I'm at my wits end

Alright, im tired, and these ladies are sick. The ongoing drama that is my C99 BX plants continues.

These plants were sprouted about 3 weeks ago. I planted them in Black Gold Seedling Mix which is supposedly a very light mix. I've been watering with nothing but Ph 6.5 adjusted water since they've been born.

I've fought fungus gnats off twice using AzaMax sprayed onto the plant leaves and directly into the soil, which seems to have eradicated them. I got the fungus gnats from some minor over watering, which I've done in the past. Overwatering wouldn't make these things look this bad.

About a week ago I flushed the soil because the runoff was registering at around 5.5 PH (how the fuck? I've been watering with 6.5 and have not nuted. Perhaps the AzaMax?) I flushed well and now the soil is sitting around 6.5.

Anyway, now I'm tired and these things don't seem to be getting better. I've checked for root aphids with a loop - nothing. Ive checked the Ph over and over. I have not fertilized once and this is supposedly low nutrient soil. I have not seen a fungus gnat in over a week.

Most notable issues on the leaves: Rusting spots, curling up and dying. Purpling around the cotyledons and tips of new leaves.

I'm thinking of doing the following:

1. Wait, continue letting them dry out from the last flush.
2. Transplant into a heavier soil which I can trust (FFOF)
3. Give them a little bit of veg nutes to correct a possible nutrient deficiency (?)
4. Cry

Strain of Mj? Mosca Negra C99 BX
Hydroponic or soil? Soil - Black Gold Seedling Mix
From seed or clone? - From Seed
Age of plant in question? - 3 weeks old from sprout
What stage (Veg/Flower; how many days into)? - Early veg
Medium (Soil, Rockwool, Hydroton etc.)? - Soil
Container/Pot size? - 1/2 gallon soil bag
Have they been transplanted, if so how long ago? - No
If soil, composition ratios (peat moss, perilite, vermiculite etc.)? - Black GOld Seedling Mix
Water runoff Ph? - 6.5 (was 5.5 about a week back, flushed to fix)
Nutrients added? - None
Ratios of nutrients (N% P% K%)?
Feeding schedule? - Water every few days - when they need it
When were they last fed/watered? - 5 days ago with flush
How are you determining when to feed/water (weight, wilting, etc.)? - by weight
TDS/EC/PPM?
Tap/RO/Distilled water? - Tap water Ph adjusted after a 24 hour chlorine evaporation
Ph before and after adding nutrients?
Is your Ph equipment properly calibrated? yes - liquid PH
Light intensity/Age of bulb/Wattage? - CFL's - about 120 watts
Distance to the canopy? - 5 inches
Temps at canopy? - 77-80 degrees F
Temps at root zone or reservoir? - 75-77 degrees F
Day/Night temps (Min.-Max.)? 75-82 degrees F
Current air flow (CFM)? PC fan pushing about 30 CFM out, fan blowing from below
Is there air blowing directly onto plant? No
Using CO2? no
Relative humidity? 25-35%
Growing technique (Scrog, Sog, Supercropping etc.)?
Has plant recently been pruned, clones taken, fimmed or pinched?
Pests? Recent Fungus Gnat problem - used AzaMax
Chemicals used to eradicate? AzaMax
If so,When? About 2 weeks ago

When things seem to be going awry fast, I generally re-pot my trouble makers into a new mix... Maybe this well help once they've gotten over transplant shock.
Do you use straight ffof? If so, I'd cut it with a good dose of perlite.

You used azamax on 1 week old sprouts? Did you start these in the 1/2 gallon containers? They look hungry IMHO ... I'm guessing Lock Out due to a soggy environment (the gnats support this theory) and pH issues ...

IWanaGetHiSoHi said:

You used azamax on 1 week old sprouts? Did you start these in the 1/2 gallon containers? They look hungry IMHO ... I'm guessing Lock Out due to a soggy environment (the gnats support this theory) and pH issues ...

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How do you think I could fix the lockout? Flush?

Yes, I used a very light mix on 1-week-old plants in those same containers. I started them in these containers as well. I was told by my hydro guy this was okay.

These plants doesnt look underfed or light in a feeding kind of way, rather they look sick. If i were to guess i would say a combination of the insect killer and overwatering(there are holes in the bottom of those containers? not only on the sides), rather low humidity aswell tho im sure this alone is not enough.

So if i had these problems i would first:
- not water them as frequent as you do, every few days is too much, water when the leaves stars droopin'.(does not apply when flowering) Believe me this will solve alot of problems, even insect problems, the plants we're growing are weeds and can handle alot before they cave in. One of my moms have been living in the same soil for 4 years now without a single issue, i just water with plain tap water and feed on every 3-4-5 watering, she loves life even tho she only gets water like 3 times a month or less.
- If the above doesnt help i would turn off some lights and use less wattage until they recover, however do not water them until soil is dry and the plants starts dropping, remember "starts" not when they are lying on the soil all dried up.
- If i were to guess on pictures themselves i would have guessed ph lockout tho, so make sure this is correct and that your drops(?) are not contaminated.(check first post in this thread : http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=159142 )

And to your last question to "iwanagethisohi" i would recommend not flushing, it seems there have been too much water on these plants already, let em dry up and then flush. Dry up in your conditions would probably mean more than a week. Its a fucked up thing having renegade plants, you end up trying too much and never have the patience to see the previous tries result before moving on. So try keeping it simple and follow my steps

funkervogt said:

I've fought fungus gnats off twice using AzaMax sprayed onto the plant leaves and directly into the soil, which seems to have eradicated them. I got the fungus gnats from some minor over watering, which I've done in the past. Overwatering wouldn't make these things look this bad.

Click to expand...

Ok,,, what you think is a Minor overwatering - the plants may not agree. Seedlings are really REALLY sensitive.

Over watering can be lethal - I think what you want to understand is it isn't the water in the soil - it is the amount of oxygen and to get the oxygen in the water has to go. - and then come again before the plant starts to droop.

I think if you search "Black Gold Soil" you will find it is prone to issues - pretty hot and ph is off. Starter mix for canna seeds can be a problem - I used to use FoxFarms Ocean Forest with about 50% pearlite

PEARLITE!! -- helps aireate soil - A LOT. Might want to mix a good portion into your soil - I wouldn't contimue with the current mix. Time to evaluate and take stock -
I'd go buy FF soil and pearlite - and Dolomite lime, take the Black gold out mostly and repot into smaller pots and let them recover for a week or more - lower light 20/4 schedual


Pot size can make for problems - I start mine in 8 oz styro cups - poke some holes in the bottom and transplant in about 3 or 4 weeks - and I only transplant to a 16 oz then for a couple mpre weeks then to a gallon - by this time they are well established and have clones with roots so veg to height and flower

funkervogt said:

I was told by my hydro guy this was okay.

Click to expand...

Be careful of advice given by a SALESMAN, and never forget that sales are the first part of the job title. ok? Next time ask what he has that is crap, - and he will tell you nothing - it's all good stuff that you may need.

Not saying all advice is bad, just that you may not be good to go just because the hydro guy says so.


Which brings up my last bit to contribute,, which is your local water - and the ph and a all related issues.

How are you testing?
Are you calibrating your tester?
What are the TDS?EC numbers of your water? - (The hydro guy should be able to test a sample you bring in) - See they are good to have around. sometimes.

I'll stop back.

cyberwax said:

So if i had these problems i would first:
- not water them as frequent as you do, every few days is too much, water when the leaves stars droopin'.(does not apply when flowering) Believe me this will solve alot of problems, even insect problems, the plants we're growing are weeds and can handle alot before they cave in. One of my moms have been living in the same soil for 4 years now without a single issue, i just water with plain tap water and feed on every 3-4-5 watering, she loves life even tho she only gets water like 3 times a month or less.
- If the above doesnt help i would turn off some lights and use less wattage until they recover, however do not water them until soil is dry and the plants starts dropping, remember "starts" not when they are lying on the soil all dried up.
- If i were to guess on pictures themselves i would have guessed ph lockout tho, so make sure this is correct and that your drops(?) are not contaminated.(check first post in this thread : http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=159142 )

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Cyberwax, thank you, so helpful. You've got my MO down pat - I see a problem, go crazy with changes, and end up making things worse. I'll let them dry out more (a lil' drooping) before watering again.

RockyMountainHi said:

How are you testing?
Are you calibrating your tester?
What are the TDS?EC numbers of your water? - (The hydro guy should be able to test a sample you bring in) - See they are good to have around. sometimes.

I'll stop back.

Click to expand...

First, thank you for all of this info. I had no idea about the Black Gold soil issues. I used to use FFOF cut with Perlite for everything, then switched to Black Gold under my hydro guy's advice.......

I'm testing using liquid Ph drops from the hydro shop. My tap water sits around 8.0, which is how I test (I first drop some in the tap water to make sure my Ph drops are 'working', then test the water Ph). I'll let the water sit out for 24 hours to evaporate any Chlorine. Then I'll adjust, test, let it sit for a few more hours, test again to make sure.

I have no idea about the TDS/EC levels in my water. I'll bring some in to my hydro shop. I didn't know this was as big of an issue with soil.

I think they were weakened due to a bad soil mix (already mentioned hot ferts at wrong Ph to boot) and overwatering. Then the spray just burnt them up. You can see where the spray laid in the crooks of the back of the leaf pockets and burnt them. Listen to the soil guys as to how to fix it, lRMH sounds like a candidate to start. Or PM one of the organic or soil mods to peek in on your thread for some advice. I can read plants, and know soil, but not like the soil experts - there are others more highly qualified for sure.

One thing..as soon as you see the plants responding and new green growth on the tips..cut off those burnt up leaves on the bottom. NOT until it is clear they are feeding on the roots as evident by nice nitrogen evident green growth.

c99bx is a great plant, I wouldnt want to lose it. Heck, I have been looking for a good cut/pheno myself. I would take extreme measures as recommended by the soil folks - even if you need to spend $25 on a new bag of happy frog or FFOF.

Onward.

Yeah, I'd also guess the soil you're using is either hot in fortified nutes and/or acidic in it's peat base... more likely the latter, though certainly possible for the combo.

Might want to look at DL (dolomite lime) to mix prior to planting/transplanting. Would do so for the next pots you step into.

HL (hydrated lime) will be a quick fix for you, but is very alkaline, so be cafeful & will have to watch the run-off to lock in.


BTW, the Azmx will actually raise your pH- in solution, if soil drenched. It will actually react w the soil chemistry for a few days after initial drench, just an fyi type of thing since you asked about it. At full strength in a foliar application, can actually cause necrosis on the leaves... the oil can be too concentrated & will literally suffocate the plant material. That's usually if you don't fully keep the spray agitated & concentrated drops accumulate.

Peace brother... hope you lock it in!

I'd save up for a good digi Ph tester.
When you get ferts changing the color of the water, - accurate reading is a bitch - and a guess.

You will find a range the plants like best - I think the tap water being used may have a large influence because of the chemical composition - so again - what works for one may or may not work for you - my garden runs best at 5.8-6.2 or so - and it varies a little which is good. (And I'm hydro based in rockwool ATM)

I've never tried Black Gold - just going from memory - and that can be a good thing, or not,,, well ya know! lol

Canna spefific products are worth the investment. Sometimes you can work around, but during the learning curve- you want as bump free a ride as you can get.

Also what are you using for pH down? Just checking,, dosen't sound like vinegar or lemon juice because yours is stabile - that's good!

As I remember I used about 50-50 Ocean Forest and Pearlite - maybe a little more soil than pearlite - and add a couple tablespoons of Dolomite lime to each gallon of mix.

You can do well with FF nutes - I was amending with bat crap, fish juice, sea weed juice and a couple other "touches" -

Also what are you using for pH down? Just checking,, dosen't sound like vinegar or lemon juice because yours is stabile - that's good!

Click to expand...

I'm using Technaflora Ph Down. It is NOT organic. I used to use this organic Ph Down that was wayyyyy too concentrated and would literally burn my skin while using it (even a tiny drop on my hands). This is the one non-organic thing I have in my garden.


I want to thank everyone here for the feedback! This is all great stuff, and I feel much better about this situation.

Here are my next steps:

1. Transplant into FFOF soil. Use a 50% FFOF, 50% perlite with a few tablespoons of dolomite lime in each gallon. Clean off old soil and replant into the same sized bags (the roots are already pretty well grown)
2. Water less frequently. Give plants time to recover from previous overwatering
3. Buy a digi PH tester to test more accurately

Missing anything/incorrect on any points here?

funkervogt said:

Here are my next steps:

1. Transplant into FFOF soil. Use a 50% FFOF, 50% perlite with a few tablespoons of dolomite lime in each gallon. Clean off old soil and replant into the same sized bags (the roots are already pretty well grown)
2. Water less frequently. Give plants time to recover from previous overwatering
3. Buy a digi PH tester to test more accurately

Missing anything/incorrect on any points here?

Click to expand...

Yes

Why repot it btw, no other medium is as forgiving as soil, if i were you i would just leave the plants and dont feed em for a while, nor water for that matter, and let the soil dry up.

Just get a pack of calibrating fluid and test ur drops if they are accurate.

Simple as that! You can repot when they have healed, less stressful for the plant. And dont waste ur money on a digital pen, you wont need it unless ur doing hydro, drops will do nicely. And remember your plants will look like this for a week or two before the begin to show signs of hope, just dont water them and watch the magic

Atleast thats what i would have done, but dont believe the hype.

Not to discredit those that have been successful without one...but buy the pH meter. Maybe I am not as good of a grower as these folks that "never" use one, but I would rate my pH pen as one of my top 3 most important items in the garden - like as important as lights...as in without it the grow doesnt happen. We all have bullshit stuff in our garden we dont need. The pH meter is essential in my garden. There are always those with small differences that go without pH and cant figure out why it is so important to other people...sweet water, good buffered soil, lots of humates, whatever..but I think for 49 out of 50 people, the pH meter should be on their belt like a ring of keys on a school custodian.

Paper strips dont work...pH is logarithmic...if you miss the color spectrum by just .2, as in it is 6.0 but you think it is 5.8...you didnt realize the orange color is actually "burnt sienna" instead of "orange marmalade" or whatever, lol...you are now 20x higher than you think. For every ten basis points (.10) in pH, you go up 10x. SO the difference between 6.0 and 7.0 is 100x, and 5.0 to 7.0 is 1000x. The pH at the soil level is immensely important as it dictates the amount of carbon atoms in the soils and the corresponding ability of the plants to assimilate nutrients from the soil web in the CEC process with the 17 required nutrients/elements the cannabis plant needs.

Well, I'd say the pH drops vs the pH meter... much more reliable, each time, every time.

White background behind the vial & get used to interpreting the coloring... I'd have to say that I am +/- .1 after using it for so long...? Better than most meter you can buy...

Here's the deal, you can fully calibrate two brand new pens (same manufacturer even, let alone between them) & get different readings on the actual solution measured. They damage easily, the battery charge makes a big deal, reference solution diminishes, permeable membrane clogs/damages easily & you constantly have to replace them, especially if using heavily... even if properly stored/cleaned.

Or you can buy a lab grade unit for over a g...

Peace.

BigTop said:

Well, I'd say the pH drops vs the pH meter... much more reliable, each time, every time.

White background behind the vial & get used to interpreting the coloring... I'd have to say that I am +/- .1 after using it for so long...? Better than most meter you can buy...

Here's the deal, you can fully calibrate two brand new pens (same manufacturer even, let alone between them) & get different readings on the actual solution measured. They damage easily, the battery charge makes a big deal, reference solution diminishes, permeable membrane clogs/damages easily & you constantly have to replace them, especially if using heavily... even if properly stored/cleaned.

Or you can buy a lab grade unit for over a g...

Peace.

Click to expand...

I hear you but just curious, not flaming, I am really trying to learn something. If pH meters are so unrealiable, and strips are so easy, user friendly and accurate...why dont more people use them? I dont think it is Hydro hype, as we arent talking about Organic Rhino Earwax Extract Bud Busting Backflush Brix BombDiggety nute solution...we are talking boring mechanical stuff. The kinda stuff people that have been growing for years figure out, and I have never heard of someone turning in their pen for strips. It just seems perhaps you had a real negative experience with a lemon of a meter and now kinda cynical.

I think it is awesome that you have dialed in your grow to the point that the strips work...you sound like a good grower. Peace and I hope to get some more discussion on this pH thing. Matter of fact...maybe a new thread on pH meters vs. strips so we dont wreck this one...

Onward.

BigTop and others:

I created a new thread on pH readings so we can continue outside of Funkervogt's help thread.

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?p=3194041#post3194041


Back to business in helping this guy and his plants now!

I have a solution to you problems. Please visit us in the Organic for Beginners thread in Organic soil. The solution to all of your problems awaits you there.

did thess problem start before or after the bugsprays? or after the flushes?

and how hard did you flush them...meaning how many times and how much water did you use?
coz a soggy inviroment does fuck up PH and such ....leading to nutrient lockouts...if the soil can't dry out fast enough you can have troubles ..looking like this...
but in your case it also could be from the bugspray's so this is a hard call to pinpoint.
and i also like to add that when you use a seedlingmix that is indeed very low in nutrients (or should be) and you flush it ,the very low amount of nutrients will be flushed away
so this is realy a combined thing IMHO
you can try to correct but it think your setup can't evaporate the water in the bags fast enough to get the ph fixed in a short time....
as for the PH meter thingy...each his own...i happen to have both....the drops are just as backup

Core said:

did thess problem start before or after the bugsprays? or after the flushes?

and how hard did you flush them...meaning how many times and how much water did you use?
coz a soggy inviroment does fuck up PH and such ....leading to nutrient lockouts...if the soil can't dry out fast enough you can have troubles ..looking like this...
but in your case it also could be from the bugspray's so this is a hard call to pinpoint.

Click to expand...

I flushed about 4 times their volume until they were pissing Ph 6.5. I had no idea moisture levels could affect Ph.

Yes, the really nasty damage came only a few days after the bug spray. However, the continued purpling, yellowing, and burnt ends on new growth has been what's worrying me. Some plants have no damage from the spray but look locked out, etc.

6.5 is a lil high for me in such early stages...flush lower ph to 5.8 to 6.0...