[arcticjake]

Anybody up on current Can. seed rules? In regards to importation (Can. border services) or possession of (RCMP). At various times in my life I've seeds taken by Can Customs, RCMP, Calgary Police Services and lately Can. Border Services sent me a letter. I've never felt the need to battle these confistications for various reasons but I'm wondering why they care anymore when seeds can be purchased fairly readily.
I'm not trying to discuss any particular vendor or shipping practise just the implications within Canada.

Jake

[Chimera]

Rarely prosecuted but technically illegal.

Check the controlled drugs and substances act for specifics. Any part of the cannabis plant is technically illegal- the only exceptions are fiber stalks and non-viable hemp seed.

Hope that helps,
-Chimera

[Marco Renda]

Well I have to say that the law pertaining to seeds here in Canada will be challenged in the courts real soon. I'm one of the owners of a wholesale seed company and we have been importing seeds into Canada and paying taxes for over 3 years now. Canada Customs & Revenue have NO PROBLEM with our company so much so that they have given IMPORTATION / EXPORTATION BIN #. It's HEALTH CANADA that has the problem with seeds as they want to have a manopoly on seed sales. I have over 7,000 packs of seeds sitting at Pearson Airport that Canada Customs want to release but Health Canada is saying NO. So we are taking Health Canada to court. The RCMP were called when I brought the seeds into Canada and told the folks at Customs that my paperwork was in order and that they will have to deal with Health Canada on this matter.

Take Care and Peace
Marco Renda
Federal Exemptee
Publisher
Treating Yourself
The Alternative Medicine Journal

[fatigues]

Cannabis is a controlled drug under the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act. Cannabis is defined in Schedule II of the Act.

Cannabis is defined to include virtually everything related to or derived from the plant, excepting:

but not including
(8) Non–viable Cannabis seed, with the exception of its derivatives
(9)Mature Cannabis stalks that do not include leaves, flowers, seeds or branches; and fiber derived from such stalks

Non-viable seeds are not illegal to sell within Canada or to import or export them according to our law, as they are not "cannabis" under Schedule II of the CDSA. (Note: they may well be defined as "cannabis" and illegal to import/export under the law of another country, i.e., the USA, which leads us to Marc Emery and we know how that story ends.

More recently, Richard Baghdadlian, the owner of Heaven's Stairway and Overgrow.com was fined and sentenced to two years less a day as a non-custodial sentence for import/exporting seeds via OG before it was raided and closed in 2006.

Now, as to what is a viable vs. a non-viable seed? It's impossible to know without attempting to germinate a given seed, isn't it? Accordingly, proving the mental component of the crime -- the intention to possess, traffick, import or export viable seed is extremely difficult if there are only a small number of seeds involved.

But that's about the Crown proving a person's criminal intent over a relatively SMALL number of seeds.

Proving a right to possess a seed that happens to be impounded by the police is another matter. If the Police (or Customs) have the seed but won't give it back, you are essentially left with an action for a mandatory order (replevin) to compel them to release the seeds to you.

While criminal law may require proof of intent in order to be guilty of possession, import, export, trafficking and so forth, a civil motion for the return of property is another matter. In that case, the police will say "it's cannabis, or, on a balance of probabilities, likely to be cannabis" and we aren't giving it to you because it is illegal to import cannabis.

If you have a ATP, you are exempted from prosecution from possession, but the MMAR does not permit you to import or export viable cannabis seeds for any purpose.

While the police can't prosecute you for possession, they CAN prosecute you under the CDSA for importation of cannabis. (Theoretically, a serious offence by the way - that's potentially a life sentence under the CDSA).

While I wish Marco Renda all the best, his case has some inherent difficulties -- and it would appear to be inviting the police to prosecute him for importation of cannabis. While viability of a few given seeds is in doubt, given a number of thousands of seeds? In my opinion, no judge will accept that viability of those seeds - or a portion of them at least -- is in real doubt. And therefore both the act and the requisite criminal intent are present and the crime will be proved by the Crown.

That reasoning would make anybody who imported a large number of seeds in Canada potentially guilty of the offence of importation a Schedule II drug under the CDSA.

I assume that Marco is inviting the charge to challenge the CDSA import prohibition under constitutional grounds analogous to R. v. Parker, where the object of the Charter challenge is that the sale by Health Canada of only one tepid strain of a middle of the road indica is an illogical and unreasonable restriction on patients with an ATP and Personal Production License under the MMAR. Given that certain strains are believed to be better at treating some symptoms, the argument follows that by preventing the importation of a seed strain needed by the patient which Health Canada won't sell, this prohibition is, in turn, a violation of a patient's s. 7 Charter rights.

Thus Marco essentially invites Health Canada to be a Gypsy Nirvana / Seedbay / Attitude Seed Bank reseller

[Note: the argument that one strain is better at treating some symptoms than others is, for the most part, a highly anecdotal and subjective argument without much real scientific evidence or fact. Most of these reputed properties attributed to certain strains in terms of the strain’s different therapeutic value is pretty much, in a word: bullshit on a scientific basis. But "most" does not mean "all" and there is some scientific evidence of a difference between an indica and a sativa high, certainly, because of the differences in the THC and CBD/CBN components. There is also ample and unquestioned evidence concerning relative strengths of certain strains in THC and CBD/CBN. So the strains argument simply in terms of strength may have merit on its own - without getting into whether or not White Berry is, say, better at treating restless leg syndrome than Master Kush might be.]

So, if I had to guess, that argument will probably fly in Court. Note that "probably" is a lawyer's way of saying "maybe not", all while still sounding very encouraging to the client.

Given this current federal government in Ottawa, it's also exceptionally clear that Harper and Co. will appeal any adverse ruling all the way to the SCC before the matter is resolved. Accordingly, you need to be able to dig-in for the long haul on such litigation.

Good luck on the case Marco. Public Interest litigation where there is a potential for a criminal sanction is a long, dangerous and expensive climb.

[straintester]

Originally Posted by Chimera

Rarely prosecuted but technically illegal.

Check the controlled drugs and substances act for specifics. Any part of the cannabis plant is technically illegal- the only exceptions are fiber stalks and non-viable hemp seed.

Hope that helps,
-Chimera

YEP!

Originally Posted by fatigues

Cannabis is a controlled drug under the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act. Cannabis is defined in Schedule II of the Act.

Cannabis is defined to include virtually everything related to or derived from the plant, excepting:

Non-viable seeds are not illegal to sell within Canada or to import or export them according to our law, as they are not "cannabis" under Schedule II of the CDSA. (Note: they may well be defined as "cannabis" and illegal to import/export under the law of another country, i.e., the USA, which leads us to Marc Emery and we know how that story ends.

More recently, Richard Baghdadlian, the owner of Heaven's Stairway and Overgrow.com was fined and sentenced to two years less a day as a non-custodial sentence for import/exporting seeds via OG before it was raided and closed in 2006.

Now, as to what is a viable vs. a non-viable seed? It's impossible to know without attempting to germinate a given seed, isn't it? Accordingly, proving the mental component of the crime -- the intention to possess, traffick, import or export viable seed is extremely difficult if there are only a small number of seeds involved.

But that's about the Crown proving a person's criminal intent over a relatively SMALL number of seeds.

Proving a right to possess a seed that happens to be impounded by the police is another matter. If the Police (or Customs) have the seed but won't give it back, you are essentially left with an action for a mandatory order (replevin) to compel them to release the seeds to you.

While criminal law may require proof of intent in order to be guilty of possession, import, export, trafficking and so forth, a civil motion for the return of property is another matter. In that case, the police will say "it's cannabis, or, on a balance of probabilities, likely to be cannabis" and we aren't giving it to you because it is illegal to import cannabis.

If you have a ATP, you are exempted from prosecution from possession, but the MMAR does not permit you to import or export viable cannabis seeds for any purpose.

While the police can't prosecute you for possession, they CAN prosecute you under the CDSA for importation of cannabis. (Theoretically, a serious offence by the way - that's potentially a life sentence under the CDSA).

While I wish Marco Renda all the best, his case has some inherent difficulties -- and it would appear to be inviting the police to prosecute him for importation of cannabis. While viability of a few given seeds is in doubt, given a number of thousands of seeds? In my opinion, no judge will accept that viability of those seeds - or a portion of them at least -- is in real doubt. And therefore both the act and the requisite criminal intent are present and the crime will be proved by the Crown.

That reasoning would make anybody who imported a large number of seeds in Canada potentially guilty of the offence of importation a Schedule II drug under the CDSA.

I assume that Marco is inviting the charge to challenge the CDSA import prohibition under constitutional grounds analogous to R. v. Parker, where the object of the Charter challenge is that the sale by Health Canada of only one tepid strain of a middle of the road indica is an illogical and unreasonable restriction on patients with an ATP and Personal Production License under the MMAR. Given that certain strains are believed to be better at treating some symptoms, the argument follows that by preventing the importation of a seed strain needed by the patient which Health Canada won't sell, this prohibition is, in turn, a violation of a patient's s. 7 Charter rights.

Thus Marco essentially invites Health Canada to be a Gypsy Nirvana / Seedbay / Attitude Seed Bank reseller

[Note: the argument that one strain is better at treating some symptoms than others is, for the most part, a highly anecdotal and subjective argument without much real scientific evidence or fact. Most of these reputed properties attributed to certain strains in terms of the strain’s different therapeutic value is pretty much, in a word: bullshit on a scientific basis. But "most" does not mean "all" and there is some scientific evidence of a difference between an indica and a sativa high, certainly, because of the differences in the THC and CBD/CBN components. There is also ample and unquestioned evidence concerning relative strengths of certain strains in THC and CBD/CBN. So the strains argument simply in terms of strength may have merit on its own - without getting into whether or not White Berry is, say, better at treating restless leg syndrome than Master Kush might be.]

So, if I had to guess, that argument will probably fly in Court. Note that "probably" is a lawyer's way of saying "maybe not", all while still sounding very encouraging to the client.

Given this current federal government in Ottawa, it's also exceptionally clear that Harper and Co. will appeal any adverse ruling all the way to the SCC before the matter is resolved. Accordingly, you need to be able to dig-in for the long haul on such litigation.

Good luck on the case Marco. Public Interest litigation where there is a potential for a criminal sanction is a long, dangerous and expensive climb.

Damn.



I'm speechless and that doesn't happen often

[straintester]

You bring up some very good points and are obviously more up to date with the government laws than I am . With that being said, since cannabis is legal to grow for people with exemptions , according to the laws on Controlled Drugs and Substances Act, there needs to be a source for obtaining seeds, besides purchasing them from Health Canada. If you think about it, ALL the people who have obtained these licenses to possess and use this as an alternative medicine, have previously used cannabis grown from various strains globally which is what they based their personal experience on. From this information a doctor prescribes it to the patient.
These people aren’t getting their prescription based on a strain dished out by Health Canada and if this is the case then it would make everybody’s prescription VOID!
People only know the benefits of cannabis through their own personal use and since nobody really knows about Health Canada’s one strain, then how could any doctor possibly prescribe it?
If a carded patient within the MMAR program seeks a grower, how is any grower supposed to know of this information before hand?
The levels of THC in most of todays cannabis strains are far beyond what Health Canada is claiming should be. The maximum potency, according to them being 12.5%.
Its all crushed up into a powder with seeds, stock and all. Quality inspection is as lame as this strain obviously...lol


Since cannabis is legal for some growers but yet nobody in Canada has the right to breed seeds for ‘use of ’ , how are legal growers supposed to obtain seeds?.
Its even against the law to produce seeds as a legal grower but how does a grower possibly prevent this from ever happening? This leads us to licensed made to grow but no legal seeds in which to do so.
The laws in Canada state that legal growers have permission to use seeds but it does not state that the seeds have to be from Health Canada. This seems to be HC’s guidelines which conflict with the actual law. If they are not from Health Canada and nobody in Canada is legally allowed to breed and sell seeds, where are legal growers supposed to obtain their seeds from? Wouldn’t they HAVE to come from outside Canada since breeding seeds in Canada is illegal? Importing seeds is illegal also.
This is a HUGE flaw in their system which desperately needs to be addressed so I would hope that Marco or someone is addressing this issue. A one strain fits all regimen of self medication is also never gonna fly when you truly think about it.
Although I tend to agree that the strain evaluation is pumped up far more than needed , but this is partially how the medical marijuana movement proceeded forward. Research needed to be done to prove that cannabis can relieve certain disorders and if WE, as patients, cannot experiment, how are we EVER going to progress? It was because of THIS very reason that got people their cards.
Nobody tried Health Canada’s one strain cannabis, went to their doctor and said they have had such relief from this one strain that they just HAD to have it.
Even if HC wanted it to pan out this way, it can’t legally be accomplished so they sort of screwed themselves in this regard, if you follow what I am saying.

It does all boil down to Health Canada’s prohibition against other strains being a violation of a patients rights.
I’m not a doctor, lawyer or scientist nor do I work for anyone related in the MMJ industry but do KNOW that strain selection is crucial for any grower in order to care for a patient properly. There can be a significant difference between a trippy sativa and a sedative indica which is why there are professionals in the cannabis industry.
Health Canada NOT being one of them but if they have issued licenses for other Canadians to act as professionals in the health care industry, then they need to be more realistic otherwise they could have many others wanting to sue them.

One thing anyone wishing to obtain a license in Canada may want to do is to educate their doctor on what strains work best for their certain disorders and have the prescription written as such. If the license is for 4 grams per day the doctor could ask that 35 % be sativa crosses and 65% be a variety of indica crosses to ENSURE that they are receiving the 'correct' prescription. This is one way to stop HC from monopolizing the patients in Canada who are relying on this medicine for one reason or another.

Having licensed growers but no legal seeds is just retarded.

Here is the only legal seed in Canada according to Health Canada

Specifically they describe their strain as: "The production line MS-17/338 consists of female Cannabis sativa L. 'Indica' and is described as moderate in height (90-120 cm) with a moderate degree of branching (10-15 side branches) from the main stalk. The main stalk terminates in a dense, conical, resin laden flowering head of an average length of 25-45 cm."

https://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/dhp-mps/marih.../index-eng.php



NOTE: I am neither for or against Marco's actions in regards to this but was pointing out these facts out of principle and common sense alone.

[fatigues]

Originally Posted by straintester

These people aren’t getting their prescription based on a strain dished out by Health Canada and if this is the case then it would make everybody’s prescription VOID!

Uhm....No. Who said that?

First off, while a doctor could, theoretically, write a prescription for marijuana in Canada - they don't. Nor is there any drug store that could fill it if they did.

Signing a MMAR form is not a prescription.

The fact that a person with a MMAR card is growing Super Lemon Haze is not, in itself, contrary to the regulation. It's not illegal for a person to buy an ounce of Super Lemon Haze off of a local dealer either (not that this strain is generally available from any dealer, but, if it was).

Now, it's illegal for a dealer to traffick in marijuana - but it isn't illegal for a person with an ATP to buy it.

The levels of THC in most of today’s cannabis strains are far beyond what Health Canada is claiming should be. The maximum potency, according to them being 12.5%.
Its all crushed up into a powder with seeds, stock and all. Quality inspection is as lame as this strain obviously...lol

Sounds to me like you are buying into some of the propaganda about how bad Health Canada's weed is. It's not that bad - it's actually almost decent weed. I've bought far worse from dealers. It is, most assuredly, not schwag or anything close to "downtown brown".

It's a little better than "mids" in California dispensary slang, as Health Canda's weed is not grown outdoors.

That said, it is also clearly not top shelf meds either. It does happen to be pre-ground, so there is some settling and more kief than you would prefer ends up near the bottom of the bag. It's not that big a deal - but it is less than ideal, to be sure.

Since cannabis is legal for some growers but yet nobody in Canada has the right to breed seeds for ‘use of ’ , how are legal growers supposed to obtain seeds?.

Who said that? If you have a personal production license, it is completely legal for you to breed your own seed.

Its even against the law to produce seeds as a legal grower but how does a grower possibly prevent this from ever happening?

Uhm... No. It isn't. Who said that?

The laws in Canada state that legal growers have permission to use seeds but it does not state that the seeds have to be from Health Canada. This seems to be HC’s guidelines which conflict with the actual law.

No. Look, you are getting confused here. Health Canada well knows that the vast majority of people with an ATP/PPL are not going to be buying seeds from them.

But if they didn't offer viable seeds for sale, it would be a hole in the system and they'd be in litigation over it as another reason the CDSA should be suspended for violations of s. 7 of the Charter. So Health Canada does the bare minimum to comply with that potential argument arising out of R. v. Parker on analogous grounds.

It all comes down to this: the Federal Government in Canada does not WANT to be growing weed and they don't WANT to be selling it. But they have no choice, as the Courts essentially forced them into doing so against their will.

Given that the Federal Government feels that they must do this to comply with the Courts' orders, they do so only to the extent they are required to do it. No more. On a policy level, one of the biggest "political" aspects of the Federal Government's program is to deter "diversion" of government grown weed/seeds from ending up on the black market and resold by patients. Government of Canada weed is therefore designed not to be especially attractive to street buyers. The same approach has been taken with governent seeds, too. They don't want to carry every line that Gypsy Nirvana or every seed Bank in B.C. or Ontario sells.

That's why they sell pre-ground bud from a middle of the road indica. It's not top shelf because they don't want it to be. It's pre-ground because very few people will buy pre-ground weed. They sell only one seed strain because they don't want to be selling seeds at all -- but given that they feel they are forced to -- what they sell is essentially Prairie Medical's version of a middlin of the road NL#5, non-feminized seed. That's it and that's all.

On the plus side, it's only 66 cents a seed (a pack of thirty for $20 plus HST) and it's really not that bad. Grow it well, you'll have decent smoke. The best? No. Connoisseur grade weed? Hell no. Better than outdoor grown beasters? Hell yes.

It does all boil down to Health Canada’s prohibition against other strains being a violation of a patients’ rights.

No, they don't prohibit a particular strain. They just don't sell it. That's not the same thing - that's a distinction with a difference. If a MMAR card holder gets hold of seeds they would prefer to grow, nothing is stopping them from doing so. No patient has ever been charged for importing viable seeds -- so it is a difficult law to have declared void on constitutional grounds as it remains (for the most part) a law that is not used and so is rarely challenged.

I’m not a doctor, lawyer or scientist nor do I work for anyone related in the MMJ industry but do KNOW that strain selection is crucial for any grower in order to care for a patient properly. There can be a significant difference between a trippy sativa and a sedative indica which is why there are professionals in the cannabis industry.

I don't know about that. I admit it is very (and probably extremely) likely to be so. But I'm not aware of any clinical studies which demonstrate -- on a scientific basis -- that there is a difference, let alone what that difference might be.

To be sure, it's a chicken and egg situation. If the only weed that scientists can use in their testing is government grown weed, and the government grows only one type of weed, it's just not possible to obtain the scientific data necessary to compare the effects of certain strains relative to each other, is it?

While that conundrum is rather plain, it's a bit of a leap to then say that the scientific literature supports findings of a particular strain being more useful to treat a given symptom than another. There really is no scientific evidence of that at all. It's all subjective and highly anecdotal evidence. Some of it is doubtless true -- but most of it is bullshit when evaluated on a scientific basis.

One thing anyone wishing to obtain a license in Canada may want to do is to educate their doctor on what strains work best for their certain disorders and have the prescription written as such.

Once again, doctors in Canada do not write prescriptions for marijuana. They could, if they chose to -- but they don't. Accordingly, what you suggest is simply not practical advice.

If the license is for 4 grams per day the doctor could ask that 35 % be sativa crosses and 65% be a variety of indica crosses to ENSURE that they are receiving the 'correct' prescription.

Well I suppose a doctor could do that. And if the doctor did that, then I suppose that might be evidence which a court could look to in support of ordering some sort of relief or mandatory order. If it was backed up by some form of study or other expert evidence that was accepted by the Court, I think it likely that evidence might fly too and be accepted as "fact" for the purposes of that case.

The point is, however, that none of this conjecture has actually happened in a real case.

Having licensed growers but no legal seeds is just retarded.

Again, you are overstating the effect of the law. I think it's also fair to say that there are about 4,000 licensed growers in Canada - and a miniscule minority of them are growing the seeds received from Health Canada. Clearly, they are getting their seeds anyway.

Hell, at one point, Health Canada was informally directing people who inquired to purchase seeds from Marc Emery and Heaven's Gate. Ironic, (if not plainly hypocritical) isn't it?

Here is the only legal seed in Canada according to Health Canada

Again, you are overstating the case. It's the only seed you can buy from Health Canada. If you otherwise get ahold of seeds from a seed bank in Canada (of which there are many) there is nothing "illegal" about that viable seed once it is in the licensed patient's hands. So... while the situation could clearly use some cleaning up, on balance, it's not that it is an entirely unliveable situation.

Now, if the seed banks suddenly started getting busted? Different story. But that has not happened (yet).

More to the point, where can a patient buy an off the shelf clone in Canada? It's nowhere near as easy as it should be to do that. From the few sources that do exist -- they are ridiculously expensive, too.

I'd rather see a fight about making clones available, than seeds. But that's a rather tangential point, I suppose.

It does appear that one seed bank which Marco is involved with has had inventory they imported confiscated by Canada Customs. Nobody has been charged over it, but the expense to purchase "thousands of seeds" -- presumably from coffee shops in Netherlands or from seed sellers in the U.K. -- is very considerable. Might be 30-60k in capital tied up in that inventory.

I would personally love to see Marco proceed and succeed with his action. However, I'm realistic enough to know that the risks are high, the cost is significant and the time, energy and commitment involved in carrying that action all the way through to the finish line is a weighty task indeed; it should not be undertaken lightly.

[Marco Renda]

My wholesale seed distribution company has been issued a Permit to IMPORT / EXPORT Marijuana Seeds and it's issued by Canada Customs & Revenue. We have a BIN # and pay taxes on all of our sales.

Take Care and Peace
Marco

[Marco Renda]

Originally Posted by fatigues

It does appear that one seed bank which Marco is involved with has had inventory they imported confiscated by Canada Customs. Nobody has been charged over it, but the expense to purchase "thousands of seeds" -- presumably from coffee shops in Netherlands or from seed sellers in the U.K. -- is very considerable. Might be 30-60k in capital tied up in that inventory.

I would personally love to see Marco proceed and succeed with his action. However, I'm realistic enough to know that the risks are high, the cost is significant and the time, energy and commitment involved in carrying that action all the way through to the finish line is a weighty task indeed; it should not be undertaken lightly.

It's alot more that 60k that's for sure!

Both my business partner and I are commited to proceding with this to the very end. Our lawyer has already filed the paperwork with the courts so we are definitely moving forward with our legal action against Health Canada.

I have been involved in legal battles against Health Canada in the past so I am well aware at what is involved. The only way to get things done here in Canada is through the courts as the SPINELESS POLITICIANS refuse to do what is right.

Take Care and Peace
Marco

[straintester]

Fatigues- As I mentioned you are more up to pare with the rules and regulations and your mind works quick so I dont have a response at the moment but of course WILL have one later.

YES I am most confused AND frustrated between the marijuana laws and HC guidelines.
Some of the guidelines are written right ON our licenses so how as a grower are we not to be confused?
Its not like there is a site where we can get all of this information
so I REALLY appreciate this discussion.