[krunchbubble]

Originally Posted by spurr

I hope my efforts help folks to understand why Pure Flower is Pure Bullshit. People are much better off using a PK booster that has phosphates...or better yet, only boost K during per-flowering because boosting P is a waste and goes against goals of most growers (i.e. short, stalky plants).

ive got pics, yields and bud size that shows differently.........

[spurr]

Originally Posted by grapeman

I don't buy snake oil. I also value my experience of 2 decades using phosphites over your writing. It costs $5000/acre to grow table grapes. I don't waste a penny on snake oil...... or bad advice.

So there we are.

You surprise me, you have taken my advise before, see what I wrote to you in my other thread on phosphites. It's a fact you are wrong, phosphites do not directly provide P to plants, you can't refute this.

If you see plants with sufficient P from phosphites it's due to microbes (bacteria) breaking it down, which takes awhile. You have tested it outdoors, in soil, no? ...so there we are

Also, above you mention AM fungi, well, sorry to say, but phosphites are systemic fungicides that do not get converted into P once inside the plant (ex. as folair spray). This is why phosphites will inhibit (i.e. prevent) AM fungi infection of host roots. If host roots are pre-infected with Am fungi, and then phosphites are sprayed onto plants, the AM fungi will loose infection and not be able to help the plant. Phosphites prevent AM fungi (and other endomycorrhzial fungi) from helping your grapes, again, you can't refute this and be correct in doing so.

Please, re-read what I wrote with an open mind, because you my friend, are wrong that phosphites are a good replacement for phosphates. There is a mountain of studies and data and proof showing why phosphites do not provide P for plants directly.

Also, please see the pic in my above post. If a cannabis grower, ex. a hydro grower, only used phosphites for P, their plants would be P deficient in no time and suffer badly.

[spurr]

Originally Posted by krunchbubble

ive got pics, yields and bud size that shows differently.........

Then either you are not using only phosphites for P, or you are growing with lots of microbes that are breaking down the phosphites into forms that the plant can use as P. There is no other explanation because phosphites do not provide P nutrition to plants directly. This is not debatable, it's facts of chemistry and botany.

[spurr]

@ all,

Please, don't just take a manufacturer word on this topic. Has anyone who is refuting what I wrote actually read any of the studies and papers I posted? Or the paper DonkDBZ posted in this thread (e.g. from my post with the pic in it)?

I do not understand why people have to fight me tooth-and-nail when I try to show inaccuracies in claims, and try to debunk BS in the cannabis world...just because what I often write is new info, and goes against what is thought to be correct info, should not mean what I write is dismissed off hand. I am correct in my claims about phosphites, in that they are a very poor source of P, but a very good systemic fungicide.

[spurr]

EDIT:

Above I made a few typos, spelling "phosphites" as "phosphetes", sorry about that.

[real ting]

Originally Posted by spurr

I hope my efforts help folks to understand why Pure Flower is Pure Bullshit. People are much better off using a PK booster that has phosphates...or better yet, only boost K during per-flowering because boosting P is a waste and goes against goals of most growers (i.e. short, stalky plants).

I am not disputing the facts you have presented, but I do have to question the last part about pure flowers being pure bullshit. I've never used the product, but I didn't quite follow your logic there.

You have said that you never need over 50 ppm of P,which I'd guess most base nutrients provide. I'm assuming most people are not using bloom boosters stand alone without base nutrients. So if the K boost is desired, and pure flowers provides that, while also being a strong systemic fungicide, would that not be a good product?

It sounds like you are saying PK boosters are not needed for most growers anyways, but that a K booster would be good, and that pure flowers is primarily a K booster.


You also mentioned that you don't want a P boost in preflowering. Is a P boost beneficial later in flowering? If so at what stage? Or were you trying to say that you don't want a P boost at all, ever, and that you only need a K boost in preflowering, and not after that?

What would the target ppm of P and K be during flowering? Does it change throughout?

[spurr]

Originally Posted by real ting

I am not disputing the facts you have presented, but I do have to question the last part about pure flowers being pure bullshit. I've never used the product, but I didn't quite follow your logic there.

You have said that you never need over 50 ppm of P,which I'd guess most base nutrients provide. I'm assuming most people are not using bloom boosters stand alone without base nutrients. So if the K boost is desired, and pure flowers provides that, while also being a strong systemic fungicide, would that not be a good product?

Great point and question!! That is why understanding what phosphites will, and will not do, is key. If someone wants to use it as a K source and as a fungicide, ex. to stop PM, then they are going to be very happy. Phosphites have shown to be effective against PM.

When I wrote "Pure Flowers is Pure Bullshit" I was referring to using it as a P source, and the lies, or ignorance, of Organa (makers of pure flowers).

It sounds like you are saying PK boosters are not needed for most growers anyways, but that a K booster would be good, and that pure flowers is primarily a K booster.

Yup.

You also mentioned that you don't want a P boost in preflowering. Is a P boost beneficial later in flowering? If so at what stage? Or were you trying to say that you don't want a P boost at all, ever, and that you only need a K boost in preflowering, and not after that?

You got it, I never boost P, there is not reason to if P is ~50 ppm. Only boosting K and Ca in pre-flowering is what I suggest. Cannabis growers greatly over-apply P...

What would the target ppm of P and K be during flowering? Does it change throughout?

For flowering, P = ~ 40-75 ppm and K = 125-150 ppm. But that is also the goal for veg and pre-flowing too.

Plants self-regulate uptake of N (nitrates), P, K, Ca, etc. Thus we should strive to give them sufficient levels, i.e. the same we use in veg, and let the plant take what it 'wants'. I never change ferts for veg and flowering; doing so is based upon flawed logic proposed by Mel Frank, Jorge Cervantes, et al., and it's just as wrong now as when they made their incorrect assumptions and hearsay, and called it fact.

Check out this thread of mine for lots more info about how plants self-regulate uptake of most ions:

"Plants self-regulate uptake of ions; they control it, not us, unless we overdo ferts"
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=190653

[opt1c]

but by using pure flowers one is only applying k as the p is not available, according to you, in pure flowers; probably enough p in the base nutes; especially if you're using flower specific ones to avoid a def while giving the plants all the k they need; maybe that's why it works... and it's antifungal too boot? nice

[spurr]

Yes, that is why it works, from the K, not the P. And yup, it's also a fungicide, so conventional growers (i.e. non-biological organic growers) have a dual product in Pure Flowers (or any potassium phosphite product)...just not a source of P. The efficacy of phosphites against PM is nothing to shake a stick at.

[opt1c]

i had a strain that overdosed on p once, soma rockbud, using h&g base with top booster; that being said are there any products that are out there that are more k boosters than p boosters other than pure flowers?