[Bass Akwards]

Originally Posted by maryjohn

Sorry, but you are wrong. "Reducing the need" is not the same thing as "being" an herbicide (pulling weeds reduces the need for herbicide too), and in that respect your claim is bogus.

I made no "claim", but merely pointed out the deliberate use of misleading terms, phrases, and modifiers, to support highly questionable propositions.

Originally Posted by maryjohn

Nothing in the original post claims ACT is an herbicide, insecticide, or that it kills anything at all.

CT's original post claimed ACT "reduces or eliminates the need", which certainly implies, and was clearly Meant to imply, that ACT can be substituted for, and performs the same tasks, as herbicides and pesticides. I never used the "killing" analogy. That was mentioned by Microbeman. If it's a problem for you, take it up with him.

Originally Posted by maryjohn

The way your own post points out the way you've been extremely creative with semantics in support of some perceived common sense ethos is kinda silly.

Painful to read. Please edit or rephrase it.

If my "creative semantics" are a problem, them aim your arrows at the original perpetrator, CT, who prompted my commentary in the first place.
If he got a dose of his own medicine in that respect, that's tough.

Originally Posted by maryjohn

Let me remind you that putting words in someone's mouth for the sake of convenience is pretty low class. I hope you didn't mean it.

On the contrary, I meant every word. Nothing was put in anyones mouth, and certainly not for the sake of "convenience"; ( a poor choice of words ).

Originally Posted by maryjohn

Nobody called compost tea fool proof or a panacea.

That long list of purported benefits on page 1 certainly qualifies ACT as a "panacea". Read it again. My "colon cleansing infomercial" analogy fits like a glove.

Originally Posted by maryjohn

But it is a technology worth promoting because it is so effective and in the long run, cheap. Everything has downsides, but you've greatly oversimplified things.

Hard to argue with cheap and effective, unless, of course, it's not.

A 5 gallon bucket, an aquarium pump, and an air-stone, is a relatively inexpensive investment that can produce fine ACT. Buying a compost tumbling machine, an industrial-duty pump, ( or compost brewing gizmo ), plus a microscope, doesn't qualify as "cheap". Effective? Probably. But if there's such a significant improvement that it can justify the additional cost ( on a non-industrial, hobby-grow scale ), we've yet to see anyone make that case, or even make an attempt.

[Bass Akwards]

"Neither plants, nor humans, can "call upon" microbes."

Originally Posted by Microbeman

Dead wrong on this one. Read the paper on my page and follow up with the citations.

Might do that. But, until shown otherwise, I'll continue to believe that the only way to "call upon" microbes & fungi is with a Ouija Board.

Originally Posted by Microbeman

You are now taking on the tone of one of those we run into who could be called a desperate arguer, so in a sweat to prove some lame point they think they made that they lose track of what is real.

If the points were so "lame", why did you agree with some of them?

As for being in a "sweat to prove something" .... that's really amusing. This little interlude has been a piece of cake.

Originally Posted by Microbeman

Mix into that the need to impress linguistically and you have what adds up to me wasting my time on an Internet queen.

There's no "need" to impress linguistically, it's just the way I think and write. I'm literate, educated, articulate, and as you've noticed, opinionated. If you feel it's a waste of your time, why did you even bother? As a public service? Please, spare us.

Until the next round of half-baked hooey hits the fan, ciao!

[maryjohn]

Originally Posted by Bass Akwards

I made no "claim", but merely pointed out the deliberate use of misleading terms, phrases, and modifiers, to support highly questionable propositions.



CT's original post claimed ACT "reduces or eliminates the need", which certainly implies, and was clearly Meant to imply, that ACT can be substituted for, and performs the same tasks, as herbicides and pesticides. .

you redefine the terms to suit you, then make a claim. Yes, your statement is misleading, in the sense it accuses the OP of making a claim that was not made. "Reducing or eliminating the need for" is not mistaken as a claim of equivalence by any reasonable person. Are you a reasonable person? Here's a reasonable analogy - not falling from a tree reduces or eliminates the need for a cast on you arm. If your reasoning holds true, and i made that claim, you would accuse me of saying good balance can substitute for a team of surgeons to put your arm back together and the cast to immobilize it.

CT is largely used as a preventive, and by promoting plant health alone eliminates or reduces the need for pesticides, which are an intervention after the fact. Don't conflate the two. No one else has.

And please, let's all drop the personal attacks and the little literary criticisms. It's a message board not a poetry slam. I would concur that much of this appears to be arguing for its own sake.

[Microbeman]

I'm literate, educated, articulate, and as you've noticed, opinionated.

Not quite literate enough to understand what you read; not quite educated enough to research before you speak; articulate in a thesaurus sort of way; opinionated....oh ya but you left out narcissistic and double-digit IQ.

Public service is actually correct. If you check my record, that pretty much sums it up. A little sad...I know.

Moderators; what was that about blocking posts which are not based on knowledge or experience?

[Clackamas Coot]

Originally Posted by Microbeman

Not quite literate enough to understand what you read; not quite educated enough to research before you speak; articulate in a thesaurus sort of way; opinionated....oh ya but you left out narcissistic and double-digit IQ.

To use a quote from New York Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan (circa 1970), Back Akwards 'scientific knowledge' suffers from what Moynihan described as 'benign neglect' and I'm probably being extremely charitable with that description.

You're welcome.

CC

I just want to state that I'm not claiming that compost tea is a pestcide, or any other type of ~cide. I do believe it will reduce or eliminate the need for these products. However, you can't take a chemical paradigm into organic gardening. It's important to get the soil and plant healthy, rather than just treating symptoms. Compost tea is an excellent tool for the organic gardener.

I don't appreciate how you've chosen to interpret my motivations in sharing information. I think it's important to share educated knowledge on this relatively new technology. Bass Awkwards, if you have any information of importance or experience that you'd like to share, I'd love to see it. If you're here just to criticize and attack my posts, then I think it's a waste of time.

Many people in this forum have had great successes with compost teas. If you choose not to use them in your growing, that's just fine as well. I mentioned before it's just a tool for the organic gardener, however I'm not retracting anything I've already written and stand behind what I've stated in previous posts. Please go back and do some research into the literature that Microbeman has posted, or I can point you in the direction of good information as well. I'd be happy to send you the Harvard study if you send me a PM with your email address.

You don't make it very easy to have a polite conversation due to the antagonistic nature of your writing. Please refrain from questioning my motives and instead just post questions or comments relating to the material we are discussing.

Thank you.

[VerdantGreen]

i just read the whole thread and found it interesting (apart from the unseemly row in the last couple of pages) CT Guy, whether you are selling a product or not, the advice and help you give out is useful to many so thanks for that.

i have no doubt that compost teas work, what i would be most interested in is comparisons against other organic methods such as just using a rich soil mix and adding mostly water, or top dressing or whatever.
i get great results with just a good soil mix and probably havent the time for compost teas, but i would consider them if i thought they might improve on other organic practices.

[CannaSmile]

My experience with teas has been amazing so far and I am greatly appreciative of the poster. Thanks a lot CT. Great soil education here

[Clackamas Coot]

Originally Posted by VerdantGreen

i have no doubt that compost teas work, what i would be most interested in is comparisons against other organic methods such as just using a rich soil mix and adding mostly water, or top dressing or whatever.

i get great results with just a good soil mix and probably havent the time for compost teas, but i would consider them if i thought they might improve on other organic practices.

Good question!

The author of "Teaming With Microbes" moderates a 'Compost Tea' group over at Yahoo.com and included in the group of participants are many farmers, researchers, university-level educators from around the world and 'regular folks' like me who generally read the material presented knowing that much of it is way over the layperson's head.

Read a few of Microbeman's threads and answers and without a good solid basis in micro-biology the average farmer/grower can get pretty lost in the specifics on how these teas are brewed, for what specific purpose, etc. The whole nematode discussions have me lost by the 2nd paragraph.

But what's interesting on that and other venues where AACT uses are discussed, the overriding purpose of using teas is to 1) improve the fertility of the soil and 2) using these teas as a viable defense against powdery mildew (a very general term for about 3,500 different strains).

When I mix up new soil or I'm re-charging the used soil for containers, I add the highest-quality compost and/or earthworm castings that I'm able to source. Adding an aerated compost tea probably has less effect on that soil's fertility than the benefit against the bane of every farmer, grower, horticulturist, nurserymen, orchardists, vinters, et al in the Pacific Northwest - mildew.

So back to your question, I don't think that it's an 'either or' deal. Could a person take a mediocre 'soil' that they pick-up at their local 'indoor garden center' and improve it with aerated compost teas? Probably and the level of that success would depend on the base ingredients used by the manufacturer - "You can put a vest on a goat but it's still a goat"

By applying the tea you would improve that specific 'soil' product but the fertility would never hit the levels of using your homegrown earthworm castings, correctly made compost, etc. along with kelp (or seaweed extract if your prefer), fish hydrosylate, some form of rock dust, etc.

Soil fertility notwithstanding, at the very least the application will move a process forward to produce the healthiest plant possible given your other factors, i.e. lighting, temps, air flow, etc. which is the best defense against fungus invaders and limit the damage by mites, etc.

BTW - in 1968 W.A. Stephenson (who founded MaxiCrop) wrote a book, "Seaweed in Agriculture and Horticulture" about using seaweed in agriculture. Many of the studies referenced in his book of over 40 years ago went back another 40-50 years on the use of kelp 'teas' as a defense against spider mites. It seems that there's an agent which helps prevent mite eggs from hatching. Not the 'magical cure' that the average pot grower is looking for, but it is another tool.

Here's an extract from the book I mentoned.........

[VerdantGreen]

yes, that makes sense, i take a lot of trouble over my soil mix in the first place because it's something you only have to do once in each grow. there is a gardening proverb that i always liked which says

spend a penny on the plant and a pound on the hole

it always amazes me that people will spend hundreds on a pack of seeds and stick them in any old soil they can get from round the corner.

as for powdery mildew, my observations of it's occurance in gardens are usually as a result of irregular watering which may be the result of letting plants dry out too much between waterings/rain or plants being left in pots for too long and getting pot bound and too big for them. plant them out and very often in later life they will develop PM. Excess nutrients leading to lush sappy growth also attracts it.

cheers

V.