[Abja Roots]

Another thread sidetracked by Mistress...I learned from Krunch and put him/her on my ignore list.

There is almost certainly CA available to the plants in the standard tap water. It only makes sense that if they make a separate formula for hard water, then that means more CA is available and they are compensating for that.

This is super useful. I use House and Garden's complete line. It does make sense to figure out exactly what is going on. I basically figured it out through simply ramping it up until the plant could not take any more. Then pulling back. It works but is not ideal. Now I just use past experience to dictate my feeding levels. I'm sure there are some areas where I could improve my feeding, but it's hard to understand when the nutrient companies make it so complicated.

I will read up some more and hopefully be back to post up some useful information.

[joe fresh]

this thread is interesting, can someone do this one, its jacks professional 15-5-15 Ca-4Mg-2 and the K-trate as well(14-5-38)

[Tropic]

Originally Posted by *mistress*

cal is not the pnly element in tap. there can be lead, copper, nitrates, uranium, etc, etc... depending on what is used to raise ph over 7.0 for human use, can affect final cal availability. the cal in tap is not added by muni's it is variable.

In hard tap water, Calcium is present in much higher concentrations than lead, copper or even uranium... if your water had any of these in a concentration as high as Ca then you'd wouldn't survive long drinking it, same for your plants.

The GH Flora Micro Hard/Soft version is a good example of high Calcium availability in hard water. Wouldn't make sense to market a product if users didn't found a benefit from using it.

[*mistress*]

Originally Posted by Abja Roots

There is almost certainly CA available to the plants in the standard tap water. It only makes sense that if they make a separate formula for hard water, then that means more CA is available and they are compensating for that.

?
what a company makes has nothing to do w/ actual water type & composition. it is up to gardener to make sure adequate cal is present.
w/out water report, will be pure speculation as to cal/mag carbonate content - or any other metals, compounds or biological matter.

Originally Posted by ShroomDr

Your response seems to have softened to

?
there really was no response to any question.
only sharing what seem to work in another galaxy...

ShroomDr is not 'permitting anything' GH is contouring the lineup to accommodate for the Ca in a 'hard water' supply. GH Flora Mirco Hardwater lists the EXACT same Guaranteed Minimum Analysis as GH Flora Micro except an 80% drop in listed Ca.

not every gardener use only gh ferts... while they work well, they are not 'standard', they are what most have come accustomed to. some make own ferts to spec & dont use gh. same chemistry applies. any instructions that come w/ water-soluble ferts dont usually state dont mix cal w/ certain other products. some state mix 'p-k' type 'booster' w/ 'cal-mag' type products, but that maybe not good... most wont provide further detail, nor give specs on keeping n:ca ~even... if that not helpful, then dont apply & ignore, like other.

The question is why a hard water formula would have less Ca. Explaining why they separate Ca from other elements is irrelevant to the question.

the simple answer is that most greenhouse grade, water soluble ferts container no calcium & very little magnesium. they are usually supplemented. mag in tank w/ potash & cal fed in seprate tank, altogether.

since there is gardeners that dont mix ferts, comps try make '1-parts' or as close as they can to that. some work, some dont. gh fnb work well. even maxi-bloom work well... but maxi-b doesnt dissolve fully, @ once & flora nova bloom (slurry-type) require lots of agitation, etc, to get cal dissolved.

for these variables, & others, found water-solubles work better - w/ calcium nit supply sepparately.

I will continue to address your responses, although they did not address my hypothesis. A few dont make sense, and i would prefer as little nonsense as possible in this thread.

as for why gh make hard-water type fert, maybe ask gh... gh not only fert comp & chemistry is chemistry.
if have not gotten water report, only guess @ what form of cal is/isnt present & how much.

IF this applied to the point being made, it would insinuate that most greenhouse gardeners are using RO water. I do not believe this to be the case. Not any greenhouse around here.
I guess if your contention is there is no Ca in the water, this would be true, (although still not addressing the hypothesis). I contend that most greenhouse gardeners add additional Ca separately (and this is only because of poor transpiration in the greenhouse).

dont really get the hypothetical. gh has 1 brand w/ 2 versions. choose the 1 that suits your water type.
if dont have water type & carbonate content #'s, then seems should get that 1st...then select the version of micro needed.
if dont even have water-type or what is in water, what is point of posting about micro vs. hw micro? get water specs 1st, then get correct bottle.

No its not. can 03- is nothing (i am aware of). A Zero instead of a O is a major error, one you continue to make.

Generally information presented about chemical compounds (the usability of Ca) is going to carry A LOT more weight from someone who cares about the difference between Oxygen and a Zero.

gardeners should got/get point. some characters omitted/altered for
ca++ is calcium
n03- is nitrate nitrogen... just for correct notation

fwiw, for every molecule of calcium uptaken the roots release 2 hydrogen (H+) ions...

This 'discussion' is getting tiresome, and it is not why i started the thread. You seem to have backed yourself into a corner, and are looking for way out. I thought ive given you multiple outs, but you continue to dig, and grasp. The only useful thing brought up, is how Ca 'may react w/ other chems'. This is not a concern for the average grower, and not effecting most of the Ca present in the water.

He doesnt seem too concerned about unusable Ca or other compounds; perhaps thats a better place to discuss what 'ShroomDr permits tap water to (do).'

really was not discussing anything, but only shaing importance of feeding cal seprately & lots of it.

make scratch fert from dry salts, so gh & hw, or reg micro not issue for imaginary lady gardener.
only try to make point of cal assimilation. if that is not of use - dont use data... hope thread continues on well.

cheers

*edit*

Originally Posted by joe fresh

this thread is interesting, can someone do this one, its jacks professional 15-5-15 Ca-4Mg-2 and the K-trate as well(14-5-38)

jacks pro 15-5-15 (lx) @ 7.5g (1/2 tbsp)/gal

n-297 ppms
p-43
k-297
ca-79
mg-40
fe-1.48

k-trate @ 7.5g/gal

n-277
p-43
k-625
fe-1.38

[GrnMtnGrwr]

As others have said, great thread. Glad to see it took off a little better this time ShroomDr!

[ShroomDr]

(General Hydroponics Labels)
GH MaxiGro Powder (10-5-14) (NH4)1.5% (NO3)8.5% Mg2% Ca6.0% Fe.12% S3.0% Mn.05%
@5g/Gal
N 132
P 29
K 154
Mg 26
Ca 79
S 40
Fe 1.59
B NOT LISTED
Co NOT LISTED
Cu NOT LISTED
Mn 0.66
Mo NOT LISTED
Zn NOT LISTED
Derived from: Calcium Nitrate, Potassium Phosphate, Potassium Nitrate, Ammonium Nitrate, Magnesium Sulfate, Calcium Sulfate, Iron DTPA, Potassium Borate, Cobalt Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Ammonium Molybdate, Manganese EDTA, Zinc Sulfate.


GH MaxiBloom Powder (5-15-14) (NH4)0.5% (NO3)4.5% Mg3.5% Ca5.0% Fe.1% S4.0%
@5g/Gal
N 66
P 86
K 154
Mg 46
Ca 66
S 53
Fe 1.32
B NOT LISTED
Co NOT LISTED
Cu NOT LISTED
Mn NOT LISTED
Mo NOT LISTED
Zn NOT LISTED
Derived from: Calcium Nitrate, Potassium Phosphate, Potassium Nitrate Ammonium Nitrate, Magnesium Sulfate, Potassium Sulfate, Iron DTPA, Iron EDTA, Potassium Borate, Cobalt Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate, Ammonium Molybdate, Zinc Sulfate.

GH KoolBloom Powder (2-45-28) (NH4)2% Mg1% S1.5%
@1g/Gal
N 5
P 52
K 61
Mg 3
S 4
Derived from:Potassium Phosphate, Ammonium Phosphate, Ammonium Sulfate, Magnesium Sulfate, Potassium Sulfate.

Here are a few calculations i wanted to work out concerning GH powders, and i figured id post them too.


So MaxiGro @ 4g/Gal = 106N 23P 123K 21Mg 63Ca 1.3Fe
+ KoolBloom @ 1g/Gal = 5N 52P 61K 3Mg

This 4+1 = 111N 75K 184K 24Mg 63Ca 1.3Fe <=Probably needs Cal Mag without N.

Vs

MaxiBloom @ 7g/Gal = 92N P120 K216 64Mg 92Ca 1.8Fe

vs.

MaxiGro @ 2g/Gal = 53N 12P 62K 10Mg 32Ca 0.6Fe
+
MaxiBloom @ 2g/Gal = 26N 34P 62K 18Mg 26Ca .5Fe or @ 3g/Gal = 40N 52P 92K 28Mg 40Ca .8Fe


This 2+2 = 79N 46P 124K 28Mg 58Ca 1.1Fe
Or 2+3 = 93N 64P 154K 38Mg 72Ca 1.4Fe

both of these could use a gram or two (or 5) of KoolBloom, because this profile is awfully close to the h3ad/Rezipe

GH Flora Micro @6mL/Gal = 97N 0P 16K 97Ca 1.9Fe +
GH Flora Bloom @9mL/Gal = 0N 60P 91K 41Mg

6+9 = 97N 60P 107K 41Mg 97Ca 1.9Fe

============================== ==============


I also wanted to add (and expand on) this from another thread.

(NH4) vs. (NO3) levels and the N:Ca ratio in common liquid fertilizers.


Botanicare CNS17 Hydro Grow (3-2-4) (NH4).14% (NO3)2.86% Ca2.8%
20.4X more NO3 --- N:Ca = 1:0.93
Botanicare CNS17 Coco Grow (3-1-2) (NH4).14% (NO3)2.86% Ca3.6%
20.4X more NO3 --- N:Ca = 1:1.2
Botanicare CNS17 Hydro Bloom (2-2-5) (NH4)0.09% (NO3)1.91% Ca2%
21.2X more NO3 --- N:Ca = 1:1
Botanicare CNS17 Coco Bloom (2-2-3) (NH4)0.09% (NO3)1.91% Ca2.5%
21.2X more NO3 --- N:Ca = 1:1.25


GH Floranova Bloom (4-8-7) (NH4)0.25% (NO3)3.75% Ca4.0%
15X NO3 N:Ca 1:1
GH Flora Micro (5-0-1) (NH4)0.3% (NO3)4.7% Ca5.0%
15.6X more NO3 --- N:Ca = 1:1
GH FloraDuo Grow (sample) (6-0-6) (NH4)1.9% (NO3)4.1% Ca2.6%
2.16X more NO3 --- N:Ca = 1:0.43
GH MaxiBloom Powder (5-15-14) (NH4)0.5% (NO3)4.5% Ca5.0%
9X more NO3 --- N:Ca = 1:1
GH MaxiGro Powder (10-5-14) (NH4)1.5% (NO3)8.5% Ca6.0%
5.67X more NO3 --- N:Ca = 1:0.6


Cutting Edge Solution Micro (6-0-0) (NH4)0.3% (NO3)5.7% Ca5%
19X more NO3 --- N:Ca = 1:0.83
Technaflora BC Boost (3-0-2) Ca3.21% No Ammonium (*N also in other bottle)
No Ammonium --- N:Ca = 1:0.8
Bloom Advanced Floriculture Coco Flower A (5.4-0-5.6) (NH4).36% (NO3)5.04% Ca4.14% (*N also in other bottle)
23.3X more NO3 --- N:Ca 1:0.49


AN Sensi Bloom A (4.3-0-3.1) (NH4)0.1% (NO3)4.2% Ca1.7% (*N also in other bottle)
47.5X more NO3 --- N:Ca 1:0.3
AN Sensi Bloom A (2-4-0) Ca2.1% No Ammonium (*N also in other bottle)
No Ammonium --- N:Ca = 1:0.53

Interesting thread!

A question first: How much calcium needed hemp at all?

[Metalhead419]

Just wanted to say thanks to the OP for all the great info in the thread. Probably one of the better threads I have read on IC in a while, thanks again.

[Metalhead419]

Went ahead and did dyna gro grow and bloom.

Dyna-Gro Grow (7-9-5) (NH4)2.6% (NO3)4.4% Mg0.5% Ca2.0% Fe0.1% S0.05% Mn0.05%
@10ml/Gal
N 242
P 136
K 143
Mg 17
Ca 69
S 2
Fe 3.4552
B .691
Co 0.0518
Cu 1.7276
Mn 1.7276
Mo 0.0311
Zn 1.7276
Derived From: Ammonium nitrate, Calcium nitrate, Potassium nitrate, Nickel nitrate, Mono-ammonium phosphate, Mono-potassium phosphate, Cobaltous sulfate, Magnesium sulfate, Boric acid, Molybdic acid, Potassium chloride, Manganese, Iron, Copper, and Zinc.

Dyna Gro Bloom (3-12-6) (NH4) 0.7% (NO3) 2.3% Mg0.5% Ca2%
Fe0.1% S0.09% Mn0.05%
@10ml/Gal
N 103
P 181
K 172
Mg 17
Ca 69
S 3
Fe 3.4552
B .691
Co 0.0518
Cu 1.7276
Mn 1.7276
Mo 0.0311
Zn 1.7276
Derived From: Ammonium Nitrate, Calcium Nitrate, Potassium Nitrate, Ammonium Phosphate, Potassium Phosphate, Cobalt Sulfate, Magnesium Sulfate, Boric Acid, Molybdic Acid, Potassium Chloride, Manganese, Iron, Copper, Zinc Disodium Ethylenediamine Tetra Acetate (EDTA)

[Dr.TomAdams]

Thank You Shroom Dr