[rrog]

Hi. Just trying to conceptually wrap my mind around the basic concept. I see advantages to not filling my weed with man-made materials. I see standard Hydro nutes as unhealthy, and Organic nutes as healthy. I may be totally wrong in this assumption.

Maybe someone could see if I have this right:

Organic Hydro relies on the long term establishment of microbial colonies. So we're not changing out the res (full of our colonized friends).

We just add back in more nutes. I assume we measure TDS to get a ballpark timetable for nute adding?

I assume there are different veg and bloom formulations?

Do we still flush at the end as with standard salt Hydro?

Thanks

[DrunkenMessiah]

greetings rrog, welcome to perhaps the most obscure of growing methods, organic hydro!

There are many schools of thought when it comes to how one might go about running hydro with organic nutrients. You can come at the problem from many angles. However, before we dive into the various methods you need to know why we are here. First, a rant about organics!

Originally Posted by DrunkenMessiah

Its funny how organic gardeners seem to think that their plants benefit from the fact that their nitrogen (and other nutes) is coming from a natural (organic) source. THIS IS NOT TRUE. THE PLANT DOESN'T GIVE A DAMN ABOUT WHERE THE NITROGEN CAME FROM! NITROGEN IS NITROGEN, THE END. Its as if they think that the feel-good sentimental value that they get from using organics will somehow transfer to the plants. IT IS A PLANT. IT HAS NO FEELINGS. IT DOES NOT FUCKING CARE WHERE ITS NUTES COME FROM.

The plant couldnt give two shits that the nitrogen came from blood meal and not some urea-based chemical salt. This is not what make organics cool! Organics are awesome because it allows you to deliver potent nutrients to your plants without wrecking the micro-life present in the soil. Salt nutes kill microbes. Organic nutes do not kill microbes. This is the ONLY important difference between salt and organic nutes, period. In order to actually be getting any real advantage from organics you have to embrace the micro-organisms that will take residence in your soil. Check a bag of blood meal real quick, what does the label say? Mine says 12-0-0. Most organic nutes have similar concentrations, they are never very strong. Those numbers mean that the blood meal is 12 percent nitrogen by mass. The other 88 percent is organic matter which is COMPLETELY USELESS for growing cannabis. This is what is making your soil stinky. What do we do with the completely useless organic matter? Why feed it to the microbes of course! An active microbial population (along with appropriate accompaniment from Mychorrhizae fungus) will rapidly break down and consume this organic crap. In the process the microbes will up the nutrient content of the soil, fight off unwanted pathogens, balance the pH, chelate your minerals and generally be totally fucking awesome. If your organic soil is stinky more than a couple days after adding nutes you have an inadequate microbe population and all of the trouble you went to going organic has yielded you NO MEASURABLE BENEFIT WHATSOEVER.

-DM

So, organics, its all about the microbes. If we wish to benefit from the use of organics as cannabis cultivators we must become familiar with the needs of these tiny helpers. Meeting those needs can be a bit of a faff.

Some gardeners do what you describe. Some flavor of recirculating hydroponic system. Beneficial bacteria live in the oxygenated reservoir and the whole lot gets pumped about not unlike so many of the hydro techniques out there. This is all well and good, but not optimumly suited for taking care of the microbes. Bacteria can thrive in water-based hydro systems, but bacteria are only half of the microbe equation.

If you've been a good green thumb then you've already digested the sticky threads at the top of the forum. If you haven't then GO DO IT. I'll wait...

..Read them? Good! You should now know all about the benefits of Mycorrhizal Fungi. These dudes are rad and together with strong aerobic bacteria can make many of your hydroponic maintenance concerns a thing of the past. This microbial super-team will complete chores you used to have to do yourself. Balancing the pH, buffing the mineral content, protecting the plants from nutrient lock-out, drought resistance and fighting off unwanted pathogens are some of the major tasks a good set of microbes can complete for the gardener. This level of autonomy is only possible with the bacteria/fungus combo. Going with a water-based recirculating system (especially one that doesn't have a medium) will never get you this. The microbial superteam needs an organic medium to thrive.

Which brings us neatly to the venerable Hempy Bucket. This long-popular method is a simple gravity-feed medium-based hydro system. It features no pumps, resivoirs or other mechanical contrivances. It is ruthlessly simple and very reliable. Trouble is it is very tough to successfully adapt to organics. Even if you get them to work with organic nutes the results can be disappointing as DalaiHempy himself has demonstrated:

Originally Posted by Dalaihempy

Organic hydro



Hydo feed

Very unfortunate. I have determined the reason for this is that HempyBuckets where never designed to support organics. DalaiHempy, the technique's creator, often rails against anyone who suggests the use of organics in a HempyBucket. He rants at length about their inferiority to mineral nutes when used in his buckets. Quite right. But what he confuses, and seems to confuse others about, is that this just means HempyBuckets are inferior for using organics, not that organics are inferior to mineral/salt nutes.

What organic hydro really needs to shine is active oxygen injection. Providing oxygen to the root zone will supercharge your microbial population. Give them food to eat and air to breathe and your microbes are gonna go apeshit. This is what we need to get aggressive with organics, which is the whole point of organic hydro. Providing the best root zone for microbes can be done a few different ways. I would suggest the simplest way is with my OBBT technique. Its an organic grow method which was designed from day one to provide the best possible environment for microbe populations. It steals aspects from DWC, drip-style coco and the HempyBucket. I've got a few gardeners piloting their own versions of the setup right now. Hit the link in my sig to check it out.

Now, this certainly isn't the only way to go about it. Citizen024 has pitched up a rocking thread explaining his organic hydro technique that operates on a much larger scale than anything that would be practical to run with OBBTs. I'm sure some of the organic hydro masters will be in here shortly to extol the virtues of other methods. But for me the ultimate in low-maintenance high-performance organic gardening is the Organic Bubble Bath Tub.

Good luck and happy gardening!

-DM

[rrog]

Thank you for your thoughtful reply.

I have been a fan of beneficial microbes for a while. In my last grow I used Cub-Culture + molasses to feed them. Worked well, but with traditional salt nutes.

I'm looking to cut the chemicals from my bud. A healthier smoke is my goal.

I have serious space constraints as I posted in another thread here, so looking to assess if Organic will even work for me. I was hoping that I could continue with the hydro gear I already have, perhaps with modifications.

My current set-up does not have the bottom of the plant pots sitting in nutes. That's the biggest issue I see so far.

Originally Posted by DrunkenMessiah

Which brings us neatly to the venerable Hempy Bucket. This long-popular method is a simple gravity-feed medium-based hydro system. It features no pumps, resivoirs or other mechanical contrivances. It is ruthlessly simple and very reliable. Trouble is it is very tough to successfully adapt to organics. Even if you get them to work with organic nutes the results can be disappointing as DalaiHempy himself has demonstrated:

It has a built in rez what do you thinks lys below the drain hole thats right a build in rez.

Originally Posted by DrunkenMessiah

Very unfortunate. I have determined the reason for this is that HempyBuckets where never designed to support organics. DalaiHempy, the technique's creator, often rails against anyone who suggests the use of organics in a HempyBucket. He rants at length about their inferiority to mineral nutes when used in his buckets. Quite right. But what he confuses, and seems to confuse others about, is that this just means HempyBuckets are inferior for using organics, not that organics are inferior to mineral/salt nutes.

Rong agine no suprise organics need to brake down before the plant can take it up from the roots in short feed of the organics but chem ferts will be take up from the plant as soon as there feed there leys the diffrence wich you seam to be avoiding it has nothing to do with airation organic mattrer needs to brake down so the plant can feed of it so say it as it is not twist it around as you like the airation may speed up the brake down of the organics but no way will it be take up by the plant as fast as hydro nutrients thats fact and proven.



Your realy starting to piss me off mate iv stayed out of your posts i have not botherd to post to you or even x paths with you yet you post rubbish and slander like this.

You have not one picture of a cannabis plant of your own you have grown and you carrie on like some guru please you are how old ? how many full grows have you achived in your life few right.

I dont pretend to have all the answears but you seam to think you do.

I have grown arganicly for years also and i grew many trees out doors fact is most growers in this site want a reliuble no bull shit method to grow there medicine wich we call cannabis now you can do it organicly or you can do it useing hydroponics and or a combination of both its up to each grower but at lest put the facts before them so they can make there own minds on wich way to go forwed with.

What we should be doing is stateing real facts here not trying to say this or that methods the best and im not claiming my methods the best never have but im stateing facts wich is organicly grown plants will not grow as fast as hydro grown plants thats a well known fact.

This myth about organics being better for you well is it how do you know the organic matter your useing is clean like is the chicken shit from free range chickens that have not had a diet of steriods and the rest ? , Is the cow shit horse shit clean also is lots of veriants in this organic debate isnt there.

Fact is i dont see any one not telling any one not to grow it organicly or did i not say that you cant use the hempy bucket in organic hydro fact is you can but lets tell the grows the real facts here let them know that if you go organic hydro your yields will be less and the rest no bull shit is the best way to educate and try to better the nolige base as i see it.

Your a classic text book grower your at school still im thinking and have all the answears it seams .

Im asking you agine stay out of my path i will yours.

You run your air lines in the rez amigo but you aint going to make the plants grow like if they were being feed hydro nutrients them the real facts.

[rrog]

Originally Posted by rrog

I have serious space constraints as I posted in another thread here, so looking to assess if Organic will even work for me. I was hoping that I could continue with the hydro gear I already have, perhaps with modifications.

My current set-up does not have the bottom of the plant pots sitting in nutes. That's the biggest issue I see so far.

Sorry for having a confrontational thread. I just wanna grow some weed...

Originally Posted by rrog

Sorry for having a confrontational thread. I just wanna grow some weed...

you have nothing to say sorry for he had something to say about me i made it clear and answeard him as he need it to sed by me as far as me re posting to him not going to happen if he acts mature and stops with his rants and rubbishing.

Look rrog both organic hydro and normal hydro have something to offer its realy up to you as a grower rich direction you want to go.

What systeam are you infact useing.

You may need to modifi the systeam if your going arganic hydro also.

Lets see if we can infact help you and i my self dont cear what metho or systeam you go with my goal is and always has been to help others grows achive the best possible resolts so lets start with what systeam your running.

[rrog]

https://icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=129037 My initial p[ost for help. Thanks for the willingness.

The images and text there give you my basic scenario. Again my primary goal is to have weed with less chemicals. If Organic can help with this, then I'm in.

[Citizen024]

Scope out my Pura Vida coco drip thread. Can be done on any size scale. I am guessing your would be small, but its all good still.

Messiahs' organic buckets probably work just fine is used properly, however it requires being able to read your plants well and know thier nutrient needs by feel. This takes experience. If you don't have that down, you might run into trouble if your short on something.

Organic hydro is not as easy as just chucking organic nute's in a res in place of salts. You need to plan and study if this is your route- and previous growing and hydroponic experience is almost neccessary if your going to run organic. I do not recommend organic hydro to new growers.

Done CORRECTLY organics can compete with salts. It most definately can be done. But you better know your shit. There are numerous ways to achieve this, it is a matter of what your needs, objectives, and resources are.

I am staying out of conflicts gentlemen- it's all about sharing and live and let live in my book. You both make contributions: we are all lucky to gain from your knowledge. In the end, each of us must make their own choices, for our own needs.

As far as for you rrog: If your into hydro get yourself a nice easy 2x4 ebb and flow- rockwool, grow rocks, maybe coco/perlite (a great potential organic medium if you really can come to use it properly). Use salts and start playing with some nice stable organic additives at first. Pure Blend Pro/Cal Mag might be a good one for you to start with. Work your way up, get used to the plants. Get used to running systems. Get used to handling all this crap. It'll keep you plenty busy, trust me. If your REALLY into 100% organics (liquids, ammendments, whatever. . .) off the bat, then just go to soil and get used to organics there. Play it safe and easy. If you want a watering system just make a plane old drip watering one for your soil, it's really easy.

No one likes it when their grow turns into a failed science experiment.

I posted in that post but your basicly running flood n drain right so to start with you will need to chage your lines pup so on for organic feeding.

Now you need to work out are you willing to mix and make organic teas for your plants as the only real organic nutrient on the markets BioCanna but it has no N in the mix.



Heres a few emails from Canna.


Technically with any 100% organic/vegan nutrient you can only use these in soil as they need medium for complete breakdown and availability to the plants. Now our products with the refinement of vegetables and oils, we’ve been able to speed up the process but still truly feel you need a soil medium for best results. With this being said, we have many customers who are using the Bio line in many different media like Coco, soil, rockwool, coco/soil/perlite mix and ready-gro mixes with phenomenal results. Again we strongly believe you need the medium to make the organic nutrient complete but many are getting the desired results using non-soil media. So it can be run in a hydroponics set-up that contains some kind of media like the ones mentioned above. Our other concern is the thickness of our Bio line, this will clog any hydroponics system pumps, tubing, drains, etc. so if you are to use it this way it has to be cleaned and monitored daily or best to be hand-watered each feeding without drains to ensure no clogging.



So we don’t condone this use of our Bio line in traditional hydroponics set-ups due to the clogging and in our minds the full effects of organics will not be fully utilized unless there is a soil medium but many use it with wonderful results. I personally have seen it running in these set-ups with phenomenal results but I do like the results in our Bio Terra Plus soil best, pretty amazing. So if there is anyway for you to use the soil, I suggest that route.

[Citizen024]

Originally Posted by Dalaihempy

Now you need to work out are you willing to mix and make organic teas for your plants as the only real organic nutrient on the markets BioCanna but it has no N in the mix.

Not quite true. Much respect, no conflict- just facts. Wanted to point out Bio-Bizz is 100% vegan organic. OMRI. And both lines are EXPENSIVE as f**k. Bio Bizz BioHeaven= $250/gal. And both clog lines. He's in drip. I am pretty sure Roots Organic, and I know for sure Pura Vida are both OMRI as well. Rumor is everyone is about to lose their OMRI's due to organic law changes. Pura Vida is already having to change labels I hear- they are back ordered already.