowers.
B) True Soil-less, aka aggregate culture : A nutrient solution is supplied to plants by watering through the media, and either drained-to-waste, or reused.

Soil-less grow media has often been called hydroponics. But that is not exactly correct. Nutri-culture has been suggested to be a more accurate term for various forms of soil-less growing. And soil-less growing itself is separated into: Inorganic Media and Organic Media. Inorganic Media is also farther separated into Natural Media and Synthetic Media.

THE MEDIAS EXPLAINED:

True Hydroponics: circulating solutions, aeroponics, static solutions

Aggregate System -> Inorganic Media (Hydroponics) -> Natural Media: sand, gravel, rockwool, perlite, vermiculite, pumice, expanded clay.

Aggregate System -> Inorganic Media (Hydroponics) -> Synthetic Media: oasis, hydrogel, foam mats (PET) and (PUR)

Aggregate System -> Organic Media: Peat, Sawdust, Bark, Cocofiber (the non-soil dirts).

So I am growing in an Organic Media, mostly peat, coco, and bark. But the majority of indoor growers are using perlite, which would technically make that media a combination of soil-less organic media and soil-less inorganic natural media. BOOM.

Matt Rize · 10-23-2010, 10:14 PM

"Soil-less Growing Media Explained Part 2: Why Use Soil-less?

The short answer is simple preference. The long answer is much more controversial. Here we go.

IMO soil-less organic media with soil-less inorganic natural media are ideal for advanced indoor gardens.

Here are my reasons:

a. Water Retention: Soil-less literally/practically means lower water retention in comparison to true soil. By having lower water retention we can feed more often, which is important when relying primarily on liquid/powdered plant food. Faster wet/dry cycles may speed up the overall life-cycle, a common claim of hydro growers.

b. Perlite: This goes back to water retention. The soil-less community loves perlite, although personally I am attempting to give it up completely for reason's related to my grow ideals. My mom and grandma explained to me the importance of perlite for container plants. Some plants need it, some don't, ganja LOVES it. In containers perlite helps fight soil compaction... but watering gently and slowly does as well.

c. Coco/Peat/Bark: These are the popular soil-less organic choices, although I'm not sure as to the proper label for the amendments. ie rice hulls, small sticks, EWC, and compost. These natural and organic products are great for growing Cannabis. pH seems to be the major issue in these products, as their buffering capacity is generally less than true soil.

Coco/Peat/Bark are extremely common for growing Cannabis. In fact, around here the majority of indoor gardens are soil-less organics. The common Cannabis designed potting mixes that most indoor folks use: Ocean Forest, Happy Frog, Promix, Sunshine, Roots Organics, Light Warrior, Bio Terra Plus, Humboldt Nutrients mix... these are all technically a combination of soil-less organics (peat or coco plus other stuff) and soil-less inorganic natural media (perlite). Of exception is the Bio Terra Plus which is actually just soil-less organic as it contains no perlite.

d. Control: By not having food in slow release form you are in control over what the plant gets. It is then your job to "read and feed" your plants. This really gives you the opportunity to learn what your plants use (food) and when they use it (stage of life cycle). This also lets you push your plants to the max while keeping it organic.

e. Chlorosis: Advanced chlorosis at harvest may lead to smoother smoking flowers. Soil-less media has no slow release food, so Nitrogen must be provided or the plants instantly yellow. This is true until two weeks from harvest for all soil-less organics. Once the N is cut the green is literally sucked from the plant, by design for soil-less organics. This means the freshly dried herb will have a jump start on the curing process. The chlorophyll is consumed by the plant. This reveals the secondary pigments already present in the leaves and flowers but buried in a sea of cholorphyll. Secondary pigments (not green) include: purple, blue, lime green, red, orange, gold, and other light green colors.

Here goes the numbers for Bio Terra Plus. This is a super heavy (high water retention) soil-less media because it has no perlite.

Organic matter min 75% of gross product
Electrical Conductivity: 1.1-1.3mS/cm
pH (H2O): 5.5-6.5
Water Retention: 7.1 (gms per gm of organic matter)
__________________
Matt Rize - Cannasseur for Life

trichrider · 10-23-2010, 10:39 PM

very good start matt...tagged.

cyat · 10-23-2010, 11:21 PM

Matt,
According to Michael Martin Melendres(owner of soil secrets) , molasses causes anerobic conditions in the soil.This is the guy who coined the term "soil food web." He works with a high tech goverment testing facility in New Mexico.He told me elaine inghams lab is a joke.I know she endorses denali gold alaska humus, and he told me that this nothing more than peat moss(I agree.)He has also tested subculture for gh and said that this product has no real biology,and you can get the same bacteria free from the air.He is against compost teas with molasses as the sugars cause a candida like environment.I know this will heat up alot of people , but I tend to agree with him from my experience.He more advocates adding compost to the soil.Think about this, molasses in hydro = slime and root rot, it can affect soil/soilless the same way.I've used molasses and teas a lot and feel teas can be good if in balance, but I do not use molasses anymore.Too much molasses in water causes bacteria too flourish and use up the oxygen causing an anaerobic environment , same thing in soilless.Also it (IMHO) doecsnt make herb sweeter, or make more trichomes.It feeds bacteria and adds some minerals.I also think mixing coco with peat works but it reacts more like soil than staight coco.Ive tried both and find straight coco (not mushy coco like canna) to give the best root growth, and oxygen rich environment.

Matt Rize · 10-24-2010, 01:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyat

Matt,
According to Michael Martin Melendres(owner of soil secrets) , molasses causes anerobic conditions in the soil.This is the guy who coined the term "soil food web." He works with a high tech goverment testing facility in New Mexico.He told me elaine inghams lab is a joke.I know she endorses denali gold alaska humus, and he told me that this nothing more than peat moss(I agree.)

Opinions do vary on this topic. Thanks for contributing. You have missed the whole soil-less part though, and that this thread is about soil-less organics first and molasses is secondary.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyat

He has also tested subculture for gh and said that this product has no real biology,and you can get the same bacteria free from the air.

Not a big fan of GH or GO. BUT saying that it has "no real biology" and then that "you can get the same bacteria from the air" is somewhat contradictory. I've never used GH inoculants.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyat

Matt,
According to Michael Martin Melendres(owner of soil secrets) , molasses causes anerobic conditions in the soil.This is the guy who coined the term "soil food web." He works with a high tech goverment testing facility in New Mexico.He told me elaine inghams lab is a joke.I know she endorses denali gold alaska humus, and he told me that this nothing more than peat moss(I agree.)

Opinions do vary on this topic. Thanks for contributing. You have missed the whole soil-less part though, and that this thread is about soil-less organics and molasses.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyat

He is against compost teas with molasses as the sugars cause a candida like environment.I know this will heat up alot of people , but I tend to agree with him from my experience.He more advocates adding compost to the soil.Think about this, molasses in hydro = slime and root rot, it can affect soil/soilless the same way.

Long time molasses user with NO SLIME EVER right here... your point fails here. The microbes eat the carbs and other stuff present in the molasses. There is practically nothing left over. Molasses post is coming up in two posts!

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyat

I've used molasses and teas a lot and feel teas can be good if in balance, but I do not use molasses anymore.Too much molasses in water causes bacteria too flourish and use up the oxygen causing an anaerobic environment , same thing in soilless.

Agreed about the hazards of using too much molasses, but that only applies to ids, seriously. Good point about bacteria vs fungi in teas. Molasses feeds the bacteria, not the fungi... MUCH MORE ON THIS COMING UP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyat

Also it (IMHO) doecsnt make herb sweeter, or make more trichomes.It feeds bacteria and adds some minerals.I also think mixing coco with peat works but it reacts more like soil than staight coco.Ive tried both and find straight coco (not mushy coco like canna) to give the best root growth, and oxygen rich environment.

Agreed, molasses is not a sweetener, only ids think that. BUT molasses is a quality nutrient and carb source for beneficial bacteria. Interesting point you bring up about coco and peat together "reacting more like soil" than either alone. MUCH MORE ON THIS COMING UP. Thanks for contributing!

10-25-2010, 04:00 PM

Why is this topic in three different forums?

Matt Rize · 10-25-2010, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by staff11

Why is this topic in three different forums?

Because there is no soil-less forum, and my requests for one have been ignored. The soil organics folks said i could post there, and the hydro organics folks said i could post there. THE FACT is that this thread related to both soil and hydro.

WHERE IS THE SOIL-LESS FORUM? THE MAJORITY OF INDOOR GROWERS RUN SOIL-LESS ORGANIC MEDIA!

10-25-2010, 05:59 PM

If you think peat is absent of any living microbial activity, you need to learn a bit more..... Plenty of studies that show just the opposite.

look I understand what you are trying to do here but three different forums and one topic? lol

10-25-2010, 06:09 PM

spam.
TOU say only one post
your request are ignored because you are a n00b here.
much your data is incorrect, anyone can cut and paste.
That does not make you a so called Professor. got your Doctorate?
and like you state

Quote:

Opinions do vary

soiless belongs in the Hydro section.

MrFista · 10-25-2010, 08:56 PM

Molasses is a bad idea in hydro. Even aquaponics. A biofilm must be kept trim and taut when in use for microbial processing excess carbohydrates will cause anaerobic conditions in untenable positions. Basically the root exudates is all the carbs you want in the root system.

Finding molasses in products doesn't mean it's good for hydro it means it's a cheap filler for expensive bottles.

If you want root rot, follow the professors advice.

Quote "These folk are wise, but often limited in regards to advanced indoor soil-less cultivation"

ROFL - well show us your advanced ideas then professor you've spouted nothing new in your entire prolonged and long winded visit.

10-23-2010, 10:12 PM	#1
Matt Rize Banned Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Cali Posts: 307	Soil-less Organics with Professor Matt Rize This is part of a larger lesson, so may seem out of context. "What does Organic Soil-less Mean? And Why Do We Use Molasses? Part 1 Molasses is commonly used by medical Cannabis gardeners, indoors and outside. The use of molasses is highly controversial on the ganja forums. We all agree that molasses is great for brewing ACTs and AACTs (Active Aerated Compost Teas). Molasses use, beyond food source for microbes in teas, is still a debate. Old school outdoor organic folks grow in the ground, or in an aged and conditioned True Soil. These folk are wise, but often limited in regards to advanced indoor soil-less cultivation. The old school growers claim "molasses has no affect at all on yield or flavor". They may be correct with regard to their style of growing. We'll get to that soon. Most of us, the medical Cannabis cultivators, cultivate our medicine indoors for various reasons. We use something that is called an "organic soil-less" media in our pots (containers). To understand how molasses is used indoors we must understand a few things. 1) What is a "soil-less" media? 2) Why is everyone using soil-less instead of soil? 3) And how does soil-less media affect beneficial soil life and the soil-food-web (organics)? then... 4) What is molasses? 5) What are root exudates? 6) What does molasses do in a soil-less media? 7) Possible downside to using molasses...? 8) Do you use molasses during the flush? 1) What is an Organic Soil-less media: Growing plants in containers without soil can be split into two categories. A) True Hydroponics, aka liquid culture: A nutrient solution is recirculated with food (usually synthetic) and this feeds the roots to make our precious flowers. B) True Soil-less, aka aggregate culture : A nutrient solution is supplied to plants by watering through the media, and either drained-to-waste, or reused. Soil-less grow media has often been called hydroponics. But that is not exactly correct. Nutri-culture has been suggested to be a more accurate term for various forms of soil-less growing. And soil-less growing itself is separated into: Inorganic Media and Organic Media. Inorganic Media is also farther separated into Natural Media and Synthetic Media. THE MEDIAS EXPLAINED: True Hydroponics: circulating solutions, aeroponics, static solutions Aggregate System -> Inorganic Media (Hydroponics) -> Natural Media: sand, gravel, rockwool, perlite, vermiculite, pumice, expanded clay. Aggregate System -> Inorganic Media (Hydroponics) -> Synthetic Media: oasis, hydrogel, foam mats (PET) and (PUR) Aggregate System -> Organic Media: Peat, Sawdust, Bark, Cocofiber (the non-soil dirts). So I am growing in an Organic Media, mostly peat, coco, and bark. But the majority of indoor growers are using perlite, which would technically make that media a combination of soil-less organic media and soil-less inorganic natural media. BOOM. Last edited by Matt Rize; 10-26-2010 at 09:23 AM..
	1 members found this post helpful.

10-23-2010, 10:14 PM	#2
Matt Rize Banned Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Cali Posts: 307	Soil-less Part 2: Why Use Soil-less? "Soil-less Growing Media Explained Part 2: Why Use Soil-less? The short answer is simple preference. The long answer is much more controversial. Here we go. IMO soil-less organic media with soil-less inorganic natural media are ideal for advanced indoor gardens. Here are my reasons: a. Water Retention: Soil-less literally/practically means lower water retention in comparison to true soil. By having lower water retention we can feed more often, which is important when relying primarily on liquid/powdered plant food. Faster wet/dry cycles may speed up the overall life-cycle, a common claim of hydro growers. b. Perlite: This goes back to water retention. The soil-less community loves perlite, although personally I am attempting to give it up completely for reason's related to my grow ideals. My mom and grandma explained to me the importance of perlite for container plants. Some plants need it, some don't, ganja LOVES it. In containers perlite helps fight soil compaction... but watering gently and slowly does as well. c. Coco/Peat/Bark: These are the popular soil-less organic choices, although I'm not sure as to the proper label for the amendments. ie rice hulls, small sticks, EWC, and compost. These natural and organic products are great for growing Cannabis. pH seems to be the major issue in these products, as their buffering capacity is generally less than true soil. Coco/Peat/Bark are extremely common for growing Cannabis. In fact, around here the majority of indoor gardens are soil-less organics. The common Cannabis designed potting mixes that most indoor folks use: Ocean Forest, Happy Frog, Promix, Sunshine, Roots Organics, Light Warrior, Bio Terra Plus, Humboldt Nutrients mix... these are all technically a combination of soil-less organics (peat or coco plus other stuff) and soil-less inorganic natural media (perlite). Of exception is the Bio Terra Plus which is actually just soil-less organic as it contains no perlite. d. Control: By not having food in slow release form you are in control over what the plant gets. It is then your job to "read and feed" your plants. This really gives you the opportunity to learn what your plants use (food) and when they use it (stage of life cycle). This also lets you push your plants to the max while keeping it organic. e. Chlorosis: Advanced chlorosis at harvest may lead to smoother smoking flowers. Soil-less media has no slow release food, so Nitrogen must be provided or the plants instantly yellow. This is true until two weeks from harvest for all soil-less organics. Once the N is cut the green is literally sucked from the plant, by design for soil-less organics. This means the freshly dried herb will have a jump start on the curing process. The chlorophyll is consumed by the plant. This reveals the secondary pigments already present in the leaves and flowers but buried in a sea of cholorphyll. Secondary pigments (not green) include: purple, blue, lime green, red, orange, gold, and other light green colors. Here goes the numbers for Bio Terra Plus. This is a super heavy (high water retention) soil-less media because it has no perlite. Organic matter min 75% of gross product Electrical Conductivity: 1.1-1.3mS/cm pH (H2O): 5.5-6.5 Water Retention: 7.1 (gms per gm of organic matter) __________________ Matt Rize - Cannasseur for Life Last edited by JJScorpio; 10-25-2010 at 01:28 AM..
	2 members found this post helpful.

10-23-2010, 10:39 PM	#3
trichrider THEORETICAL Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: between CB1 and the singularity. Posts: 7,046	very good start matt...tagged. __________________ "I'm not always a dick...but when I am, I drink cheap beer".
	1 members found this post helpful.

10-23-2010, 11:21 PM	#4
cyat Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 1,941	Matt, According to Michael Martin Melendres(owner of soil secrets) , molasses causes anerobic conditions in the soil.This is the guy who coined the term "soil food web." He works with a high tech goverment testing facility in New Mexico.He told me elaine inghams lab is a joke.I know she endorses denali gold alaska humus, and he told me that this nothing more than peat moss(I agree.)He has also tested subculture for gh and said that this product has no real biology,and you can get the same bacteria free from the air.He is against compost teas with molasses as the sugars cause a candida like environment.I know this will heat up alot of people , but I tend to agree with him from my experience.He more advocates adding compost to the soil.Think about this, molasses in hydro = slime and root rot, it can affect soil/soilless the same way.I've used molasses and teas a lot and feel teas can be good if in balance, but I do not use molasses anymore.Too much molasses in water causes bacteria too flourish and use up the oxygen causing an anaerobic environment , same thing in soilless.Also it (IMHO) doecsnt make herb sweeter, or make more trichomes.It feeds bacteria and adds some minerals.I also think mixing coco with peat works but it reacts more like soil than staight coco.Ive tried both and find straight coco (not mushy coco like canna) to give the best root growth, and oxygen rich environment.
	2 members found this post helpful.

10-25-2010, 04:00 PM	#6
staff11 Guest Posts: n/a	Why is this topic in three different forums?
	1 members found this post helpful.

10-25-2010, 05:59 PM	#8
staff11 Guest Posts: n/a	If you think peat is absent of any living microbial activity, you need to learn a bit more..... Plenty of studies that show just the opposite. look I understand what you are trying to do here but three different forums and one topic? lol

10-25-2010, 08:56 PM	#10
MrFista Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 1,036	Molasses is a bad idea in hydro. Even aquaponics. A biofilm must be kept trim and taut when in use for microbial processing excess carbohydrates will cause anaerobic conditions in untenable positions. Basically the root exudates is all the carbs you want in the root system. Finding molasses in products doesn't mean it's good for hydro it means it's a cheap filler for expensive bottles. If you want root rot, follow the professors advice. Quote "These folk are wise, but often limited in regards to advanced indoor soil-less cultivation" ROFL - well show us your advanced ideas then professor you've spouted nothing new in your entire prolonged and long winded visit. __________________ I'm in it for the tomatoes. I been growing tomatoes for a long long time. Sometimes I get to thinking I know everything about tomatoes. My tomatoes make me completely delusional.