Fresh dirt to plant questions in! - New Growers - International Cannagraphic Magazine Forums

Presto_D · 02-17-2010, 06:29 PM

This is a great idea for a subforum, thanks!

I will be embarking on my first grow this year. Plus I need an opportunity to up my post count. :-)

It's true, most answers can be found by searching the rest of the forums. I will probably post questions to make sure I've understood what I read correctly, for the most part.

Here's my first question. Let's see if I understand, you can grow most(?) Seeds from 12/12 instead of vegging/flowering light schedules. Plants grown like this will remain smaller and move right into sexing and flowering in much the same way autoflowers do?

Not all strains will do well in 12/12, yield will suffer, and you really don't want to do autoflowers that way because they need lots of light in their predetermined short lifespan.

Does 12/12 similarly shorten the lifespan of a nonautoflower? Would harvest come as early as an auto? 2-3 months, and then the plant is toast? Or could one expect the lifespan of a plant on this light schedule to be its strain's flowering period plus 2-4 weeks until it is mature enough to show sex?

Should I go do a lot more reading?

My first crop will be autoflower, primarily for seed. I have some Auto Hindu Kush, Early Wonder Skunk, and Ruderalis Indica. I am in the process of getting legal in WA, and don't have all the supplies I would need to grow indoors, and it is too early to go outdoors quite yet.

02-17-2010, 06:57 PM

Sure you can go 12/12 from seed or from cut clone. Thats what i do straight to the flower room

will yeild suffer?? Well IMO that depends on how you look at things.

As far as autos go you will have to hear from someone else I know nothing about them.

Blimey · 02-17-2010, 08:20 PM

Outdoor time limitations aside, the advantage of an autoflower is that you can run lights 24/0, and it will still flower. More light = more growth/yield.

12/12 from seed is more of a tool for height-limiting sativas, which have more ongoing vertical growth during flowering than indicas. Also, many sativas come from parts of the world where the daily light/dark cycle doesn't wobble all that far from 12/12.

If you run indica strains 12/12 from seed, your final height and yield will be very small.

When I put small plants (not 12/12 from seed, but only a couple of inches in height) in flower, I often have to wait 3 weeks or more before they show sex....and then the regular flower period, or slightly less.

Mr. Greengenes · 02-17-2010, 08:43 PM

Genes can vary the response to light cycle a lot. Some 'sativa' dominant strains will still end up almost 4 feet tall when put on 12/12 right from germination. In fact, the shorter daylength seems to make them grow even faster during the stretch phase. Some 'indica' dominant strains will just stop growing as soon as they see 12/12. Those need quite a bit of vegging time in order to get any yield. In between those extremes lies an infinite degree of variability. Even within strains, there will be quite a bit of variation between individuals. Getting max yield from a select clone often takes a few runs. Much of that learning curve is adjusting to the veg time and when to flip.

OPT · 02-17-2010, 10:23 PM

I totally agree with Mr.Greengenes.

Getting to know your strain, and what it likes and how it grows is the most important thing on maxamizing a yield. That way you can really push it to it's limits to increase productivity.

As far as 12/12 from seed. I would never recommend it, unless you were in some type of microgrow, say...a PC case or something for height limitations.

From clone though, it's a highly used method to flower straight from clone. Clones are already sexually mature once they have rooted. Though, this usually adds the amount of plants you have in a given area to make up for the lighting your providing.

I remember seeing back in hightimes years ago a grower that would flower like 100 clones from root, all in like half gallon containers. He would get a 7 gram bud dried on each plant at the end of the cycle which would lead to 700 grams every 2 months given a 60 day strain. In my opinion that is very efficient. But poses a greater risk if the dooms day would happen and you were caught.

Is there anything wrong with flowering striaght from seed? No, if that's your only option, by all means, it will be better then nothing. But if efficiency is your goal, you'd prolly be better off letting them veg, and if anything, grow out a mother plant, then flower the clones right away.

OPT

Presto_D · 02-17-2010, 11:02 PM

Thank you all for the responses!

There is only so much I can learn before getting my hands dirty.

Some autoflowers really do better outdoors, I gather. I think Early Wonder Skunk was one of them.

My husband was cool with me growing outdoors, but now he wants me to get legal and hide a grow in the attic. So I may not have seeds for the right situation on hand anymore.
But hell, it's going to be my first grow. Having all the right stuff on hand doesn't change the fact that this will be a learning experience, for sure.

Having submitted my health records to a clinic, I am anticipating legality with fewer deer, rabbits, slugs and bugs. We have too many of all of these in the PNW.

slackx · 02-18-2010, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Presto_D

Thank you all for the responses!

There is only so much I can learn before getting my hands dirty.

Some autoflowers really do better outdoors, I gather. I think Early Wonder Skunk was one of them.

My husband was cool with me growing outdoors, but now he wants me to get legal and hide a grow in the attic. So I may not have seeds for the right situation on hand anymore.
But hell, it's going to be my first grow. Having all the right stuff on hand doesn't change the fact that this will be a learning experience, for sure.

Having submitted my health records to a clinic, I am anticipating legality with fewer deer, rabbits, slugs and bugs. We have too many of all of these in the PNW.

Get ready for smaller yields!

BigTop · 02-19-2010, 03:19 AM

I'd like to warn of a few concerns re flipping seedlings to 12/12 right away...

In order for the plant to express its true genetic potential, it must first develop (normally) until it reaches sexual maturity. This is usually 6-7 weeks of grow time under 24 or 18/6. Natural indicators the plant will put off are clear preflower development & a staggering of internodes. It is most advisable to wait until this point.

As I understand it, you risk...
- developing more males vs females
- the actual high of the plant will be less vs waiting
- dunno, maybe more adverse effects...?

The last point of a differing end product is well noted. Depending on how you run your first batch of cuttings, it is even suggested you may not "see" the true expression until your second or third run.

More out there if interested...

Peace brother & good growing!

Mr. Greengenes · 02-22-2010, 06:40 PM

Veg time is one of the biggest cultivational parameters that determines yield. I know because (look at my signature) my whole growing career is based on breeding, and breeding takes up all the space one has no matter how much is there. I've been flowering seedlings at the absolute earliest possible time for about 35 years now, and I can tell you that early flowering cuts heavily into final yield. The difference is very noticeable between a seedling started flowering in a 20oz solo cup and a clone allowed to veg up to a 1G pot before flowering. I repot from 20oz cups to quarts (not much of an increment), then to 1G with about a week in each can. The extra two weeks of veg time a clone gets will let it yield at least 4 times as much as the seedling. Plants grow very fast during veg. That veg time is the 'money' period of the grow, it's when the buds are being made. Short or no veg time will result in a much lower yield, with almost any genetics. Unless you're a breeder and need space, I see no reason for 12/12 from seed.

Presto_D · 02-22-2010, 09:30 PM

Very good information, thank you.

I'm trying to figure out what to do. I have a few really old bagseed, may be Trainwreck/NL or something my friend called Hassan Chop.
I don't know if those beans are any good, and they may not be the strains I remember smoking, because those were usually well cared for sinsemilla buds.

So I picked up some autoflower seeds. I desire stealth, more potential medication than THC, and quick finish is a plus.

My roommate isn't keen on me growing in the house until we finish up the attic space, right now it's full of old insulation and rats nests and bees. :P

I think I really have to start my plants indoors though. If I could keep them inside for 3-4 weeks that's nearly half the lifespan of an auto.

I think I will wait to see if the old bagseed will pop until I can grow in the attic, I don't know how big they will get if they will grow at all.

I don't want to wait until fall to grow anything at all! I have the seeds, and it's been 4 years since I had anything to smoke. ;(

I am thinking of making a stealth cab for those first few weeks. I guess I was asking about 12/12 because that will basically be the daylight hours after the last frost outside.

I have a PC that died, but I was thinking I could pull out the fan/s and power supply to ventilate the stealth cabinet. I just need to figure out odor control.

My roomie is sketchy about weed, but we literally never have anyone over. And not even he goes into my room because that's where the litterbox is.

Ok, I just rambled a bunch...

02-17-2010, 06:29 PM	#1
Presto_D Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: PNW Posts: 134	Fresh dirt to plant questions in! This is a great idea for a subforum, thanks! I will be embarking on my first grow this year. Plus I need an opportunity to up my post count. :-) It's true, most answers can be found by searching the rest of the forums. I will probably post questions to make sure I've understood what I read correctly, for the most part. Here's my first question. Let's see if I understand, you can grow most(?) Seeds from 12/12 instead of vegging/flowering light schedules. Plants grown like this will remain smaller and move right into sexing and flowering in much the same way autoflowers do? Not all strains will do well in 12/12, yield will suffer, and you really don't want to do autoflowers that way because they need lots of light in their predetermined short lifespan. Does 12/12 similarly shorten the lifespan of a nonautoflower? Would harvest come as early as an auto? 2-3 months, and then the plant is toast? Or could one expect the lifespan of a plant on this light schedule to be its strain's flowering period plus 2-4 weeks until it is mature enough to show sex? Should I go do a lot more reading? My first crop will be autoflower, primarily for seed. I have some Auto Hindu Kush, Early Wonder Skunk, and Ruderalis Indica. I am in the process of getting legal in WA, and don't have all the supplies I would need to grow indoors, and it is too early to go outdoors quite yet. __________________ EWS seeds, several generations in, better than the neighbors!
	Quote

02-17-2010, 08:20 PM	#3
Blimey Take A Deep Breath Join Date: May 2008 Location: Fat City Posts: 1,298	Outdoor time limitations aside, the advantage of an autoflower is that you can run lights 24/0, and it will still flower. More light = more growth/yield. 12/12 from seed is more of a tool for height-limiting sativas, which have more ongoing vertical growth during flowering than indicas. Also, many sativas come from parts of the world where the daily light/dark cycle doesn't wobble all that far from 12/12. If you run indica strains 12/12 from seed, your final height and yield will be very small. When I put small plants (not 12/12 from seed, but only a couple of inches in height) in flower, I often have to wait 3 weeks or more before they show sex....and then the regular flower period, or slightly less. __________________ ""...My deluded friend" he said, "...Everybody in this business knows that all the drug money from the narco- trafficantes finds its way to the City of London. Look at the HSBC bank, how they moved all those millions of dollars for the cartels in my country. Why your country did not prosecute them is clear to us, Great Britain does not care where the money comes from, as long as it comes to Great Britain, and no British Bank will be punished for bringing in the drug money. You people did it to China in the 19th century, and now you do it with the rest of the world. .." "What is clear to this overworked law enforcement agent from a country which is truly suffering from the corrupting effects of Cartel Heroin is that the UK has absolutely no agenda to promote or support any agenda for legalisation, because it would mean a strangling of the supply of illegally-generated drug profits, but then, the UK is not alone in having no intention of lifting the yoke of prohibition!"
	Quote

02-17-2010, 08:43 PM	#4
Mr. Greengenes Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,507	Genes can vary the response to light cycle a lot. Some 'sativa' dominant strains will still end up almost 4 feet tall when put on 12/12 right from germination. In fact, the shorter daylength seems to make them grow even faster during the stretch phase. Some 'indica' dominant strains will just stop growing as soon as they see 12/12. Those need quite a bit of vegging time in order to get any yield. In between those extremes lies an infinite degree of variability. Even within strains, there will be quite a bit of variation between individuals. Getting max yield from a select clone often takes a few runs. Much of that learning curve is adjusting to the veg time and when to flip. __________________ "The first principal is not to fool yourself, and you are the easiest one to fool". R.P.Feynman
	Quote

02-17-2010, 10:23 PM	#5
OPT On a long strange trip..... Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Midwest Posts: 896	I totally agree with Mr.Greengenes. Getting to know your strain, and what it likes and how it grows is the most important thing on maxamizing a yield. That way you can really push it to it's limits to increase productivity. As far as 12/12 from seed. I would never recommend it, unless you were in some type of microgrow, say...a PC case or something for height limitations. From clone though, it's a highly used method to flower straight from clone. Clones are already sexually mature once they have rooted. Though, this usually adds the amount of plants you have in a given area to make up for the lighting your providing. I remember seeing back in hightimes years ago a grower that would flower like 100 clones from root, all in like half gallon containers. He would get a 7 gram bud dried on each plant at the end of the cycle which would lead to 700 grams every 2 months given a 60 day strain. In my opinion that is very efficient. But poses a greater risk if the dooms day would happen and you were caught. Is there anything wrong with flowering striaght from seed? No, if that's your only option, by all means, it will be better then nothing. But if efficiency is your goal, you'd prolly be better off letting them veg, and if anything, grow out a mother plant, then flower the clones right away. OPT __________________ Bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. Don't play the victim role today, and don't blame others, fate, the universe or whatever for the difficulties you face from time to time. Every problem has a solution, and the solving of problems is the beginning of real success. Very good thread about growing reefer!~ Part 2: Training: Here... What is training? Excellent Compost Tea Thread So, You Want To Make A Brewer? How to identify plant nutrient deficiencies (Video) Simple drying/curing article by DJ Short . Breeding Basics by DJ Short Compliant to state laws, 100% medically grown
	Quote

02-17-2010, 11:02 PM	#6
Presto_D Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: PNW Posts: 134	Thank you all for the responses! There is only so much I can learn before getting my hands dirty. Some autoflowers really do better outdoors, I gather. I think Early Wonder Skunk was one of them. My husband was cool with me growing outdoors, but now he wants me to get legal and hide a grow in the attic. So I may not have seeds for the right situation on hand anymore. But hell, it's going to be my first grow. Having all the right stuff on hand doesn't change the fact that this will be a learning experience, for sure. Having submitted my health records to a clinic, I am anticipating legality with fewer deer, rabbits, slugs and bugs. We have too many of all of these in the PNW. __________________ EWS seeds, several generations in, better than the neighbors!
	Quote

02-17-2010, 06:57 PM	#2
150wPimpin Guest Posts: n/a	Sure you can go 12/12 from seed or from cut clone. Thats what i do straight to the flower room will yeild suffer?? Well IMO that depends on how you look at things. As far as autos go you will have to hear from someone else I know nothing about them.
	Quote

02-19-2010, 03:19 AM	#8
BigTop Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: MMj Approved Posts: 192	I'd like to warn of a few concerns re flipping seedlings to 12/12 right away... In order for the plant to express its true genetic potential, it must first develop (normally) until it reaches sexual maturity. This is usually 6-7 weeks of grow time under 24 or 18/6. Natural indicators the plant will put off are clear preflower development & a staggering of internodes. It is most advisable to wait until this point. As I understand it, you risk... - developing more males vs females - the actual high of the plant will be less vs waiting - dunno, maybe more adverse effects...? The last point of a differing end product is well noted. Depending on how you run your first batch of cuttings, it is even suggested you may not "see" the true expression until your second or third run. More out there if interested... Peace brother & good growing!
	Quote

02-22-2010, 06:40 PM	#9
Mr. Greengenes Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,507	Veg time is one of the biggest cultivational parameters that determines yield. I know because (look at my signature) my whole growing career is based on breeding, and breeding takes up all the space one has no matter how much is there. I've been flowering seedlings at the absolute earliest possible time for about 35 years now, and I can tell you that early flowering cuts heavily into final yield. The difference is very noticeable between a seedling started flowering in a 20oz solo cup and a clone allowed to veg up to a 1G pot before flowering. I repot from 20oz cups to quarts (not much of an increment), then to 1G with about a week in each can. The extra two weeks of veg time a clone gets will let it yield at least 4 times as much as the seedling. Plants grow very fast during veg. That veg time is the 'money' period of the grow, it's when the buds are being made. Short or no veg time will result in a much lower yield, with almost any genetics. Unless you're a breeder and need space, I see no reason for 12/12 from seed. __________________ "The first principal is not to fool yourself, and you are the easiest one to fool". R.P.Feynman
	Quote

02-22-2010, 09:30 PM	#10
Presto_D Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: PNW Posts: 134	Very good information, thank you. I'm trying to figure out what to do. I have a few really old bagseed, may be Trainwreck/NL or something my friend called Hassan Chop. I don't know if those beans are any good, and they may not be the strains I remember smoking, because those were usually well cared for sinsemilla buds. So I picked up some autoflower seeds. I desire stealth, more potential medication than THC, and quick finish is a plus. My roommate isn't keen on me growing in the house until we finish up the attic space, right now it's full of old insulation and rats nests and bees. :P I think I really have to start my plants indoors though. If I could keep them inside for 3-4 weeks that's nearly half the lifespan of an auto. I think I will wait to see if the old bagseed will pop until I can grow in the attic, I don't know how big they will get if they will grow at all. I don't want to wait until fall to grow anything at all! I have the seeds, and it's been 4 years since I had anything to smoke. ;( I am thinking of making a stealth cab for those first few weeks. I guess I was asking about 12/12 because that will basically be the daylight hours after the last frost outside. I have a PC that died, but I was thinking I could pull out the fan/s and power supply to ventilate the stealth cabinet. I just need to figure out odor control. My roomie is sketchy about weed, but we literally never have anyone over. And not even he goes into my room because that's where the litterbox is. Ok, I just rambled a bunch... __________________ EWS seeds, several generations in, better than the neighbors!
	Quote