[Citizen024]

Thought I would share what I have experimented and gotten to run quite well. Sorry no pics at this time, but they will show up sooner or later here. Killing it is all I can say.

I am more towards the organic end, and Pura Vida is unique. At long last I have found the Holy Grail of organic nutrients: available, drip line friendly, potent, and ph stable'ish. I am seeing Pura Vida perform *organically* as well if not better then Pure Blend Pro, H & G, Canna- which are high end lines which rock, are user friendly (and not so flexible and costly) that require various additives to work properly. Basically they are synth at heart with organic and synth boosters around a synth chem backbone. They all work very well, and I LOVE Pure Blend Pro personally. I do use Magical and know it is not organic. It is however, the only non organic thing in my garden. The day there is a easy consistant organic cal mag I am there!!! Yes i could do it with Calplex, epsom- but at my garden size it isn't practical. Still working on the exact nutrient dial in, I'll share what has been solidly blowing it up.

SYSTEM-----------------------

I use run to waste Botanicare block coco-30/40% large chunk perlite handwater/drip system. 30% run off. Got a MDT-1 precision timer to the seconds to run my pumps. 4x4's under 1000's with 24 Perfect Pots per tray. 2 drippers per pot. Trellis's have been built, but not being used due to mite fight.

STRAINS-------------------------------
Deep Chunk x NC Afgoo-sometimes mislabled as DC X Strawberry Cough. Incredible!!! Very medicinal; great breeding. Really helps with my condition. Calming, very potent, yet very functional and no brain fog what so ever.

The Grapefruit - thats just a nickname- I don't think it's the real one but a random pheno from seed- it's insane!!! Uplifting with superior flavor.

Fairly dialed in and efficient environment- humidity is a bit of a trick as I am near the coast, so I have to always be on the look out for PM. This round been trading off with a few pesky spider mites, too, but they are about to meet Mr. Floramite for the second time, then a couple rounds of bombs. B*tchhes. They don't have a foothold, and I cannot let them get established. The end.

About to turn on CO2. Been having humidity issue requiring venting. Hopefully go it dialed today!!!

NUTRIENTS---------------------------

Outside of coco or soil run to waste system I wouldn't use this formulation. Recircing organics leads to trouble one way or another. Pura Vida and Pure Blend Pro (not 100% organic) are some of the only drip friendly things out there:

VEGETATIVE:

My veg is CHEM, yes, it is. .it's just so much easier to do coco/30-40% chunky perlite in ebb and flow trays: 5 inch containers for more root mass, vegging to 15-17"s. RO water.

3 Part GH (250-300ppm Mirco, 120-150ppm Bloom, 100-150ppm Grow). I have been playing with adding a little extra Magi-Cal (30-50ppm). I am still working out the right amounts, so if anyone has any input, I'd love to hear it. Good old GH. I might go to House and Garden Coco's for simplicity.

Then add: 50ml/gal Vermi-T (organisms), 2-5ml/gal EJ Catalyst, and occassional 6-8ml/gal Cannazyme; once a week foliar of 15ml/gal Rhizotonic (w/Zone/Penetrator to fight PM if needed). Might sulphur as well, but have not to date. I will add about 30-50 ppm of Magi-Cal or Cal Mag about 3-4 days into the res, and I keep it fairly topped off with RO.

I really feel it is not worth setting up a complicated organic system simply for vegging. Keepin it simple and user friendly. I feel I could substitute H & G, Canna or Pure Pro Grow (even drop most the additives) and it would all be about the same in the end I think. GH just offers me a lot more control/flex then any of those A/B two part formulas. Gotta watch the K, keep low on Grow.

TRANSPLANT---------------------------

Transplant with 8ml/gal Thrive Alive and GH three part for 3 days (300ppm Mirco, 300ppm Bloom, 100ppm Grow). Vermi-T 50ml/gal (about to start brewing my own organisms at home for cheaper), Cannazyme 6ml/gal.
RO Water.

Foliar Canna Rhizotoninc at transplant and 3-5 days later. I add Zone/Penetrator if I am fighting any PM.

FLOWERING--------------------

Then for the rest of Flowering I go almost completely organic. I use a number of additives, and am sure I could not use quite so many, but why fix it if it ain't broken? Most of them are fairly cheap too:

WATER: 50% RO- 50% ~220ppm tap. I mix till it's at 120-180ppm. Helps keep my ph stable, as PV is very acidic. There is good minerals in it too, just don't want too much. Near the end I sometimes go 100% because they drink so much, and by that point it's not as critical to control the feed. Gotta be water conscious and conserve the RO waste.

*Magi-Cal (100-150 ppm, shoot for 120ppm. Start cutting it out around week 5-6, out completely by week 7.)

*Pura Vida Grow/Bloom (600-900ppm for MY system. Caution with this stuff, you can overdo it. It might get up to 1100 at the height of heavy bloom, depends) at different ratios. 50-50% at first, with more towards Bloom after week 3-4, 75-100% Bloom for the week 5-6. Pura Vida is a very unique nutrient and being experienced with chemicals and organics helps when using PV as it has qualities of both. It is as available as a chemical nutrient (though I still believe in having a good mircoherd for a variety of reasons). Organic growers may not be used to that availability and can cook thier plants thinking they have buffering. Like an organic it doesn't do well recirculated; so if your trying to just substitute it into a typical hydro system it will run amuck on you. Ph can also shift and be hard to stabilize if you add air/stirring. Notice my usage rates are also much lower then Technaflora bottles say; it can totally burn you!!!

*Sugar Daddy(7ml/gal- 110ppm- can raise higher if desired).
Sweet/Sugar Daddy adds mag so I am cool once I start to cut out Magical/Cal-Mag around week 6. I have used Sweet, and just switched to Sugar Daddy to see how it does, and I didn't want the berry flavored added to it that Sweet does. Also has sulphur for flavor.

*EJ Catalyst (2-5ml through out the cycle). I am old school and I just like this stuff, it's super cheap and I have a fetish for using it in everything. It helps me balance ph often (acidic that will rise over time)- especially is I use 100% tap.

*Budswel Tea (10-15ml/gal) for weeks 5-7. Prrety sure it's got a good doseof sulphur in it, you can smell it. Sulphur= flavor. I am sure there is other good stuff too.

*Foliar Nitrozyme (0-4-4 sea kelp extract flower booster) a couple times through the cycle. Sometime during week's 2-6 in general.

*Vermi-T week 2, and 4. Organisms keep us safe and assure availability.

I am considering using Pure Flowers Organic 0-30-20 super bloomer week 6 or 7, but have been hesitant. Need to also compare it to Kool Bloom powder. Need to do a small test batch before I decide what to use on a regular basis. I know it can knock the yields up for sure.

FLUSHES: with Flora Kleen or whatever that new GH flushing stuff is (much more concentrated and cheaper then Clearex- check it out, $20 a gal and only need 5ml/gal instead of an oz.- works just as good IMO) once at week 3, 6, and 8 via the drip system to clean it out. I can hand water RO too in addition if I am really needing to flush.

Just water for week late week 7 and 8, may add molasses or maple syrup. Citric acid can be fun too. My research has revealed that citric acid, sugar, and sulphur are three of the key flavor additives that can actually be taken up directly by the plant.


PH CONTROL AND WATERING/FLUSHING---------------------------

I use EJ Catalyst to down my ph much of the time rather then ph down, though I have used down and think it fine. Catalyst is even cheaper then down believe it or not. It's just a nice way to handle it completely organically and let me add more Catalyst in. It is so weak nutrionally I have no worries about over dosing it- it is perfectly fine to use lots of it. Pura Vida likes to rise so we have a nice ph meeting here with an acidic additive. They both help eachother out, as otherwise I would have to use a whole lot of up to use both of them.

I mix 55 gallon barrels. I have a pump in the bottom that comes on before waterings to mix it up, but otherwise I let it sit. Try to go through it all in about 3 days. The mix's ph will climb if bubbled, and will climb at a slower rate if stirred all the time. I tend to start the ph low, around 5.2-5.6. I let it rise to about 6.2-6.8. The Technaflora rep told me you can let it go from 5-7 since it is organic and has a more a flexible range. Then make my only correction (usually, but not always) after a day or 2 and bring it down again with Catalyst. Because I let it rise, now with I water with the more acidic 5.2-5.6 and it will balance into about the 5.8 range in the medium. From there on out I just let it rise up to 6.8, and usually finish the res off before it gets all the way up. Now when I mix the new res, it comes in at 5.2-5.6 again and meets the higher ph, etc., etc.

Through out the cycle I will use a water wand to hand water at least once a week. Stops salt build up. The drip provides the precision no human can achieve, the hand watering is more thorough then any drip system can hope to be. Sometimes I use nutrient, sometimes just clean water, it all depends on the ladies.



FINAL THOUGHTS---------------------------

I have been moving away from any chem nutrients in general in flowering- but not using them ever at some part of the grow is really really difficult in hydro. Organic, or organic boosted chems have always done better for me then just chems. Been there done that and did great years ago- I almost immediately then added stable organic additives to help it along (hence my love for EJ Catalyst and Pure Blend Orginal). Then went to PB Pro when it first came out. Rocket sauce for sure. Now I am just raging it with Pura Vida as my backbone and still using many of my favorite additiives. No need for a bloom booster though; Pura Vida really does deliver enough nutrient. H&G, Canna, PB and many more definately need one though. I could just as easily switch to one of them as the backbone instead of the PV, but the build of the entire system is specifically set up to able to run organic.

It's fairly easy with little room for error the way I am using it- not always the case when it comes to organic systems. Stable, high output, and organic are words that don't often go in the same sentence. I want that organic quality of soil with hydro growth/yield. It is possible, but it has taken me years of tinkering to perfect the techniques and requires attention to detail. I have studied a ton and experimented a lot, even worked at a shop part time for a couple years a good long time ago and really got hands on with just about everything out there. It took a lot of working with all kinds of organics, soil, chems, various hydro mediums (God bless coco!!!) and methods; I could do almost anything but this is the system i choose. The only other method that interests me is Bio-Buckets- that is some dope shit, hands down and almost no one is doing it. The way I do things is not for everyone, I get that.

I am happy: works really really well, environmentally friendly, superior quality and growth rates. Blows soil away in yeild/speed, and identical in quality. Very clean in the end.

It's a lot of reading, I type fast. Thanks for making it through it all. I WELCOME feedback, input, dialogue and comments!!!!! Let's help each other prosper.

[DrunkenMessiah]

Very interesting and astonishingly complete write-up you've got there. Members of this forum are not great fans of WALL-O-TEXT posts, I know as I tend to write a lot of them myself.

You seem to have whittled your process down to a science. I envy the completeness of your regime. I must say though I do not envy what your mantinence routine must be. All those drip lines and pumps and manifolds and such, all very complicated and time-consuming to clean between grows.

I find it interesting that many hi-po hydro enthusiasts such as yourself are beginning to stray from their favored all-mineral-nute regimes. Hybrid organic/mineral regimes seem to becoming more and more popular, especially with the great nute lines such as Pure Vida coming out. I'm very happy to see organics starting to hit the mainstream and liquid nutes such as these will more rapidly convert the mineral-nute-faithful and hydro enthusiasts alike.

That said, I find all organic-based liquid designer nutes to be pathetic, limp-wristed facsimiles of what REAL organics are all about.

Liquid designer nutes like Pure Vida are great. Very potent, high-concentration sources of organics. Because of this the ingredients in them should go bad in a matter of days at room temperature in the presence of moisture (which is always there because its a liquid nute). They don't though. Why? Because they are chock-full of preservatives and buffing agents, thats why! Due to this designer organic nutes can't hold a candle to traditional pure powdered organics when it comes to harboring beneficial micro-life. Designer liquid nutes are absolutely pathetic at this task.

Despite this they still harbor some microbes, whether the grower is aware or not. I find it interesting the way you describe your switch from all-salt-nutes to a hybrid organic regime. You found that your plants flowered much better in the presence of organics. Yield did not go up much but you describe a sort of dramatic-yet-hard-to-put-your-finger-on increase in cannabis quality. Vigor, flavor, smell, colors, all generally subjective aspects that are hard to assign scientific values to. And yet the change has been significant enough for you to now favor this hybrid organic regime.

I would bet serious money on the fact that all of these improvements you have seen come down to beneficial microbes. Where before you didn't have any at all because of your salt nutes you are now seeing a small population carve out a biological niche in your hydro medium. You find that adding molasses seems to improve things as well. This is because molasses is nearly a pure carbohydrate and adding it will make the population of your bacterial colonies soar. Molasses can't do jack shit for plants directly. It is just sugar and plants are flat incapable of utilizing sugars that they didn't make themselves. Any improvements you saw from adding it, even improvements in flavor, happened because of the effect the molasses had on the present bacteria, not because it was somehow absorbed into the plant. If you don't believe me find yourself a soil chemistry book, or just ask a horticultural scientist.

I am very happy to see another fledgling organic gardener. Err, I guess I shouldn't say fledgling, you sound like a very established cannabis cultivator who has his shit nailed down. That said, it sounds like you have a lot more to learn about organics and a lot of reading about beneficial microbes could do you some good. As you get more and more into organics you may find that drip-style coco hydro techniques are not the best in the world for harboring advanced micro-life (especially fungus). I'm personally working on a new coco-based growing technique that was engineered specifically for leveraging strong beneficial microbes. Hit the link in my sig if that interests you at all. I think it might. You expressed a lot of interest in Bio-Buckets and I think my OBBT technique takes what they are trying to do up to a whole new level while actually being simpler to build and maintain. Think all-organic HempyBucket with the benefit of oxygen injection; something that neither Bio-Buckets nor your technique have. There are already a couple of talented gardeners piloting the techniqe themselves. Silver_Surfer is having great results with his Reclining Buddas.

Very happy to see such a high-caliber gardener here in the organic hydro forums. I think the community will benefit much from having you around. Can't wait to see some pics of your rig, sounds very professional. Good luck and happy gardening!

-DM

[Citizen024]

Thank you thank you for the great reply!! I knew the organic hydro forum would be a smart and challenging crowd to open discussion with. Really hearing a lot of what your saying and can appreciate your expertise for sure. Glad to know there are some seriously strong new techniques being developed and I will keep an eye on your progress. In this response it really made me clarify why I do what I do, knowing what I know.

Definate agreement on all fronts. Would definately move towards more raw organic teas, but at the scale I am at it is hard to count on the consistancy, and cannot afford to experiment and error. Bottled products are unfortunately my only route. There are some other logistical factors beyond that as well in this situation.

I need to read up more how what stabilizes bottles and how that works and what it means.

My maintence is actually pretty easy, no more so then any other hydro system really. Yes, I deal with medium, but do it very efficiently. I run raw drip lines, no dripper, with large pumps so it flows well. Filters on the pumps, and stirring pumps with extra filters to catch whatever maybe floats around helping keep the amount of gunk really low. I also have clever plastic mesh filters in my trays to keep my run out coco free and my drain clear. Plus PV is rare in that it is relatively gunk free to begun with, and all the rest I use are really thin too. Could add clearing agents like HG Drip Clear as well, but see no need. Well aware of clogging in lines I assure you. When I finish a 55 gal barrel, I run a bunch of water into the barrel, get a big old brush, scrub the sides for about 3 minutes, then run it all through the system as a flush. Running the GH Flora Kleen every now and them literally strips clean the inside of the barrel- I can only imagine it does the same to the lines. And even if they clog, the way I build them it's super easy to replace sections of the manifold without building a whole new one. I use 1/2" tube, so it's cheap and simple. I literally just make a square with elbows, and 1 T. I use quick connects to link it to the res, so I an just disconnect, replace individual lines, sections (or a whole one) and plug and play. I am all about efficiency.

The more "bio" systems I absolutely see as the true organic hydroponic systems. Highly microbed mediumless systems are of GREAT interest to me as direction to move in. The pre-bottled highly digested organics are in effect a short cut in that direction. I even rigged up a small bio bucket to test the theory out. Do to logistics again it's not practical in scale at the moment; also can't afford to do large unproven experiments. Building large versions seems daunting as well.

I am however going to start making my own biologically charged teas. I have been using Vermi-T from the shop, but it's expensive. A bucket, a venturi pump, some organisms starter, some coco/earthworm castings in a filter bag, and some molasses and I am set to brew my own microbes for so much less. Bubbles, stir, and wait. I really know what you mean about the power of microbes; really feeling that. I do actively work to create a great home for them already.

Do you recommend any particular starter cultures for making teas? I am looking at Great White, or Oregonisms from Roots Organics.

I'll share a small small (keep it simple and short . .haha) on my history. I originally did soil ammendmented (powders) in large containers, 10-15 large plant backyard style with some raw organic liquid and powder add ins. Fantastic results. Moved indoors, modified my techniques and got great results. All this was at a large closet size scale.
Got into hydro- ran only 2 rounds of straight salts to get a hang of them, immediately started adding powder amendments, guano teas, Pure Blend, EJ Catalyst, Metanaturals, liquid kelp, suagrs and other organics in with the salts since I knew these things and they filled out the salt formulas so well. Molasses is hardly new in my tool kit. This was about 1999-2001, and many things (products) that exist now didn't then. If you were able to you would see my posts in Overgrow when i was tinkering with it all. The good old days. Hydroponics was still "better living through chemistry" for the most part. Organic hybrids were a home made deal, their wasn't much other then Fox Farm that mixed them. I produced results that were basically hard to distinguish from organic soil with considerably larger yeilds. Salts to feed, organics to benefit. Organics bottled productss were in general more raw formulations that really would get bio active and tended to be hard to manage. No Pure Blend Pro even. I worked at a shop, and had a whole room of all various systems to master all manor of nutrients in without risking my own garden in experiments. And some of them went real bad (and smelly!!), let me tell you. But it was all awesome!! It was the perfect lab. Immediately realized that organics could not simply replace salt based fertilizers- they had to be handled their own way, and had unique challenges. So began the quest. And yes, microbes are a big big part of that quest.

What I will say is this: yes the more "raw" organic systems are awesome, and challenging to do at larger scales. They pose just as much complexity as any other hydro system. They like to gunk up, shift ph (though the bio systems seem to be able to handle this well), etc etc. Your always trying to stay balanced with the right stuff, breakdown times, bacteria/fungus, tea making, etc etc. Mistakes cost in yeild, and they can be quite disheartening. And there is always the question of the delay between when you put something in, and when your microbes make it available.

I assume your methods close many of these gaps too I would imagine; it seems to be inferred.

Seems some newer styles are really bridging that gap and I am very interested. I see some of the newer bio methods being much more hands off, and I really like that. Efficient efficient efficient.

I know you can make your own super organismed microbrewed nutrient teas, etc.- but it's time consuming, and hard to keep it the exact same every time. Once again: mistakes are costly. It's practicality/time scale comes to a limit when you start getting larger.

And in the end it comes down to this: if your plants nutrient needs are being met and all else is good it will grow at max rate. Doesn't matter how you make that happen in the end, they only grow so fast/so much. Period. Oxygen, microbes, nutrients- once you have met the amount needed your maxed out in those departments. If I can create fert burn with a nutrient (and PV surely can burn), that tells me it's packing punch; it does still need the proper ratios etc. Molasses is far from the only ingredient on the label; though I agree with you about what it's true purposes really are.

Highly oxygenated systems (like aero, nft, dwc, all sorts of bubbly organics, etc) are super fast and great root growth- but are they really pulling out more in the end? I have read of bio buckets really hitting heavy and am intriqued (that and the simplicity of achieving it). Outside of that in my experience is it isn't so compared to a really dialed in mircobe friendly hydro medium. Putting say an aero salt system or DWC next to say a dialed rockwool salt system both full of or stripped completely of mircobes- hard to say which is "superior". Just different with unique ups and downs to each.

So now to bring it to organics: If you have a medium that can hold microbes and O2 in good amounts and quality nutrients being properly controlled/delivered; then what does it matter to the plant how that happens in the end? I have seen certain strains pull 2.2-2.4 lbs off a 1000 watt w/the setups described in my thread. Hard to rival that no matter how a system is set up. Besides at those levels it starts to get far beyond just nutrient.

I guess I really hear you, and really agree with pretty much everything your saying- it's just not the only way to touch that level organically and we need to have multiple options available based upon our individual needs. And scale, practicality, and degree of error are all key factors to be taken into consideration.

Really appreciate your post, it seems we are in totally in resonance about how things work. I hear your wisdom. I think if this were a different situation, I might be more apt to act in building a more bio powered system. In the end, I think it would make me really happy to do it that way.

[10k]

Is that you, hows everything been on planet ### lately ?

[Citizen024]

Having read your technique I truly appreciate it's workings. I get it. Like I said though- it has a lot to do with size and practicality for me. Going larger or integrating that with a watering system would be a start- there by creating pumps, lines, drains, , air pumps and stones, etc. all over again. Your methods work very well, and I applaud them and your hard work.

How do you keep your nutrient consistent?

If we were to build it into a system for watering, guess what? It would look basically a hell of a lot like a bio-bucket system (which is basically a organic deep water culture). Seriously. No reason to run to waste when you can recirc the whole thing and keep it stable and healthy. Only real difference would be that instead of mechanical air stones and pumps, he uses a water fall. It's error proof and simple, all it takes is a pump. He uses lava rocks, you use a heavily perlited mix, not all different. Big Toke's Bio Bucket 101 and other postings are really really good if you have not read them, I'm sure you would dig it.

Screens and supercropping are things I am really familiar and into as well. You've clearly got the techniques down.

Many years ago I played with design similar concepts and understand them, but you have developed them superbly. The ebb and flow addition is nice. The old Hydrogardens worked with a capilary mat and air with a drain level, it reminds me of that is some ways.

Many things "do the job". And at the small to 1-2kw scale you can make almost anything work if your willing to put the time in. If say, a person or co-op has 4kw+ worth of lights, well . . now we are in a different ball game. If they don't want to be a ball and chain to their garden and be able to go out of town for a couple days, it's a different story too.

Gardening has many factors to it. There is no one right way to do it, and it is completely unique to each situation. Your presenting a great option, thank you for sharing it all and working out the kinks for others. Rock on my friend!!

[DrunkenMessiah]

Thanks for the level of thought put into your response C024. I can see we have similar habits when it comes to the completeness of our posts.

Very glad to see you interested in teas. Glad to see your interest in everything actually. So on to your questions.

Keeping my nutes consistent is sadly done mostly by feel. I'm all about the sciences and you will see many of my posts containing rants about gardeners who do not base their techniques and discussions in science. I like hard data, numbers, values, predictability. All of that said the OBBTs have a frustratingly large amount of 'feel' involved when running them. This is because all of the micro-management (nutrient levels, Ph, buffing, lock-out) is handled by the microbial population. Without high-powered microscopes and other cool equiptment there is flat no way to tell what is going on down in my medium. Measuring the pH or TDS of my runoff can tell me a bit about the state of the bath but the data is relatively meaningless when it comes to actually knowing anything about the health of the grow.

Measuring the TDS of an OBBT is a faff, it tells you nothing. Because I use so many powdered organics and other pure stuff there is a huge quantity of water in-soluable nutrients hanging out in the medium. This stuff will never show up on a TDS measurement. In fact, the nutrient content of the bath is not what is significant. The OBBT is all about the medium, the bath is just there to keep things moist. Water insoluable organic matirial is constantly consumed by the microbes and that results in water soluable nutrients becoming avaliable to the plants. Therefore avaliable nute levels fluctuate constantly, there is no real way to track, measure or guage the progress. The gardener has to trust the microbes, something a lot of hydro enthusuasts are reluctant to do.

Perfect consistency and 100% repeatability are not as much of a priority in OBBTs as it is with so many other hydro rigs. The strong microbes present a COLOSSAL amount of flexibility. They will take up huge fluctuations in nute and mosture levels without shocking the plants a bit. All organic nutrient-providing matirial is captured by the fungal network and the nutrition is fed out to the plants as needed. This makes perfectly consistent nutrient teas somewhat unnessecary. Just add roughly similar amounts at the same time every grow cycle and the microbes figure out the rest.

This is why I so vehemently differentiate between my method and the Bio Bucket. Bio Buckets deliver oxygen via a waterfall. This gives them 100% oxygen saturation in the water, something the OBBTs have as well. But as I mentioned the water isn't the point of the OBBTs, the fact that it is well-oxygenated is not why I use the bubbler. The design forces all escaping oxygen out of the top of the bath and up through the medium. Air constantly hisses and feeds up through the entire root zone, even where there is no standing water. This is the key difference between OBBTs and Bio Buckets. Bio Buckets couldn't possibly handle the quantity or concentration of water in-soluable organics used in the OBBTs. In fact, no water-circulation based hydro system can. This can be gotten around by using designer liquid organics but I've already had my say on them.

Using a lot of water insoluable nutes give your medium a massive nutrient background. This drastically reduces matinence as there is a solid nutrient presence at all times. As long as there are strong microbes to break the stuff down there will be nutes for the plants to consume.

Which brings us to teas. I've always started up a lot of my own cultures. Lacto Bactilli is one of the best beneficial cultures around and also one of the easiest to fire up:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=96325

On top of this I use Espoma's Bio Tone Starte plus and Hydro Organics Mycorrhizae Super Pack. Stick the whole lot in a sock with an air-stone in it and bubble away in a 5 gallong bucket. Once again, perfect consistency could be tricky here. The most a gardener can do is be careful to add the same amount of ferts and other constituents to a consistent amount of water. Trial and error will be needed to figure out the perfect mix. This would most likely be annoying for a large-scale hydro gardener such as yourself. As I explained my technique makes exact precision rather unnessesary.

*waves hand* but anyway, all of that is a bit besides the point. Just trying to clarify the exact method behind my madness. OBBTs in their current form could never work at the scale you run. They where designed to be nice and induvidualized, perfect for the low-maintinence personal gardener who wants to run a maximum of a half-dozen plants. The hand-watering and induvidual plumbing quickly becomes inconvininent when you want to push past 10 plants or so.

This is actually what got me posting in your thread. I wanted to pick your brain on large-scale hydroponic rigs. I think it would be possible to simplify and daisy-chain the OBBT technique to work at a far larger scale. A bit like dutch pots maby. I've had a few ideas knocking around in my head for some time. I'll have to finally draw up some decent diagrams. Someone who has experimented with hydro and other organic growing technique such as you would be the perfect candadate for bouncing ideas off of. I'll be back in here soon. Good luck and happy gardening!

-DM

[rrog]

Originally Posted by Citizen024

If we were to build it into a system for watering, guess what? It would look basically a hell of a lot like a bio-bucket system (which is basically a organic deep water culture). Seriously. No reason to run to waste when you can recirc the whole thing and keep it stable and healthy.

Citizen, I'm confused. In your Pura Vida posts, you mention that Organic can't be re-circulated. Maybe I'm mixing up systems here...

[Citizen024]

Awww, sorry, its just a clarity issue. Organic do not do well in tradional recirc hydro systems, however Bio-Buckets are specifically designed to be one continuously moving system, it never sits for a moment. Sorry bout that, my posts make the statement based upon an assumption one understands how these systems work.

[rrog]

OK Thanks for that. So in your opinion (which I have grown to value a lot) would a continuous recirculating drip system work OK with your current OHydro nute mix?

Thanks for your very patient replies. I am learning a great deal

[opt1c]

Nice; i happen to be growing out the same strain myself the first time.. i read your post and had a few questions. How long do you usually water for and how much time between cycles? Although the plants needs always change is there a general ratio you use for watering? When you veg do you water via drip manifold as well or do you have a bottom feeding ebb & flow setup? If so do you mind elaborating on it?

Try using h3ad's coco formula for coco when vegging; 6ml of micro and 9ml of bloom per gallon... modified lucas formula; my moms in pure coco love it; i've also used h&g coco, canna coco but i'm not sold on anything in particular yet

Otherwise nice setup; organics and chems have always danced an odd dance on the forums; when is an element not an element and a mineral not a mineral? Are unsustainably mined guanos better than unsustainably mined salts? Etc... it's nice to see someone who doesn't mind taking the best of both worlds and putting them together.

I've been thinking myself about doing an organic lc1 coco mix gro or just going straight coco; i've always grown in pure coco with chems but the coco/perlite mix would be a lot cheaper in the long run; i keep moms in coco forever though and have no issues so i'm interested to see if a mix performs better than pure coco or how pure coco would perform with organics. All in good time i guess. Have you ran other coco mixes in the past?

As far as incorporating teas go i've always figured you could slap an inline filter on the 1/2 manifold line and then create a large bucket with a 1/2 valve on the bottom that you could place above the height of the drippers; fill the bucket with tea, disconnect the manifold from your main reservoir, connect to bucket, open valve and gravity feed a freshly brewed tea to your plants without a pump to keep all the microbes alive; i'm sure you could use a specialized pump that they use on some of the commercial sprayers for teas if gravity wasn't enough to hit all the sites on the manifold but i guess one would cross that bridge when they get there; just an idea i had for teas; yet to implement it myself but i'm limited with space during the summer time.

Great post; any hint on the garden size? lights? sqft? drip sites? # of reservoirs? etc? don't have to be too specific just trying to picture everything in my head