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BREEDING WITH FEMINIZED SEEDS PRO'S & CON'S?

R

REDEYE_420

Hi all I've seen a couple of threads on ICMag and other forums where some people have no qualms with using 'feminized' seeds within a breeding program and yet in other threads people seem to be highly against it.

-Are there any of you out there that have used feminized seeds in a breeding/pollen chucking program successfully?

-If so how did the progeny turn out?

-Did you encounter any problems through it's lifespan?

-What feminized strains did you use?

-Did you use Fem x Fem or did you use Fem x Regular?

Here's what Ed Rosenthal wrote back in 2004 on the topic:
Breeding feminized plants
By Ed Rosenthal - Tuesday, October 19 2004
ASK ED
What happens when feminized plants get polinated?
What would happen if a feminized plant was fertilized by a male plant or if a feminized plant fertilized itself with female pollen?
Troy,
DB

A feminized plant is a plant grown from a seed resulting from pollen from a female plant. There are several ways to induce a female plant to produce male flowers. The pollen has only female genetics. All the seeds are "feminized".

A plant grown from feminized seed fertilized by a male will produce both male and female plants. If the feminized plant was induced to produce male flowers and then pollinated itself or another plant the pollen would contain only female genetics so the seeds would be feminized.

One problem that may occur over generations of feminizing plants is that you may be inadvertently selecting for hermaphroditism. When plants are induced to produce male flowers, the ones that are most likely to respond to the process, whether chemical, hormonal, light or age techniques are used, are the plants with the most tendency to hermaphroditism. Each time you use a feminizing technique you are inadvertently selecting for hermaphroditism. Each generation increases the chances of producing hermaphrodite plants.

Feminizing is best used to produce the final generation of plants, those that are to be planted for bud. These can also be used as part of an elaborate breeding strategy using both feminized and non-feminized plants.
Click to expand...

It would be interesting to hear some fresh views on this subject.

Peace.
 
DocLeaf

DocLeaf

procreationist
ICMag Donor
Veteran
Forget Ed Rosenthal,, that would be our first advice/comment,, ppl like them lead many a grower down the wrong garden path... the only way to really know is to do it ya self!

It's possible to make feminized plants make seed,, seeds that grow into ganja plants,,

picture.php


Painted Lady = Critical (fem.) x W.Widow x Free Tibet (reg.),, (topped)

,, here's a different one,, (untopped)

picture.php



We are currently testing progeny to see if feminized stock is viable for breeding,, exactly the question you asked here (good question) ,, so watch this space ,, we plan to answer it :canabis:

Overall,, forget about females,, it's the male plants that hold the future of cannabis genetics in their endosperm!

Hope this helps
 
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J

JackTheGrower

just some input for the thread.

1999 I bought 4 strains from CBCB ( medical store )

All but one was feminized.

The one was a known Hermaphrodite.

Crossing the three feminized strains with that one hermaphrodite resulted in two strains that didn't show signs of male flowers and all offspring were female ( 6 years worth )

One strain did show hermaphrodite traits and was not grown again.

Later the selfed seeds from the original hermaphrodite were grown ( S1's) and also the F1's made in the Hermaphrodite crossed with the two Feminized were grown together and seeds were made. ( S1 X F1 )

Those ( S1 X F1 ) seeds were grown this last grow and all 5 were completely Male.


It's what i have seen.. More pieces of the puzzle.


Ernst

Edit.. Would those "male" plants emit female pollen? I should test that huh.... I could save those "Feminized" genetics.
 
DocLeaf

DocLeaf

procreationist
ICMag Donor
Veteran
To add... we've never seen a feminized clone (cutting from feminized seed stock) over 5 years old,, if anyone has a photo out there,, then please throw it up!

Even if it's a clone of a clone,, or clone of a clone of a clone that's feminized,, we've NEVER seen one!

Overall,, stay away from feminized stock unless you only plan to grow it and smoke it (like we would cucumbers,, or any other fem. seeds),, then they are fine.

Otherwise these seeds are NOT ideal for as breeding stock,, in standard practise,, (we are experimenting here,, and sure wouldn't encourage other ppl to cross fem. seeds into regular seed lines for the fun of it!)... just like we wouldnt auto-flowerring stock! its a non-brainer!

,, stick to normal / regular seeds for breeding with IMO... it's better in the long run for every grower that grows those seeds in the future,, far fewer complications :D

Peace n love
 
B

blazesck

DocLeaf said:
To add... we've never seen a feminized clone (cutting from feminized seed stock) over 5 years old,, if anyone has a photo out there,, then please throw it up!

Even if it's a clone of a clone,, or clone of a clone of a clone that's feminized,, we've NEVER seen one!

Overall,, stay away from feminized stock unless you only plan to grow it and smoke it (like we would cucumbers,, or any other fem. seeds),, then they are fine.

Otherwise these seeds are NOT ideal for as breeding stock,, in standard practise,, (we are experimenting here,, and sure wouldn't encourage other ppl to cross fem. seeds into regular seed lines for the fun of it!)... just like we wouldnt auto-flowerring stock! its a non-brainer!

,, stick to normal / regular seeds for breeding with IMO... it's better in the long run for every grower that grows those seeds in the future,, far fewer complications :D

Peace n love
Click to expand...

I've never considered the "shelf-life" of a feminized strain in cutting form. What happens to the strains after 5 years? We grow a White Widow from a pack of feminized seeds that we really like, it's only been around two years so I guess we'll get to see how long it lasts.

We crossed this White Widow to a very sativa PPP pheno, our plan was to never work with them because the White Widow came from feminized stock but I'm realizing now we've already given some of them away. Reading this thread makes me want to do some work with them and see what could happen as a result of the feminized female.
 
J

JackTheGrower

blazesck said:
I've never considered the "shelf-life" of a feminized strain in cutting form. What happens to the strains after 5 years? We grow a White Widow from a pack of feminized seeds that we really like, it's only been around two years so I guess we'll get to see how long it lasts.

We crossed this White Widow to a very sativa PPP pheno, our plan was to never work with them because the White Widow came from feminized stock but I'm realizing now we've already given some of them away. Reading this thread makes me want to do some work with them and see what could happen as a result of the feminized female.
Click to expand...

Yeah that is interesting.

I would think the production grower would change stock as the taste/demand of customers changes. It would be the profit motive.

So are we thinking that a cutting goes bad in just 5 clonings or 50 months?

I do have to say that a breeding program would include both male and female sexes and many plants grown out over time.

I'm not sure of the value in crafting folk lore on feminized seeds.

Where I am at in my thinking is there is much more to learn.
 
*HazeLover*

*HazeLover*

Member
REDEYE_420 said:
-Are there any of you out there that have used feminized seeds in a breeding/pollen chucking program successfully?
Click to expand...
- yep, more than once I used feminised seeds for "breeding"

REDEYE_420 said:
-If so how did the progeny turn out?
Click to expand...
-:D :D :D an example:
picture.php


REDEYE_420 said:
-Did you encounter any problems through it's lifespan?
Click to expand...
-not til now (took cuttings of all of them, no problems til now)

REDEYE_420 said:
-What feminized strains did you use?
Click to expand...
-I used mainly GSC femmed beans (SSH, LemonSkunk and Alaskan Ice) as regular onces I used MilkyWay as males (KiwiSeeds)

REDEYE_420 said:
-Did you use Fem x Fem or did you use Fem x Regular?
Click to expand...
-I did Reg x Fem (Mt cook x ssh)
- Fem x Reg (Alaskan Ice x Milky Way)
- Fem x Fem (Lemonskunk x SSH)
- selfed Feminised SSH

had no hermies so far (Alaskan Ice x Milky Way is still in testing, aswell as SSH F2 but it looks quiet promising) and no problems what so ever, for pics watch my thread in the greenhouse seeds section or album. :2cents:

Peace&Love

Hazelover
 
J

JackTheGrower

I don't know of any real issues with using feminized plants in breeding. Is there any scientific works to draw on?

We should question. Sure we can create a marketable quality for the seed product and I can see how certified seeds should fetch a great price; that's a no-brainer.
However what is the truth on a genetic that has had a feminized process used to produce seeds? By saying "Don't do it" are we actually helping folks to learn horticulture or is this a business concept?

.. I'm stuck home so I have time to post...
 
Texicannibus

Texicannibus

noob
Veteran
Look into genetic drift and mutations ... there are some risks although no large scale studies exist. Nobody knows the full effect mostly speculation but there is some scientific studies that the speculation is based on.
 
J

Jeff Johnson

Member
I have been growing since 1974, but I took a risk this year and bought my first pack of feminized seeds: the GN femmed pack, indica mix E.

Then, the xxxxxxxx xxxx xxxx sent me three GN femmed Lemon Skunk seeds as freebies...

I can't resist at least trying to cross these to my all time favorite strain, Maple Leaf Indica. And if they subsequent progeny hermies on me in 2011, I still won't know for sure, since I live in Minnesota where conditions are challenging to say the least.

As a nonexpert who learned most of what I know on the mighty days of overgrow from Two Heads etc., I have seen so little on this.

And if I could editorialize, how has this not been compassed out yet? How can several people with massive experience on one thread have completely opposite views of the possibilities?
 
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J

JackTheGrower

Jeff Johnson said:
I have been growing since 1974, but I took a risk this year and bought my first pack of feminized seeds: the GN femmed pack, indica mix E.

Then, the xxxxxxxx seed bank sent me three GN femmed Lemon Skunk seeds as freebies...

I can't resist at least trying to cross these to my all time favorite strain, Maple Leaf Indica. And if they subsequent progeny hermies on me in 2011, I still won't know for sure, since I live in Minnesota where conditions are challenging to say the least.

As a nonexpert who learned most of what I know on the mighty days of overgrow from Two Heads etc., I have seen so little on this.

And if I could editorialize, how has this not been compassed out yet? How can several people with massive experience on one thread have completely opposite views of the possibilities?
Click to expand...


On the baseless concept side of things.. I have thought that Feminized are like a moment in Genetic time that is made into a profitable business..

Is there some "Gold" in this form of genetic distribution? Is it ultimately short-changing the industry by delivering genetics to the masses without really knowing what is being shared? Are we being warned not to search and explore what may be a Gold mine of unrealized genetic potential on the grounds that it might be queer?

It's always about money... That doesn't change.. Certified seeds will always have a place in industry.

Oh well.. I am stuck home and have a lot of time to post today.
 
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C

Cinderella99

The pros are that female selection of a p1 has already been achieved (hopefully) and there should be a greater proportion of female progeny. The cons are primarily the potential to capture a hermie tendency:

First off, I'd never "double back" a fem and cross it with a fem-- too much probability of incorporating a hermy trait...

Having said that. it stands to reason that a lot depends on how the fem strain was created. In other words, if a spectacular female was chosen...Then state of the art S1 fem techniques were applied...Wouldn't expect progeny to be any more herm oriented...

If the (chosen) P1 S1 had the most state of the art and extreme chemical stressors applied to produce male flowers-- the kind of stressors that NO female plant could resist-- then why would we expect hermie genes to be created at this point and subsequently more likely to be passed on? Don't believe in genetic alchemy lol

However, if breeders have a bunch of plants and group stress them with techniques that are less than perfect...You'll end up with a higher proportion of seeds that are herm given...laws of probability and statistics operating here as well as nature...My 2 centavos :)

I'm not a scientist (by any stretch lol), but I can't see how there'd be anything that would increase the probability of hermie traits in an S1's progeny just because it came from an S1-- I think the issue lies in probability of ending up with seeds that have weaker resistance to turning hermie...

I don't think an S1, by definition, inherently stands to transfer hermie prone genes. If I'm wrong, please show me the science behind your disagreement. Thanks!
 
J

JackTheGrower

We are still using economics as our guide! Are we really knowing what will make the best cannabis?
 
The End Is Near

The End Is Near

Member
I would personally love to use only females as breeding stock, from fem stock or not, because you get a better feel of what the final product will be like, which is smokeable bud, not males. I think it's total bullshit that people will rip on fem seeds/breeding when there hasn't been solid evidence that femming definitely gives hermies. Regular beans give hermies too and lots of people had no problems with fem seeds. Maybe even a male used for breeding passes on stronger hermie tendencies than female pollen.
 
R

REDEYE_420

Some good points and information peeps...

Some good points and information peeps...

DocLeaf said:
We are currently testing progeny to see if feminized stock is viable for breeding,, exactly the question you asked here (good question) ,, so watch this space ,, we plan to answer it :canabis:
Click to expand...
Hi DocLeaf, cheers for dropping in. I look forward to seeing your results. Have you got an active thread where you are documenting your results? If so could you please give me the link.
DocLeaf said:
stick to normal / regular seeds for breeding with IMO... it's better in the long run for every grower that grows those seeds in the future,, far fewer complications :D
Click to expand...
So the only complications thus far are the possibilities of further generations throwing out hermie bananas? Is that right DocLeaf, or have you encountered any other problems?
TopShelf said:
Just growing a feminized plant and using as a clone mother is ok isn't it?
Click to expand...
Hi TopShelf, yes that's fine.

*HazeLover* said:
- yep, more than once I used feminised seeds for "breeding"
-I did Reg x Fem (Mt cook x ssh)
- Fem x Reg (Alaskan Ice x Milky Way)
- Fem x Fem (Lemonskunk x SSH)
- selfed Feminised SSH
had no hermies so far (Alaskan Ice x Milky Way is still in testing, aswell as SSH F2 but it looks quiet promising) and no problems what so ever, for pics watch my thread in the greenhouse seeds section or album.
Click to expand...
Hi *HazeLover*, cheers for the detailed reply. Hey post a link to your 'breeding with fem/reg seeds here if you want? It would be good to have all of the information regarding this subject in one thread-or at least linked through one thread. Good luck with your project.
JackTheGrower said:
I don't know of any real issues with using feminized plants in breeding. Is there any scientific works to draw on?
Click to expand...
Me neither, does anybody know of any scientific work in this area?
Texicannibus said:
Look into genetic drift and mutations ... there are some risks although no large scale studies exist. Nobody knows the full effect mostly speculation but there is some scientific studies that the speculation is based on.
Click to expand...
I'll have a peek in there, cheers Texicannibus.

Also some good points there Cinderella99, so if top quality selection and stress factors were not adhered to then the probabilities of future generations throwing out hermies is raised substantially-is that right?

Peace.
 
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