Originally Posted by VerdantGreen

thankyou mullray for the positive contribution. we got there eventually.

i look forward to hearing some responses to it.

VG

VG, your role as a self-annointed moderator is highly called into question when you clearly are biased towards one person's views and troll another who is responding (in a roundabout manner, but still responding and refuting) to those views.

Perhaps (like myself and others are doing), you should let the "true" moderators do their job and allow Spurr and Grape/Mull to debate the topic on its merits?

Thanks and have a good day.

[spurr]

@ all,

This thread has gone to shit thanks to mullray. Like I wrote before, I am not going to respond directly to him again, and I stand by that position. Mullray has introduced many red herrings into this thread, and continually misrepresented what I wrote. He continually is calling members very rude names (like pedophiles, twats, and many homophobic slurs), along with threatening to physically harm myself and Mr.Fista; all because he has been proven wrong but doesn't like it. I thought writing those things were against the TOU and would get his posts removed or him removed...

I already wrote about phosphorous acid far too much in this thread that isn't about the best P source; this thread is about Phi and how Phi is not a good P source.

I wrote about RO water in passing because someone (mullray?) brought it up. What I wrote, and what ambertrich wrote, is correct. I am not about to make a fully referenced post about RO water in a thread about Phi. And I find it very funny that mullray demands from me peer-reviewed studies about RO water in hydro; but then he goes and posts his only reference about RO from a non-legit source (a company)! And to boot, his reference doesn't even discuss the matter of pH, which is why I wrote what I did about RO water.

Mullray's obsession with "but, but I'M USING HYDRO!" is so flawed it's not even funny. I explained it to him twice already that using hydro is no different than using soil or soiless, in that, in all instances water is present (i.e. "soil solution" for soil and soilless). In his apparent need to discuss phosphorous acid in a Phi thread, he likes to believe hydro is some far-off animal that is unlike growing in soil and soilless in terms of how phosphorous acid and Phi react in hydro water vs. water in soil and soilless. I guess the water in hydro is magical. What really gets my goat, is that this thread is about Phi, and we all agree most people use Phi as a foliar (some well known people here do use it in fertigation water). So, even if somehow hydro water was magically different than soil and soilless water, it's a moot point, because most people use Phi as a foliar spray. I have pointed all of this out to mullray at least twice already.

I agree with Mr.Fista, mullray for some reason thinks he has to prove something to everyone, he is not debating, he is simply arguing. He doesn't read and allow what people wrote to sink in and consider what they wrote, he just jumps on his keyboard and types out a lot of name calling and opinion without posting science.

The ONE study mullray has succeed in posting fully agrees with everything I have written, what mullray mistakenly calls my "hypothesis", LOL. For being a "molecular biologist" (yea right!) I find it odd he doesn't even know what a hypothesis is, because if he did, he would know I posted scientific theory, not hypothesis (in terms of Phi). I explained this to him already but just like on other topics, he ignores what I write and simply claims I am writing things I am not.

If one were to look up "disingenuous" and "misrepresentation" in the dictionary, one would see a picture of mullray


Let me break down his only study he has managed to post in a science sub-forum. I will point out how everything claimed in the hydro study abstract is 100% in agreement with what is found in soil and soilless studies; and shows my claim that there is no difference between hydro and soil/soilless culture in regard to the thread topic is correct. I find it funny that for being a "molecular biologist" he can't even properly cite a study, or get it in full text!

This quote of mullray's is so wrong it's sad:

What did seem clear is the outcomes are extremely different to that which would occur in soil.

In the following study the workers found Phi inhibits uptake of Pi if applied to the rhizosphere, which is exactly what happens if Phi is applied to any rhizosphere, be in soil, soilless, hydro, NFT, etc. I have written about this many times, even in the first post in this thread.

In the second to last sentence of that study's abstract, the workers cite that hydro (water) is a poor vehicle for conversion of Phi into Pi, just what I wrote many times to mullary. The reason being, that in hydro, just like in most soil and all soilless, the pH is not > 8. It's high pH that can enhance oxidation of Phi into Pi. In the second to last sentence the workers also cited their hypothesis that extra Pi is needed to offset the reduced Pi uptake thanks to Phi hindering Pi uptake; because Phi is not a source of P until its oxidized in Pi.

I also noticed there is typo in the abstract, phosphite is not abbreviated as "Pi", it is abbreviated as "Phi". There is only one instance of that typo in the abstract, later in the abstract the authors properly abbreviated phosphite as Phi and phosphate as Pi.

Thao, H.T.B. and Yamakawa, T. (2010), Phosphate absorption of intact komatsuna plants as influenced by phosphite. Soil Science & Plant Nutrition, 56: 133–139.

Abstract

"Phosphite (Pi) [EDIT: phosphite is Phi, not Pi] uptake in cell suspension culture, information on how Phi affects the Pi uptake of intact plants remains to be determined. The present study was conducted to investigate the effect of Phi on Pi absorption of intact komatsuna plants (Brassica rapa var. peruviridis cv. Ajisai) in hydroponic culture. Phosphite markedly decreased Pi absorption of the intact komatsuna plants under both low (0.05 mmol L−1) and high (0.5 mmol L−1) Pi supply, although the growth (both shoots and roots) and water uptake of the high Pi-supplied plants was not affected by Phi. The inhibiting effect of Phi was small at 0.2 mmol L−1, but became large at 2 mmol L−1. Using relatively large seedlings (28 days old) to better assess the influence of Phi on Pi absorption early in the treatment, the results indicated that there was an immediate decrease in Pi absorption within the first 2-day period of Phi treatment when the water absorption of the plants was not affected. Taken together, the results suggested that there was a strong inhibiting effect of Phi on Pi uptake of intact komatsuna plants and this effect is exerted most likely by competition between Phi and Pi at uptake level. We speculate that the application of Phi to plant roots in an environment that is unfavorable for Phi-to-Pi conversion (e.g. hydroponic culture) may need to increase the amount of required Pi fertilization of plants to compensate for the reduction in Pi uptake by Phi. Further research is needed to confirm our results."

@ Old Pink, when you come back, please consider cleaning up this thread and/or locking it. Mullray is being a troll in this thread and ruining it while at the same time calling people very rude names, threatening physical violence, lying and just posting a bunch of crap. TIA


@ all: I am not about to be part of the demise of this thread, if people want to discuss Phi that's fine, but for now I am not going to post in this thread again until two things happen: (1) mullray goes away or starts acting like an adult; and (2) we get back on topic of Phi.

Lastly, the last two pages (9-10) of this thread have been nearly full of rambling idiotic posts by mullray where he still posts no science and makes arm-waving claims about red herrings that have nothing to do with this thread. All the while fully misrepresenting what I wrote. At least grapeman (who seems to dislike me as much as mullray) keeps his non-referenced and non-scientific based posts short, and to the point.

[Microbeman]

Originally Posted by MrFista

"I'd bet my annual chemical purchases are more then your home is worth"

It really shouldn't be like that. That sucks.

I'll say. Using chemicals in farming makes for short term gains but longterm destruction of soil. I speak as a farmer (well last year was my last year on my 100 acres). I watched over time that two farms in our area (one ours) not using chemical inputs overall out-yielded chemical farms...especially in drought years. Sorry..no science.

[Microbeman]

Originally Posted by mullray

Yeah Mr Fista grow organically, starve the planet and sell overpriced rubbish to tree hugging white middle classed folk who can afford it. I'll look forward to debating you on this one on an appropriate thread.

This should be all that anyone with an IQ over 90 should need to comprehend that this gentleman is misinformed. He is not alone of course.This is a common misconception. I thought you were the one lecturing me about taking stock of what is happening outside the Americas. BTW the company (charity) you supposedly work for goes by Mines Advisory Group rather than Mines Alliance Group as you stated. (to give you benefit of doubt, perhaps they changed their name).

[VerdantGreen]

Originally Posted by Bob Smith

VG, your role as a self-annointed moderator is highly called into question when you clearly are biased towards one person's views and troll another who is responding (in a roundabout manner, but still responding and refuting) to those views.

Perhaps (like myself and others are doing), you should let the "true" moderators do their job and allow Spurr and Grape/Mull to debate the topic on its merits?

Thanks and have a good day.

bob, please read my previous posts where i clearly stated that i wasn't a moderator.

i have now been called a troll twice since i joined ICmag and both times it has been by yourself - and i very much resent it. (however you subsequently deleted all your posts in the thread where you previously made the accusation)

as for allowing people to 'debate the topic on it's merits' - that is exactly what i have been repeatedly appealing for people to do in this thread, without the abuse and name-calling.

as for being biased towards someone's views, how can that be when i have also clearly stated that i dont know the answers?

yes, lets leave it to the real mods. ive had enough.

VG

Originally Posted by VerdantGreen

bob, please read my previous posts where i clearly stated that i wasn't a moderator.

i have now been called a troll twice since i joined ICmag and both times it has been by yourself - and i very much resent it. (however you subsequently deleted all your posts in the thread where you previously made the accusation)

as for allowing people to 'debate the topic on it's merits' - that is exactly what i have been repeatedly appealing for people to do in this thread, without the abuse and name-calling.

as for being biased towards someone's views, how can that be when i have also clearly stated that i dont know the answers?

yes, lets leave it to the real mods. ive had enough.

VG

Sorry if that offends you, dude, but I call them like I see them.

If anyone can't read your posts in your responses to Mullray and see the unnecessary needling of him by your confrontational/goading phrases ("we got there eventually", "at least now", "I'll ask you again", etc.) - IMO, that's trolling - others can judge for themselves.

I'd say we've exhausted this subject, so if you have anything more to say to me or I have anything more to say to you I'd suggest we use the PM system so as to not clog up this thread.

Thanks and have a good day.

EDIT: BTW, my little contribution to the thread - decided to do a foliar fed PK booster (vs. a control group) for a head to head experiment, so I'd love some requests/suggestions - heading to the hydro store tomorrow (hopefully for the last time in a long time) so I'd need them kinda quickly.

Thread will be posted in the new subforum for experiments.

[JJScorpio]

I'm closing this thread until I get time to go through it and see what the problems are.

I don't know why there has to be so much fighting..... Merry Christmas.....