[spurr]

Originally Posted by spurr

Hey bro,

This is doubly true if we add citric acid to assit in the mineralization of Phi from OM like SRF, and to assist in chelation of mineralized Pi.

FWIW, in that quote of mine you used above, I miss-wrote Phi when I meant Pi. I corrected the typo in my original post already.

Originally Posted by vonforne

LOL, that was my next question. I have been reading VG´s thread on Citric acid. I have been using Apple Cider to adjust my water PH. Here in Germany we sit on top of a Lime mountain. I have good results with the Cider but if I could improve P uptake with the citric acid then I think it is time to switch.

Would the powdered type from the Bio Markt work?

Yes, if it's pure citric acid. That is what I use, powdered citric acid from a wine/beer homebrew shop.

[VerdantGreen]

i just looked it up and there are two types

C6H8O7 (anhydrous)
C6H8O7. H2O (monohydrate)

cant see how there would be any difference except that the anhydrous would be more 'concentrated'

i dont think you would regret using the citric acid von. i was using it to adjust my water pH which is about 9, and i always suspected it was having good side effects on my grow. its been cool slowly finding out about all the other great benefits citric acid had, especially as i use rock phosphate as well.

VG

[spurr]

Originally Posted by VerdantGreen

i just looked it up and there are two types

C6H8O7 (anhydrous)
C6H8O7. H2O (monohydrate)

cant see how there would be any difference except that the anhydrous would be more 'concentrated'

Basically the main difference is H20. The anhydrous version has no water; it's best to buy the monohydrate version. The reason is ambient room humidity will often make anhydrous substances hard as a rock once they are exposed to air (they will absorb the humidity). Using granular (or fine powder) monohydrate is the better choice of the two because it 'easier' to work with.

Originally Posted by VerdantGreen

i dont think you would regret using the citric acid von. i was using it to adjust my water pH which is about 9, and i always suspected it was having good side effects on my grow. its been cool slowly finding out about all the other great benefits citric acid had, especially as i use rock phosphate as well.

VG

I agree 100%. FWIW, I have been trying to find studies looking at effects of exogenous application of citric acid upon the Krebs cycle of plants. So far, I have not found anything showing exogenous application of citric acid to rhizosphere helps the Krebs cycle, even though I thought I had read something on that topic in the past. However, I do believe foliar application of citric acid (I use it to lower pH of foliar sprays to 6-6.5 pH) might benefit the Krebs cycle...but that's only my unproven guess. I need to devote more time to looking into exogenous application of citric acid effects upon Krebs cycle.

Originally Posted by vonforne

It does follow my opinion of ALL bottled products sold on the market today. Useless.

I'm pretty hardcore when it comes to organics however I do not agree with that statement. I think that almost all bottled products are useless or at the very least not necessary when following a solid organic program. Probably not necessary at all however I think do add some value or provide benefits.

I look at it this way...while nature creates gemstone crystals it takes a skilled hand to bring out their true brilliance and potential on the lapidary wheel...if that makes any sense.

[hiker]

Here is some knowledge from someone who uses phosphites religiously at their job for most of the year. Phosphites will absolutly help your plants fight stress and disease. It is a great preventer of root born diseases, especially pythium. However, this being said, it has no nutritional value in the phosphorus department, NONE WHATSOEVER, no one has to believe that, but it it the truth, I know, for many years I have used this product to help ensure my job during many stressful summer nights. So remember PHOSPHITES, GREAT FOR YOUR PLANTS HEALTH, NO USE WHATSOEVER AS A FERTILIZER, also a LITTLE PHOSPHITES GOES A LONG WAY, don't overdose

[zenoonez]

Originally Posted by hiker

Here is some knowledge from someone who uses phosphites religiously at their job for most of the year. Phosphites will absolutly help your plants fight stress and disease. It is a great preventer of root born diseases, especially pythium. However, this being said, it has no nutritional value in the phosphorus department, NONE WHATSOEVER, no one has to believe that, but it it the truth, I know, for many years I have used this product to help ensure my job during many stressful summer nights. So remember PHOSPHITES, GREAT FOR YOUR PLANTS HEALTH, NO USE WHATSOEVER AS A FERTILIZER, also a LITTLE PHOSPHITES GOES A LONG WAY, don't overdose

So I assume you use it as a foliar?

[grapeman]

Originally Posted by zenoonez

So I assume you use it as a foliar?

Always.

[hiker]

Zenoonez, yes, always as a foliar, and once again, watch the dosage.

[spurr]

Originally Posted by hiker

Here is some knowledge from someone who uses phosphites religiously at their job for most of the year. Phosphites will absolutly help your plants fight stress...

Phi is not a great SAR inducer, the main reason is it is not effective for a large variation of species. Have you tested it on cannabis?

Originally Posted by hiker

It is a great preventer of root born diseases, especially pythium.

Yea for sure, it's also good for some fungi pathogens found in the phyllosphere. The main benefit from Phi is it's action as a systemic fungicide and/or fungistat.

Originally Posted by hiker

However, this being said, it has no nutritional value in the phosphorus department, NONE WHATSOEVER, no one has to believe that, but it it the truth, I know, for many years I have used this product to help ensure my job during many stressful summer nights.

That's not quite true, Phi does provide P, but only after the slow process of bacterial oxidization of Phi into Pi (before being taken into plant tissues). Also, many growers use Phi in fertigation water, and that application is suggested (along with foliar as the primary application method) by NutriPhite. When Phi is used in fertigation water in soil with high pH, Phi can be oxidized into Pi more quickly (vs. foliar application) due to the high pH (and bacterial enzyme oxidation in rhizosphere and soil solution).

Also, according the PhD plant physiologist at NutriPhite, foliar application of Phi that is taken into plant tissue as Phi, can cause the plant produce certain exudates in the rhizosphere that can increase uptake of P (either as Pi or DOP) from the rhizosphere. That said, if Phi is taken into plant tissue it stays as Phi because there is no (known) plant enzyme that can oxidize Phi into Pi (proven via year long study of radioactively labeled Phi in plant tissue).

Originally Posted by hiker

So remember PHOSPHITES, GREAT FOR YOUR PLANTS HEALTH, NO USE WHATSOEVER AS A FERTILIZER, also a LITTLE PHOSPHITES GOES A LONG WAY, don't overdose

I for one would not use Phi for a SAR inducer, or as a fungicide/fungistat, mainly because I want beneficial fungi in the rhizosphere and phyllosphere; and use of Phi will hinder (to a great extent) many beneficial fungi as well as many harmful fungi.

There are better options for SAR inducers such as SA and MeJA, those that do not hinder beneficial fungi and those that have a strong effect upon cannabis.

I agree there is zero reason to try and provide P via Phi, that's a fools errand when we can simply supply P via Pi (to rhizosphere and phyllosphere).

A major issue with using Phi as a SAR inducer, is like you mention, a little goes a long way. It's easy to over-apply Phi, especially because it's systemic in plant tissue, and over-application means phyotoxicity and damaged plants. That issue of build-up of continually applied Phi is more of a concern with perennials than annuals like cannabis (e.g., Phi is generally not applied for a long period of time)

[hiker]

Spurr, no I have not tried on cannabis and not really sure if you need to. As for a SARs inducer, that is not why I use phosphites, I use other products for that. I use a product that I also use at work that I think works quite nicely, if you are interested, pm me and I''ll tell you about it. By the way, thanks for the heads up on the info on mycorrhiza, I have been using a product that provides that at work for many years also, one of the original firm believers in this product, and I know other systemics fungicides are harmful, but never thought of phosphites as hindering the process. I'm going to have to look into this, but truthfully, at work I don't really have that option. Phosphites are to much a part of my agronomic arsenal there. Thanks again, I love this thread, I feel useful.