[ShroomDr]

Originally Posted by *mistress*

most water is not additional calcium... the calcium has to be in soluble form to be assimilated by the pl@nt. the calcium in tap may/may not be available. there may also be copper, lead, nitrates, etc that alter final profile.

I am far from an expert in water quality/analysis. However, to say that tap water is not a source of Calcium seems incorrect. What % of Ca, in tap water, do you think will not be usable to the plant?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_water
Calcium usually enters the water as either calcium carbonate (CaCO3), in the form of limestone and chalk, or calcium sulfate (CaSO4), in the form of other mineral deposits. The predominant source of magnesium is dolomite (CaMg(CO3)2).

Again, i am not a water quality expert, (wiki's not a great source), nor do i understand all the intricacies of water chemistry, however calcium carbonate (CES Plant AMP), and dolomite are both used here by growers.

I dont see how someone could say that tap water is not a source of Ca (Given that 85% of homes in the US have 'hard water').

(I have not looked hard, but i have never seen a 'hose-attachment-having garden fertilizer' that lists Ca anywhere near the N levels in the GMA).

[*mistress*]

calcium sulfate is basically gypsum & not that soluble for plants. only partially solble, added to soils to leach over tyme...
calcium carbonate is basically limestone. depending on particle size, may also not be available to plants. also added to leach over tyme...

both may react w/ other chems to form insoluble solids (precipitates).

depending on how the water is treated & other chemicals added, the calcium may not be available @ all... each muni has its own ph water must be kept @... mostly over 7.0, as humans prefer a 7.0+ ph... this also may affect solubility of the calcium & ability of plant to uptake...

water report of specific water used should give type of cal & mag in water & other elements that may be present...

Example 1 - when calcium carbonate, in the form of lime, is added to an acidic waterbody:

-the lime will cause the water to become less acidic (the pH will become higher);
-as the water becomes less acidic, phosphorus, a necessary nutrient, will be converted to forms that then can be used by plants, potentially stimulating their growth.

Example 2 - when a waterbody is not acidic (with a pH above 8.2) and contains an abundance of calcium carbonate:

-calcium carbonate will combine with the phosphorus in the water to form a solid called a "precipitate", that can sink to the bottom or be attached to aquatic plants;
-plants and algae will be deprived of phosphorus and their growth can be slowed.

Calcium carbonate is poorly soluble in pure water...Two hydrated phases of calcium carbonate, monohydrocalcite, CaCO3·H2O and ikaite, CaCO3·6H2O, may precipitate from water at ambient conditions and persist as metastable phases.

can03-, or cacl far more effective for application as water soluble fert. maybe...

maybe, not rely on hard water for cal until find form of cal in water, & other elements added to water to make & keep ph over 7.0... muni water is adjusted for humans, not pl@nts...

most simply use ca-n03- or ca-cl- for cal... soluble & immediately available to plants. no need to be converted to other forms for solubility...

Originally Posted by ShroomDr

(I have not looked hard, but i have never seen a 'hose-attachment-having garden fertilizer' that lists Ca anywhere near the N levels in the GMA).

gma?
cal-nit usually 15%n-19%ca... fnb is 4%n-4%ca.... most of the h!dr0-type ferts (pre-mixed liquids liquids) can only mix small amounts of cal to their mix, or precipitates may form.... dry ferts usually have cal separate. if not, in small amounts...fnb is 'slurry' type that keeps cal suspended in bottom of bottle, to be shaken vigorously (as bottle state) - to get cal into solution, maybe...

what is 'hose-attachmen-having'?

ca is macro-nutrient & needed in large amounts. if not, maybe dont get best final fruit. simpler when just added soluble cal seprately...

[ShroomDr]

Originally Posted by *mistress*

gma?

GMA = Guaranteed Minimum Analysis

what is 'hose-attachment-having (garden fertilizer)'?

I have added Advanced Nutrients Sensi Bloom (old and new) to the list, and tried to format it for easier reading!


All Ca in tap water, may not be available to the plant, but the fact that GH makes a Flora Micro HardWater, with 1/5 the Ca of Flora Micro, has to mean they are considering the tap water as a major source of Ca.
How else could someone explain the 80% drop in Ca, the plants must be getting it from somewhere...

[*mistress*]

dont want to feed pl@nts mg/hose attachment type anyway... usually has urea & lots of ammonium nitrogen - which h!dro type grown tomato dont prefer.

All Ca in tap water, may not be available to the plant, but the fact that GH makes a Flora Micro HardWater, with 1/5 the Ca of Flora Micro, has to mean they are considering the tap water as a major source of Ca.
How else could someone explain the 80% drop in Ca, the plants must be getting it from somewhere...

it can be explained by fact that most dry type ferts dont contain any cal - it is generallyt always fed separately to make sure it get thru w/out antagonisms or precipitation or reactions w/ other chems...

form(chem compound) of calcium most important variable.

limestone & gypsum are not immediately available, like cal chloride or cal nit, which gh may also consider some gardeners would use, instead of tap for cal.

often, other chemicals are also placed into muni tap, which may alter cal availability.

most dry fert dont contain any cal... but not due to tap having some, but because tomato, basil, pepper etc greenhouse gardeners just ca-n03-....

as for n & ca being equal ppm, they will likey that @ end of flowering... mg for general hobby gardneing, not for intensive fruit/flower cr0pping.

see maxi-b & fnb. they both have same % of n:ca, although even those may precipitate if not shaken/mixed very well...

if really want to provide cal & mag in carbonate form, maybe try gh's camg++, fromtheir gen org line... it is 5:1 cal:mag (0-0-0-5-1), w/ molasses (sugars tend to chelate & buffer solution & keep stable), & no nitrogen... works well though alternating form of cal applied also seem good rotation...

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.ph...5&postcount=27

[ShroomDr]

Not trying to get into an argument , but the explanation doesn't really fit the hypothesis.

the fact that GH makes a Flora Micro HardWater, with 1/5 the Ca of Flora Micro, has to mean they are considering the tap water as a major source of Ca.
How else could someone explain the 80% drop in Ca, the plants must be getting it from somewhere...

Originally Posted by *mistress*

it can be explained by fact that most dry type ferts dont contain any cal - it is generallyt always fed separately to make sure it get thru w/out antagonisms or precipitation or reactions w/ other chems...

The GH Flora Series is liquid, i dont see why your 'dry type ferts' explanation would even be relevant (The very reason they these liquids are separated into 'two parts' is specifically because of your explanation [antagonisms, precipitation, reactions between molecules]).

Flora Micro is the only bottle that has Ca. There is none in Flora Grow or Flora Bloom, so there is no other source of Ca in the General Hydroponics Flora Series.
1.) The Flora Series has two versions of Micro, everything is identical except one has 80% less calcium.
2.) This version with the lower Ca is labeled the HardWater formula.
3.) Hard water insinuates Ca in the water (among other things).

limestone & gypsum are not immediately available...

often, other chemicals are also placed into muni tap, which may alter cal availability.

I agree with all of this, its not in contention, however i feel you may be OVERSELLING the 'may alter cal availability'.

Again, I dont know much about water analysis, but if hard water is an excess of Ca...
And the formula suggested for hard water has 80% less Ca than the regular formula....
It seems pretty easy to me; 2 and 2 is generally 4.

most dry fert dont contain any cal... but not due to tap having some, but because tomato, basil, pepper etc greenhouse gardeners just ca-n03-....

Huh? You lost me here and the ellipsis are yours. It seems like you are saying there is no calcium in the formula CaNO3?
Or was it, as it reads 'ca-n zero three-'?
If so, I dont know what "greenhouse gardeners just ca-n03-" is suppose to mean.
Perhaps you mean greenhouse gardeners foliar feed with calcium nitrate (preventing Blossom End Rot), but i am making inferences based on my own knowledge of calnitrate and BER; the blurb posted wasn't too clear (and greenhouse [high] humidity conditions cause Ca issues [necessitating a fix]).


No one is suggesting using miracle grow for MJ (or those hose sprayers), just pointing out N:Ca ratios, in other fertilizers. Whether they had lower Ca levels could have been coincidence, totally unrelated, and/or just not listed in the guaranteed minimum analysis.
The whole thing was an anecdote, i thought could be related and should be noted.

see maxi-b & fnb. they both have same % of n:ca, although even those may precipitate if not shaken/mixed very well...

Is Maxibloom 1:1 N:Ca too? FNB is made by General Hydroponics, so they stay with the general ratio of 1:1. That doesn't surprise me, in fact if they used a different ratio, i would say that would be noteworthy.

(Both of these assume equal parts A+B, ive never actually used AN)
The old AN Sensi Bloom A+B seemed to be 1:0.3 and the new Sensi Bloom A+B is 1:0.52.
These are the lowest N:Ca ratios ive seen (Im not sure what Ca is in the rest of their line up, lord knows they have enough products, but im not aware of a Ca specific product).

All water is not created equal, some sources are obviously better than others, and some people with (very) hard water will not be able to get away with using Flora Micro Hardwater (their water is just too poor quality), but i do not believe this 'unusable Ca' problem effects most people, and that their plants are sourcing Ca from the water. (If this were not the case Epsom Salt [Mg and S] would be suggested for RO users not Cal-Mag [RO users generally complain about low Mg levels].)

Im no expert, i am just piecing together what appear to be simple 'logistical facts' (once all the information is presented). I may be wrong, i implore my correction, but what i feel has been presented seems more cautionary tail, and scientific possibilities, not average growers probabilities. One could tell a grower they need a RO system and CalMag, but this is not always (or normally) necessary. Hell, there are some users who claim they like the pH buffering abilities of the tap water (i think these were all recirculating systems) and switched back.


Again not trying to argue, just asking for clarity, I dont disagree with the principles you have laid out, just possibly/probability of their application, and I will happily say i am incorrect if there is another reason for an 80% drop in Ca with a formula for hard water (other than the excess Ca in hard water).

I've never heard of anything causing calcium bicarbonate in tap water to be unavailable to plants. I have read that too much can lock out Iron.

This is a great thread!

[*mistress*]

Originally Posted by ShroomDr

The GH Flora Series is liquid, i dont see why your 'dry type ferts' explanation would even be relevant (The very reason they these liquids are separated into 'two parts' is specifically because of your explanation [antagonisms, precipitation, reactions between molecules]).

liquid ferts were once dry ferts. the precipitation can still occur, even if the elements/compounds are dissolved. it is the mixing of certain chems in high concentrations that causes new compounds to form, which may.may not be available to pl@nt.

Flora Micro is the only bottle that has Ca. There is none in Flora Grow or Flora Bloom, so there is no other source of Ca in the General Hydroponics Flora Series.
1.) The Flora Series has two versions of Micro, everything is identical except one has 80% less calcium.
2.) This version with the lower Ca is labeled the HardWater formula.
3.) Hard water insinuates Ca in the water (among other things).

the point is to have a separate source of calcium, ideally held in its own tank. if ShroomDr permits tap water to e the source of cal - go ahead.
again, maybe check w/ water report for form of cal in the tap...

I agree with all of this, its not in contention, however i feel you may be OVERSELLING the 'may alter cal availability'.

not selling anything. if tap-cal works for gardeners, use it. only found that separately feeding cal work well...

Again, I dont know much about water analysis, but if hard water is an excess of Ca...
And the formula suggested for hard water has 80% less Ca than the regular formula....
It seems pretty easy to me; 2 and 2 is generally 4.

cal is not the pnly element in tap. there can be lead, copper, nitrates, uranium, etc, etc... depending on what is used to raise ph over 7.0 for human use, can affect final cal availability. the cal in tap is not added by muni's it is variable.

Huh? You lost me here and the ellipsis are yours. It seems like you are saying there is no calcium in the formula CaNO3?
Or was it, as it reads 'ca-n zero three-'?
If so, I dont know what "greenhouse gardeners just ca-n03-" is suppose to mean.

can03- is calcium nitrate. check 'derived from' on most any fert bottle... what is commonly used for cal & nitrogen in h!dr0 type ferts.

Perhaps you mean greenhouse gardeners foliar feed with calcium nitrate (preventing Blossom End Rot), but i am making inferences based on my own knowledge of calnitrate and BER; the blurb posted wasn't too clear (and greenhouse [high] humidity conditions cause Ca issues [necessitating a fix]).

cal required by plant may be +/- of n%, but it works better. whatever makes your plants happy.

Is Maxibloom 1:1 N:Ca too? FNB is made by General Hydroponics, so they stay with the general ratio of 1:1. That doesn't surprise me, in fact if they used a different ratio, i would say that would be noteworthy.

yes, mabi-b is 5%n, 5%ca...

Again not trying to argue, just asking for clarity, I dont disagree with the principles you have laid out, just possibly/probability of their application, and I will happily say i am incorrect if there is another reason for an 80% drop in Ca with a formula for hard water (other than the excess Ca in hard water).

because most greenhouse gardeners supply cal separately...

[greentrich]

This is a great thread!

Fuck ya it is. Wish I could contribute, just been lurkin' and learnin'. Chemistry is fun.

Shroom, Mistress...keep going plz. All this knowledge is exciting me. Might have to dance a jig

Thanks for the great contributions!

[ShroomDr]

Originally Posted by greentrich

Shroom, Mistress...keep going plz.

I would rather not, but apparently its necessary.

I think i have stated my hypothesis enough times; it hasnt been addressed, only skirted with things that are unrelated to the actual hypothesis. I dont disagree with the science presented, just its relevance to the hypothesis.

For those who need a recap

Originally Posted by ShroomDr

POST #26
Given the fact that most water is an additional source of Ca

Originally Posted by *mistress*

POST #29
most water is not additional calcium..

MY HYPOTHESIS FOR THE THIRD TIME

the fact that GH makes a Flora Micro HardWater, with 1/5 the Ca of Flora Micro, has to mean they are considering the tap water as a major source of Ca.
How else could someone explain the 80% drop in Ca, the plants must be getting it from somewhere...

Your response seems to have softened to

if ShroomDr permits tap water to e the source of cal - go ahead.

ShroomDr is not 'permitting anything' GH is contouring the lineup to accommodate for the Ca in a 'hard water' supply. GH Flora Mirco Hardwater lists the EXACT same Guaranteed Minimum Analysis as GH Flora Micro except an 80% drop in listed Ca.


The question is why a hard water formula would have less Ca. Explaining why they separate Ca from other elements is irrelevant to the question.


I will continue to address your responses, although they did not address my hypothesis. A few dont make sense, and i would prefer as little nonsense as possible in this thread.

Originally Posted by *mistress*

because most greenhouse gardeners supply cal separately...

IF this applied to the point being made, it would insinuate that most greenhouse gardeners are using RO water. I do not believe this to be the case. Not any greenhouse around here.
I guess if your contention is there is no Ca in the water, this would be true, (although still not addressing the hypothesis). I contend that most greenhouse gardeners add additional Ca separately (and this is only because of poor transpiration in the greenhouse).

Originally Posted by *mistress*

can03- is calcium nitrate

No its not. can 03- is nothing (i am aware of). A Zero instead of a O is a major error, one you continue to make.

Generally information presented about chemical compounds (the usability of Ca) is going to carry A LOT more weight from someone who cares about the difference between Oxygen and a Zero.



This 'discussion' is getting tiresome, and it is not why i started the thread. You seem to have backed yourself into a corner, and are looking for way out. I thought ive given you multiple outs, but you continue to dig, and grasp. The only useful thing brought up, is how Ca 'may react w/ other chems'. This is not a concern for the average grower, and not effecting most of the Ca present in the water.

Here is a great thread

Originally Posted by BigToke

BigTokes ~ Basic Water Chemistry!!
Did you know ~ that instead of buying an expensive R/O filtration systems that you could have simply bought nutrients that was formulated to meet you hard water needs? Expensive filtration system are made for people how are drinking there water, not growing in it (in most cases)!! With the exceptions of very polluted water conditions...

...The water that I recommend to use the most in the Bio-Bucket System is simply tap-water, most tap-water has a buffering capacity that is due to carbonates and bicarbonates.

...this is just another reason that I recommend tap-water if possible.

He doesnt seem too concerned about unusable Ca or other compounds; perhaps thats a better place to discuss what 'ShroomDr permits tap water to (do).'