Botanicare lacking sulfur in PBP?

I was reading the labels on my PBP bottles and noticed that out of PBP Grow, PBP Soil Bloom, CalMag+, and Liquid Karma that none of these listed any sulfur at all in the guaranteed analysis. PBP, along with CalMag and LK are supposed to be the base for this nute lineup.

Is this just Botanicare's way of geting people to buy yet another bottle (Sweet, mainly just MgSO4) just to get a balanced nute regimen? And also, I read somewhere here on IC that terpine's are sulfur based and that their production is related to a healthy intake of sulfur. Could this explain a finished product that doesn't smell as strong as it could if Sweet (or some other source of sulfur) was not used? I also use Hydroplex for a bloom booster and that has some sulfur listed in its analysis, but my flowers just don't smell as strong as I feel they ought to.

Any thoughts?

Any thoughts?

If your buds don't stink like you think they should it's more likely that its a genetic thing. Some strains just don't smell that much. Sulfur will probably help, but don't expect night and day differences by any means.

You're probably right about botanicare not putting sulfur in PBP so you have to buy another bottle. I think some Epsom salt and molasses would do the same thing for a lot less money. Or if you really want to spend some money, there is always bud candy lol.

I use Floracorps Nutri+ line, and noticed the same results after analysing the nutrient levels.
No sulphur content.

Plants can grab sulphur from the atmosphere.
But is it enough?
I do not know.
I do add a little bit of epsom salts to boost my sulphur content in the soil.

I believe Nutri+ is trying to almost copy-cat AN on many products or theories. especially their newer products.
Does AN even use sulphur?
Bud Candy does not state sulphur content.

GH's 1 part bloom has a whopping 2% sulphur.

I also use Grotek CocoJuice on my patio pepper plants.
It only contains 1-1-1 & 0.1 Calcium.
They are happy plants.

I see sulfur in all of botanicares other main lines. Now i don't run organics so im not sure but i am the thinking that sulfur is a byproduct of organic nutrient break down. Anyone know?

As far as smell and flavor? This is mostly about selecting the right genetics. Beyond that, finishing them properly and maintaining top plant health will allow you to achieve the maximum smell and flavor contained in your genetic profile. The most effective products to help this are the cheapest (molasses or sucrat).

Im still curious about this sulphur issue.... anyone know?

The Pure Blend Pro series doesnt list S (or much of anything). That doesnt mean it is not there, just that they choose not to list it.

ShroomDr said:

(Botanicare Labels)
Botanicare Pure Blend Pro Grow (3-2-4) Mg.5% Ca1%
4360g/3800mL = 1.147g/mL
@10mL/Gal
N 91
P 26
K 101
Mg 15
Ca 30
Derived from: Fish Meal, Composted Seabird Guano, Kelp, Rock Phosphate, Potassium Carbonate, Magnesium Carbonate, Calcium Carbonate. 0.2% Humic acid derived from leonardite.


Botanicare Pure Blend Pro Bloom Hydro (2-3-5) Mg.5% Ca1%
4360g/3800mL = 1.147g/mL
@10mL/Gal
N 61
P 40
K 126
Mg 15
Ca 30
Derived from: Fish Meal, Composted Seabird Guano, Kelp, Rock Phosphate, Potassium Carbonate, Magnesium Carbonate, Calcium Carbonate. 0.15% Humic acid derived from leonardite.


Botanicare Pure Blend Pro Bloom Soil And Coco (1-4-5) Mg.5% Ca1%
4360g/3800mL = 1.147g/mL
@10mL/Gal
N 30
P 55
K 126
Mg 15
Ca 30
Derived from: Fish Meal, Composted Seabird Guano, Kelp, Rock Phosphate, Potassium Carbonate, Magnesium Carbonate, Calcium Carbonate. 0.35% Humic acid derived from leonardite.

Click to expand...

The CNS17 series does a little better with the labels, although they left the S% off of the 'Grow' bottle.

Botanicare CNS17 Hydro Grow (3-2-4) (NH4).14% (NO3)2.86% Mg.5% Ca2.8% S1.1% Mn.05% Mo.0005%
4360g/3800mL = 1.147g/mL
@10mL/Gal
N 91
P 26
K 101
Mg 15
Ca 85
S 33
Mn 1.5
Mo 0.015
Derived from: Calcium Nitrate, Mono Potassium Phosphate, Magnesium Sulfate, Potassium Nitrate, Manganese Sulfate, Ammonium Molybdate.


Botanicare CNS17 Coco Grow (3-1-2) (NH4).14% (NO3)2.86% Mg.5% Ca3.6% Mn.05% Mo.0005%
4360g/3800mL = 1.147g/mL
@10mL/Gal
N 91
P 13
K 50
Mg 15
Ca 109
S NOT LISTED
Mn 1.5
Mo 0.015
Derived from: Calcium Nitrate, Mono Potassium Phosphate, Magnesium Sulfate, Potassium Nitrate, Manganese Sulfate, Ammonium Molybdate.


Botanicare CNS17 Hydro Bloom (2-2-5) (NH4)0.09% (NO3)1.91% Mg.5% Ca2% S1.14% Mn.03% Mo.0003%
4360g/3800mL = 1.147g/mL
@10mL/Gal
N 61
P 26
K 126
Mg 15
Ca 61
S 35
Mn 0.9
Mo 0.009
Derived from: Calcium Nitrate, Mono Potassium Phosphate, Magnesium Sulfate, Potassium Nitrate, Manganese Sulfate, Ammonium Molybdate.


Botanicare CNS17 Coco Bloom (2-2-3) (NH4)0.09% (NO3)1.91% Mg.5% Ca2.5% S1.14% Mn.05% Mo.0005%
4360g/3800mL = 1.147g/mL
@10mL/Gal
N 61
P 26
K 75
Mg 15
Ca 76
S 35
Mn 1.5
Mo 0.015
Derived from: Calcium Nitrate, Mono Potassium Phosphate, Magnesium Sulfate, Potassium Nitrate, Manganese Sulfate, Ammonium Molybdate.


Botanicare CNS17 Ripe (1-5-4) Mg.1% Ca0.15% S.1% Mn.01% Mo.0001%
4360g/3800mL = 1.147g/mL
@10mL/Gal
N 30
P 66
K 101
Mg 3
Ca 5
S 3
Mn 0.30
Mo 0.003
Derived from: Calcium Nitrate, Mono Potassium Phosphate, Magnesium Sulfate, Potassium Nitrate, Manganese Sulfate, Ammonium Molybdate.

Click to expand...

And if you still wanted some Botanicare Magnesium Sulfate (epsom salt), Sweet is one of their additives.

Botanicare Sweet Original Berry (0-0-0) Mg1.5% S2%
1080g/960mL = 1.065 g/mL
@10mL/Gal
N 0
P 0
K 0
Mg 42
Ca 0
S 56
Derived from: Magnesium Sulfate.

Click to expand...

Genetics play the biggest roll in aroma. While S is not listed in the PBP series, i assume it is there. I do this partly because it has to be, and partly because CNS17 doesnt list all of their 14 other elements (I believe they count H, C, and O).

thanks shroomdr.

do you know if S is created as a byproduct durring the breakdown of the material in pbp? or is it simply not listed, but provided in a form that can be taken-up?

I dont know much about organics, their cycles, or specifically fish meal and composted seabird guano.



If I wanted to read a little bit into it, and take a couple assumptions, i would say

First, all 7 of Botanicares base nutes @ an application rate of 10mL/Gal have 15Mg (forget Ripe). This is probably not a coincidence.
Second, the CNS17 all have the same ingredients, specifically magnesium sulfate, and manganese sulfate. Now if you assume their S is coming from those two sources, and the manganese is only needed in very small quantities, most of the S is coming from the magnesium sulfate.

Its a reach to assume they are using magnesium sulfate in the Pure Blend Pro series, just because the Mg levels are all the same. I wouldnt say its fact, but i assume its probably at a similar level.

PBP is not ORMI (although i dont know if epsom salt is a dis-qualifier or is ORMI). Technaflora and GH are a lot clearer on what's in the bottle, labeled on the bottle.

thanks again.

i was recently converted to the CNS17 line strictly by curiosity. i fuckin love the stuff. i run the coco/soil grow.bloom.ripe.LK.sweet (berry).hydroplex. im not sure about this S talk and aromas and such. i dont get that deep into it as to analyze whats in the bottle. i think unless we work there and are mixin the shit up ourselves, we will never know. im goin with genetics as well

Just ran across this thread again and thought I would let you all know that I called Botanicare and spoke with two different people that confirmed my suspicions. They do not put any S at all into the PBP bottles. So I'm gonna go ahead and assume that they do this because they would really like you to buy a bottle of Sweet to go with your PBP.

Anyhow, I switched to amended organic soil and my aroma problems have since worked themselves out, lol.

the_extremist said:

They do not put any S at all into the PBP bottles.

Click to expand...

The PBP formulas may not add Magnesium Sulfate, or Manganese Sulfate, but id bet my ass that there is S in the Fish Meal or Composted Seabird Guano.

In the future such questions can usually be best answered by simply checking with the Washington or California Fertilizer product data base analysis test results. They show that neither of the PBP products from Botanicare contain sulfur. (CORRECTION add: ..... at a a level of 1% or more.). California performs their own analysis on all fertilizers registered rather than expecting anyone to depend on the manufacturers guaranteed analysis. This is a great service as manufacturers are known for misrepresenting their products guaranteed analysis presented in their advertisements as well as on their products labels. Washington state initially accepts the statement of guranteed analysis but does its own testing randomly and when receiving complaints. The fines for misrepresentation are not small and those that misrepresent a products have the product removed from the registry by the state.

However:
WSDA conducts on-going random and targeted fertilizer product sampling, complaint investigations, field label reviews, removal of unregistered products or products otherwise in violation of fertilizer law from sale and inspections at fertilizer distributorships.
http://agr.wa.gov/PestFert/Fertilizers/InspectionCompliance.aspx

Commercial Fertilizer:

commercial fertilizers - a substance containing one or more recognized plant nutrients that is used for its plant nutrient content or that is designated for use or claimed to have value in promoting plant growth. Commercial fertilizers also include lime, gypsum, and manipulated animal and vegetable manures. It does not include unmanipulated animal and vegetable manures, organic waste-derived material, and other products exempted by the department by rule.

Definition (Washington State)


Commercial Fertilizer:

Recognized plant nutrients include: 1. Primary nutrients

• Nitrogen
• Phosphorous
• Potassium

2. Secondary nutrients

• Calcium
• Magnesium
• Sulfur

3. Micronutrients

• Boron
• Manganese
• Chlorine
• Molybdenum
• Cobalt
• Sodium
• Copper
• Zinc
• Iron

As can be seen within these posted PDF's Washington state does do a good deal of it's own testing annually. Fertilizer manufacturers must use independent laboratories for testing their products for registration with Washington state.
Report of the results of analysis of official samples of fertilizer within the state as compared with the analysis guaranteed on the label. (RCW 15.54.430)

• Chemist Report Results for Fertilizer Samples. January through December 2007
• Chemist Report Results for Fertilizer Samples. January through December 2008
• Chemist Report Results for Fertilizer Samples. January through December 2009
• Chemist Report Results for Fertilizer Samples. January through December 2010

http://agr.wa.gov/PestFert/Fertilizers/FertDB/Product1.aspx?action=ViewTable&ltr=B

http://www.cdfa.ca.gov/egov/is/fert/showFirmOptions.asp

Most numbers in those databases are from the product labels, they test for some heavy metals and some micros

thefatman said:

In the future such questions can usually be best answered by simply checking with the Washington or California Fertilizer product data base analysis test results. They show that neither of the PBP products from Botanicare contain sulfur. The states perform t.heir own analysis on all fertilizers registered rather than expecting anyone to depend on the manufacturers guaranteed analysis. This is a great service as manufacturers are known for misrepresenting their products guaranteed analysis presented in their advertisements as well as on their products labels.

http://agr.wa.gov/PestFert/Fertilizers/FertDB/Product1.aspx?action=ViewTable&ltr=B

http://www.cdfa.ca.gov/egov/is/fert/showFirmOptions.asp

Click to expand...

This is not strictly correct. First off unless a product contains 1% sulfur, S is not listed and not tested for under CDFA regulations. The CDFA does have their own lab (Western Analytical) but when a manufacturer registers they have to pay for tests with this lab to register. The CDFA very seldomly tests products thereafter so it is easy to cheat the system and many manufacturers do. Fines for non compliance are so low that many manufacturers see cheating the system as part of doing business. I made the mistake of testing with the CDFA lab once and once only as their standard test (due to CDFA regs) does not include sulfur or a breakdown on N - so no specific tests for urea, NO3 N and NH4 N and no S tests. It's far from a perfect system but then far better than most states have.

So to answer the original question - the reason S isn't listed by some manufacturers is because it is not required unless more than 1% of S is present in solution.

tester said:

Most numbers in those databases are from the product labels, they test for some heavy metals and some micros

Click to expand...

Incorrect. C prior post. Every reg with the CDFA must go through their lab.

neddy said:

This is not strictly correct. First off unless a product contains 1% sulfur, S is not listed and not tested for under CDFA regulations. The CDFA does have their own lab (Western Analytical) but when a manufacturer registers they have to pay for tests with this lab to register. The CDFA very seldomly tests products thereafter so it is easy to cheat the system and many manufacturers do. Fines for non compliance are so low that many manufacturers see cheating the system as part of doing business. I made the mistake of testing with the CDFA lab once and once only as their standard test (due to CDFA regs) does not include sulfur or a breakdown on N - so no specific tests for urea, NO3 N and NH4 N and no S tests. It's far from a perfect system but then far better than most states have.

So to answer the original question - the reason S isn't listed by some manufacturers is because it is not required unless more than 1% of S is present in solution.

Click to expand...

Sulfur is tested for by the by the California labs for product registration regardless of the amount contained. The test results would not be supplied by the registry if they did not do the testing for sulfur and the sulfur percentage is shown within the data based registry for levels of sulfur for 1% or more. Just what do you consider a small fine?

While neither state does a break down of the nitrogen into urea, NO3 N and NH4 N it is also very likely that the fertilizer manufacturers do not do so either. They likely just calculate the contribution of the different forms of nitrogen based upon the salts they use. Few nutrient formulas that contain sulfur contain less than 1% if sulfur has been purposely supplied through a salt containing sulfur..