[FOE20]

Gratz folks...its all for the love of it...glad ppl are enjoying it..

indeed Octavian....its not complete tho so its open for additional info...if you have any input its more than welcome...
I feel we as Consumers Own the Market...The Breeders are secondary just like wholesalers..Diff between DJ and other breeders is DJ's work sells itself when done correctly...Others have to keep their strains in the spot light to get attention and the "Hype" crowd..just look up at the fancy banners....lol..
If you have any details just msg them or post here..Its all good with me...
I have some of Chim,eras work and def plan to put him thru the same tests I do with DJs work..Got Mental Floss on deck...


DJ's book Cultivating Exceptional Canna covers quite a bit on the Breeding topic...heh..if your good with complex breeding Idea and math...
When I was a Sous Chef and made up the evening specials the Chef would take credit..
Even tho DJ worked for these companies he still gave up his work which in some fields is a given..But I'd be pissed if a Chef I knew took a recipie, wrot a book and became famous of of a Recipis that I had designed yrs prior...
Thats strait Theft and Im sure why DJ is quite disgruntled at the Seed Co's he worked for...Like I said he shoulda opened his own store long ago..
I respect DJ for dealing with it and moving on and forward but we all go thru it in some form or another.Its hard to be kicked n knocked down allot and get up each time with a clear n level head and have to almost start from scratch each time..But its no different for any driven person with solid goals..

I made the image to help support the Outline...The main post wa just the visal outline of it all..Then I was bored and made the image yesterday...Im still adding info but was just showing the start of it which was kewl to see after I got thru the basics..
Im writing a book on the "Canna" subject but won't be publishing for a few yrs so I'll def take any information that has valid True relevance....

I really do hope DJ comes thru and says a word or least gives approval as I'll need copy rights from allot of breeders foir their input and he's def one of the Tops ever in the History of it all....
FOE20

[VirginHarvester]

What a great thread. I did not know BB has been around since early 90s, same with flo. I had also thought Blue Satellite was in the past couple years as a result of SOL losing some ST#3 moms and only having the fathers available for crossing.

Chimera said they used some of DJ's original BB on their Highland Mexican x BB thanks to having access to DJ's room and I was wondering what that might be like compared to some of the newer BB strains, or if there is a BB version DJ has that's most like the original BB.

[mayan]

Props for excellent forensics, y'all. Fascinating reading.

[Ulysses]

Nice work FOE...

I've poured over DJ's work to decipher his master works...

I've popped BB from every breeder possible and always get something different/interesting. Yes, I disagree with other breeders profiting from DJ's work.

I continue to take the stance that only sativa leaning pheno's of DJ's Flo and BB are most desirable. DJ gushes on and on about landrace sativa's, the experience, the flavor, the 'non-blandness' of the flavor and buzz...

It only makes sense he would want to showcase the sativa in his crosses- yet, BB is 80 ind/20 sat??? The last BB I witnessed that was 80/20 was thick fleshed, huge fan leaf pheno of MDanzigs BB Femmes, unfortunately herming for me around week 4 to 6- a beautiful very Kush leaner- perhaps a 10 weeker!

He bashes the indica for infecting/ruining/lessening the pure sativas! Very little information exists on the original indica male- either DJ holds this strain as a secret or truly cannot recall many details about it... Dare I say it, the indica used was a non- elite- not exceptional, not super resinous, earthy tasting- best hashed!!!

Is there any Juicy Fruit Thai in Flo? Is the indica in Flo and BB the same plant/strain??? I fully agree that DJ's strains need at least two weeks extra in veg and may perhaps go 10 weeks for the most 'useful' phenos...

[Elevator Man]

I'd certainly agree, now I've found one, that the ten-week-plus Flo phenos are probably the ones to look for. This f3 plant, which I presume is Oaxacan-dominant, given its structure, taste, smell and high was extremely exciting, and is in flower again now, and has been crossed yesterday with my f3 male. I definitely need some seeds from this one...

[XyZ]

cool thread guyz ...but similar thingz were already discussed here if i remember well... so i don't feel a need to write the same stuff again

my experience is different about this longer flowering phenos tho... the most frosty purple nugs i had from the F-13 were actually done in good 7 weeks, the 9 week plant had LESS resin and aroma density. funny eh?

the original blueberry was relatively stable, flowering around 8-9 weeks (1 week harvest window) and all uniform ...some a bit more purple than others though... but generally the same. i'm also very happy with the next generation, called just "berry" - almost identical to the old blueberry, which is an indication for a good inbred-line.

in crosses the F-13 is much more dominant than the blueberry or berry, but unfortunately it's producing 50% mutants... at least in my PAndora (F-13 X bubblegum) Not only me, fj & some others had similar mutant ratios as well if using the F-13 female. the good side is that the crazy plants are optically ugly and usually veg slow, but individuals are later developing into unbelievable hashplants.

the blueberry has less of this freaky genes or at least they are not so much expressed in the visual grow-traits (maybe just a few little leaf-deformities or stem-anomalies on rare plant) ...but the resin production is still in the high-level... also in hybrids.

overall i love to explore the potential of the blue family & i'm very thankful that the maestro created such interesting lines.

[Rebel_444]

Hey FOE20, loved the timeline - I was just thinking of something like that.
I want to ask, what is the approximate date /era of the moonshine you work with?

*as a side note* - could you direct me to a grow thread of your UV-2 if there is one?

[FOE20]

sure Rebel44....what I have is a mixed selection from a few yrs...the orig DJ BMoonshine used was aprox bought in late 90's by my friend Kaya..He grew them out and held a choice mother for yrs tryin to find a solid pool for Fathers for breeding..He found the best MNales in a selection pool of Cone's BMxBM(DPassion inbred) which Cone made avail in 2004/05 as freebies on another site..Kaya bred a few Mixed Male phenos and the project was called 3xBM...
Orig BM x BM/BM = Kata orig rel 3xBM....
I ran these and Isolated for Sativa traits and Bx'd 2 more times to a Sat dom Mother I had in my first run which is the plant I show most as 3xBM...Ive only rel a very few of what I have which is a Sat dom 5xBM ver of Kayas 3xBM...
When selecting the Keys are..Slow-Speed of Growth....Non-Afghani smells as in Sweet not Flat or Dank-Hashy..Smaller more petite Foliage or Fan/Plams..5-7point fans with Thinner Sativa dom Blades...Not as This as a Thai but not as thick and long as a pure type Aghani....This will help in selections for great Sat Blues..

The sweet sativa room
I recommend the creation of a special "sativa room" for indoor breeding of such strains. This room needs to consider and satisfy the unique needs of the sativa variety. The goal is to replicate the equatorial conditions of the world’s various "sweet spots". Some of these conditions include: a different light cycle than the standard 18/6 vegetative 12/12 bud cycles, a higher angle of light (using a straight track shuttle instead of a circular one), humidity control set on low for the highland and high for the lowland, and variations in soil composition and depth.
DJS

thank ya Ulysses..which I have to agree with cause even back in the late 80's when I saw what I know as old Afghanis they were like that..Very Chalky, Dry looking Indica monsters with Lower Trich production but to me its Not "lower"..Their Smaller more Compact Trichs as opposed to Long Stalked Sativa dom trich production..To me the reason why their mixed now is the infusion of both Highland and Lowland Afghanis in the pools..Whats interesting to me is when DJ used the term "Kush" when describing Indica BBerry traits...This comment I find very Inconsistent and why I try and speak to him directly.....

EMan your the man when it comes to allot of DJ topics indeed..But that Plants and allot of the information discussed is inconsistent as allot of reports on DJ's breeds as there not easy to grow for the most part...
For example..DJ mentions a Sativa Room which Ive used for many many years and have discussed here in other threads..I also run a Indica room which unless folks understand why we use these than how can they begin to understand the reasoning behind using one?...Ive tried to explain the reason and will continue to do so cause its the same way I do it to get the plants to grow correctly..Which is our main goal as Growers and MED providers...I'll never grow a Strain for Yield cause whats the point if it wont help my MED friends...Even that plant you show to me could be a great pheno but to me its not grown to its full limit..Now don't get offended cause you gata know that the orig Mexi's were huge Plants..Not small cropped trained Indoor Bushes...They were as said.."Massive Golden Spears"....Now the old Mexi's Ive seen are just that..Tower over ppl and each cola is the size of a baseball bat..Now thats a Oax and how is this possible at 9wks when in its own region it takes over 12?....I also feel Maturity of a Plant is Not decided on its Flip "Size"....Its bases on Actual Age...I grow out Sats in veg for 10+wks alone before even thinking of Flowering..Is this normal practice for all...Not in any SOG ever run my brutha....So Im sure you get my point and even if not I'll always strive to prove the points that I seem to have gotten most involved in proving to myself..

hey XyZ I wasn't posting this to add another BlueBerry thread tho as yes we have all discussed it in many thread on many sites..This isn't a grow or strain report, or the normal what are we after and where are the Best Blues kind of topic..What it does answer is the questions of whether Sag, DP and SOL hold original genetic lines as they promoted in the past..and also how and when they were acquired..
It has been well talked on and thats why I made the Image...its purely a visual aid..
On the topic of BBerry Sativa Longer flower times and other inconsistencies to me its far from over..DJ nor amny on this site or any other have confirmed what Ive mentioned or documented about the relevence of the flower times in the Sativa end of the Nlue line..Its not a well covered subject cause the work Stopped years ago...We as a community are rebuilding this line but its still DJ's original work no matter what Lines are Used IMO...


Ive expressed this many times as the reasoning being the impossibility of some of the phenos being at anywhere under 9wks..To me this is a Waist of Time and effort Unless its a Indica Dom pheno to begin with...
DJ calls them Stretch Indicas where Im not sure I can agree with this...I want DJ to come forth and actually have this conversation with Us (me) cause even tho I respect every one and all the input given by almost every breeder in the book it does Not prove the facts of How they grow Naturally cause the Flower times have been misconstrued from the beginning...IME-or not Opinion....
To me if it makes you think about it , it was worth the effort..But my main goal is the same as in wanting DJ to come out and give his peace on it all which even tho allot of us have msg'd hm our questions in hopes of gettin a reply in any form it would be even more beneficial to the Canna scene to have him discuss it openly in a public forum...
FOE20

[purcellville]

Originally Posted by XyZ

cool thread guyz ...but similar thingz were already discussed here if i remember well... so i don't feel a need to write the same stuff again

my experience is different about this longer flowering phenos tho... the most frosty purple nugs i had from the F-13 were actually done in good 7 weeks, the 9 week plant had LESS resin and aroma density. funny eh?

In crosses the F-13 is much more dominant than the blueberry or berry, but unfortunately it's producing 50% mutants... at least in my PAndora (F-13 X bubblegum) Not only me, fj & some others had similar mutant ratios as well if using the F-13 female. the good side is that the crazy plants are optically ugly and usually veg slow, but individuals are later developing into unbelievable hashplants.

Funny... I note the very same thing, my killer F-13 is always ready at 50+ days and by 63 it is over done. My 70+ day f-13 are less desirable far 7 out of 10 times.

Boy have I been stoned. I somehow had you and Fj mixed up and was thinking Pandora was DC.. and ... well... I put down the joint and cleared my head... I still thank you a ton for showing the out cross.

I am just now doing a few F-13 outcrosses and the beans are just about ripe. The male was mutated and I am expecting a 1:4 or higher rate of mutation. I am not thrilled with my mutts overall, but keep looking for that prize. Again your work and Fj's work in this area have been so helpful.

[Ulysses]

FOE, you are a wise man to suggest a plant has to be "mature' enough to flip to flower...

I am working on a similar theory- The Long Veg thread by me- whereby the plant is grown out until Sexual Maturity is reached THEN flipped... I am going on the premise that when the plants in the blue family begin to form alternating nodes, they are sexually mature and ready to flip... This is under the special sativa room conditions to boot... I believe HOG and Thai phenos will accept the long veg, and Afghani phenos will not respond well. Testing continues Few of us are this patient...

I don't have many scientific facts to support my premise yet, but I'd like to hear any opinions...

Truly, F-13 is fascinating- I have yet to get my hands on some... Now keep in mind when I talk about a desirable sativa leaning pheno, I am first and foremost concerned with the high or the experience from the plant. The smell, taste, color and yeild are secondary... Happily, the best highs are usually accompanied by a very decent plant!

Is F-13 the 'ultimate' expression of Flo? Is F-13 a sport?

Dear F-13, who is your daddy and was he a mutant?

EMan, you Sat leaning Flo kills me, and I hope to find a similar pheno in my work- your's resembles my Highland Mex x BB very closely, and is basically a bonsai version of your (pure) HOG. Perhaps I should be working with OPT instead??? Maybe someone can hit their OPT mother with some Flo pollen to achieve some 'hybrid' vigor? Are the generations far enough apart..? Hmmm...

Happy GroundHOG Day! I'm twisting a fat Green Flo spliff (Up, motivating, attitude shifts positive, possible to work out and do yoga, a tonic to the body) and going to ponder this thread awhile...