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[Gerrit]

Hi Sipmok,

I’ve only studied this phenomenon among Warlock males so I can’t be 100% sure, but I think all males are capable of producing female flowers when exposed to certain environmental pressure/conditions.
In case of the Warlock I am pretty sure all males can, because so far I have not found any that would not.
Some times a first attempt wasn’t 100% successful but second attempts with the same plants where, so I blame the failed attempts on inadequate environmental pressure cq technique.
It seems to me that the low light and maybe some additional stress was enough to trigger your friends DD males into producing some female flowers as well.

I partly disagree with DJ’s conclusions as I.M.O. the fact that the ability to produce resin is most noticeable on “reversed” males, doesn’t necessarily imply that a “non reversed” male doesn't carry the desired genes.
As an example: a potential potent/resinous female plant in veg will hardly show any resin, but that does not mean it does not carry the genes that are responsible for that trait.
So for that reason I would never compare a “reversed” to a “non reversed” male.
It does however offer a nice “tool” to select for resin content, terpene profile etc. if you compare/select from males that are all “reversed”.

Quote: “This trait almost seems to guarantee against unwanted hermaphroditism in subsequent generations as it also increases the female to male ratio in its progeny."

I must again point out that my experience is limited to Warlock males only, but I have found no proof or confirming results during my observations for the statement/theory above.
The sex ratio is 50/50 in all my regular varieties (all coming from Warlock males except Biddy’s Sister) and hermaphrodites (or monocious individuals for the purists among us) have been found and/or reported as well, although very rare.

To answer your question if he should use the males for breeding or not, I don’t see why the “reversal” should be reason to reject them, but the fact that they are full siblings and F1 does (in theory) not make them the best choice for a breeding program.

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Originally Posted by Gerrit

Hi Sipmok,

I’ve only studied this phenomenon among Warlock males so I can’t be 100% sure, but I think all males are capable of producing female flowers when exposed to certain environmental pressure/conditions.
In case of the Warlock I am pretty sure all males can, because so far I have not found any that would not.
Some times a first attempt wasn’t 100% successful but second attempts with the same plants where, so I blame the failed attempts on inadequate environmental pressure cq technique.
It seems to me that the low light and maybe some additional stress was enough to trigger your friends DD males into producing some female flowers as well.

I partly disagree with DJ’s conclusions as I.M.O. the fact that the ability to produce resin is most noticeable on “reversed” males, doesn’t necessarily imply that a “non reversed” male doesn't carry the desired genes.
As an example: a potential potent/resinous female plant in veg will hardly show any resin, but that does not mean it does not carry the genes that are responsible for that trait.
So for that reason I would never compare a “reversed” to a “non reversed” male.
It does however offer a nice “tool” to select for resin content, terpene profile etc. if you compare/select from males that are all “reversed”.

Quote: “This trait almost seems to guarantee against unwanted hermaphroditism in subsequent generations as it also increases the female to male ratio in its progeny."

I must again point out that my experience is limited to Warlock males only, but I have found no proof or confirming results during my observations for the statement/theory above.
The sex ratio is 50/50 in all my regular varieties (all coming from Warlock males except Biddy’s Sister) and hermaphrodites (or monocious individuals for the purists among us) have been found and/or reported as well, although very rare.

To answer your question if he should use the males for breeding or not, I don’t see why the “reversal” should be reason to reject them, but the fact that they are full siblings and F1 does (in theory) not make them the best choice for a breeding program.

Greeting Gerrit,

I have found these so called reverse hermie males mostly within Populations of BOGS work. I did some test with them and did find a higher percentage of females and herms.. I put this down to the liklihood that the males weren't males in the truest sense and IMO were more likely some with more x genes.. these plants did not need to be induced though it was prev without dropping temps... so perhaps a dif between one that needs inducing and one that doesn't.

Kopite

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[Gerrit]

Hi Kopite,

Thanks for the input, very interesting.
It seems that we all 3 (DJ and us 2) have seen different results from the same or similar experiments, would that not be more reason to assume that sexual instability in males is not related to or controlled by the same genes as sexual instability in females?

If I understand you right you had just a few males that showed female flowers so you might have more options to experiment than I had as all my males do with the right pressure, but none of them “spontaneously.
This raises some interest/questions by me so I hope you can answer.

Did you find any female hermaphrodites among the original BOG seeds?
Have you tried crossing both types of males with the same female and if so, did the offspring from the “stable” male show less female hermaphrodites than those coming from the “instable” male?

Also, (if I understand well) you consider/assume there is some sort of threshold in determine sex, as you noticed an upward shift in both, female and (I’ll assume female) hermaphrodites.
What I don’t grasp is that when one assumes instability in both sexes is linked, how it could also increase the amount of (stable) females in it’s offspring, do you have a theory about this?

The way I look at it it’s all functioning independently, there are genes that determine gender/sex but there are environmental conditions that can interfere with the “control/signal system”.
On top of that, there are many different forms of environmental pressure that can have an impact, and plants can vary in their sensitivity to them as well, so what seems like a “spontaneous” reaction might just be a reaction to pressure that is less obvious and not as common as a reaction to for example irregular light cycles. (Which does not make it any less unwanted though)

The sensitivity to environmental pressure is genetic so some are more stable than others, but there is no such thing as a true female or true male (i.m.o.).
Also a “reversal” (environmental and/or chemically induced) on both female and male will make the plant produce flowers of “the opposite” sex, but according to my own observations there are other sex-linked traits that will stay true to the original/default sex.
For example a reversed male will still have the stretched and open flower formation or bud shape as well as that the female will remain its tight flower formation.

For that reason I strongly believe that there is a “normal” x/y system at play but it’s combined with an instable signaling/control system.
It’s possible that there is a genetic controlled sensitivity that acts up in both sexes, but if so, I still don’t get how it could increase the female rate as well as Hermaphrodism.

As said earlier, my experience is limited to Warlock males so I can’t rule out much.
But I can say with confidence that using a male that is able to reverse, does not by definition lead to an increase of hermaphrodites or females in it’s offspring.

I’m sure Kopite will realize, but to anyone else who’s reading and does not:
Please note that the matter of sexual expression in cannabis is rather complex to say the least and I’m having a hard time getting even a minor grasp of it.
It’s even more difficult to put my thoughts into (English) words so I hope the above still makes any sense.
It’s sure not meant to be seen as actual science or facts, they’re just my thoughts and considerations, nothing more.

@ Sipmok,

I have followed the link to page 7 but don’t see exactly what made you decide to kill the males.
What arguments where strong enough to go against your own experience?
As you’ve already stated that non of the females showed intersex traits although they are the offspring of a male that can be induced to form female flowers.

Regards,
Gerrit

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[Gerrit]

Hi Sipmok,

That is sort of what I meant to say, if there is no consensus on the matter, would it not be more logic to follow your own (limited I'll admit) observations?

According to your own observations, the female DD's that are the offspring of a (Warlock) male that can be induced to reverse, did not show cross-gender traits.
So although this does not completely rule out the possibility that using a (potentially/inducible) intersex male will lead to an increased number of intersex females in the offspring, it most certainly does not confirm this theory.

I thought, or maybe even feared for a moment you had found a post which contained a clear/logic theory on the subject, or even a science paper which convinced you that (induced) intersex or instability in a male is a trait that should be selected against. (where possible)
I have not seen any yet, and have found no reason for it in my own results either.

But....., as Kopite already pointed out, it could also be that there are different types, some that do, and some that don't need to be induced, and that the "spontaneous" ones do have an impact on female stability.

I do not doubt Kopite his observations, I just wonder if it could be possible that the bog line carried both, male and female intersex.
In that case he might have observed a link that wasn't really there.
I don't say that the above is what happened, just throwing out a theory which reduces the conflict between Kopite's and my observations/logic.

About your own ponder, since you where only aiming at doing some crossing to play with, I see no reason not to.
Hell, although it will be small scale, given the fact there is no consensus on this I'm sure not only Kopite and me, but many others would follow your results with interest.
You said you wanted to cross it with several different females so it could give (a tiny bit) more insight.
Hé hé, you might not be a breeder, but maybe you can teach/show them some

lastly, a few more questions.

The males suffered from low light conditions, would that be a window sill?
What light cycle are they getting at the moment, 12/12, 18/6, or other?

Thanks,
Gerrit

PS. I have never seen it on a DD because I never bothered flowering a male, they get culled as soon as they show sex as they have little to no value to me.

Hi both,

I will be back ltr with my reply but its a bit long so have to put it on word first as I've typed it twice and lost it !!!

"reversed" when i said it in my earlier post, I'm using it in the DJ sense ie a plant that has not been treated with hormones etc but a spontaneous showing of pistils in stamens... I do not feel theres anything wrong with the hormonal reversal of a male or female..

my reason for going into this, is that a thought at first this sort of plant could produce YY plants if allowed to self as you see with asparagus but the results didn't show this.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=133853

back soon

Kopite

[Gerrit]

Thanks Kopite,

I did follow the link but could not find any test results that ruled out the possibility of an yy male, maybe it was in one of the links posted in the linked thread?

Selfing a male with viable seeds as a result is not an easy task (at least not for me) and testing them as potential yy takes even more time & effort,
so I'm not surprised it hasn't been found yet, even if it does exist.
I might even spend the rest of my life searching for it, not ever finding out if it exists or not.
But I do hope so, as finding one is the closest thing to having a conclusive result possible i.m.o.

So far I got no further than producing a limited amount of seeds that where healthy enough to grow into a plant.
I have also produced a few batches of seeds with one s1 male but these are yet to be evaluated.
I would need to be very lucky hitting at first strike but I'll let you know if the offspring is all male.

But even if I grow and test a hundred s1 males and find non that produce 100% male offspring (stable or not), I still can't rule out the theoretical possibility of an yy male. (i.m.o.)
As said I've had a lot of difficulty getting the selfed male to produce a decent amount of viable seeds, so it's also possible that the yy combination does exist, but is a lethal combination and can't be found among the viable seeds.

I'm sorry to hear you've lost your post/reply, very annoying when that happens, especially if a lot of time and effort went into it.

"reversed" when i said it in my earlier post, I'm using it in the DJ sense ie a plant that has not been treated with hormones etc but a spontaneous showing of pistils in stamens... I do not feel theres anything wrong with the hormonal reversal of a male or female..

In case this wasn't clear, the "reversed" males that I've used/experienced where non of the above.
They where not spontaneous but induced by environmental pressure, not hormonal (or at least not directly).

Gerrit