Taking T8 to the extreme

First Entry 1/29/2009:

Hello everyone! I wanted to wait until I was sure I had stable plants going before I started this up. I now have seedlings and maybe clones(they're still trying to decide if they want to live.

My soil mix is 25% Pro-Mix Ultimate Organic, 25% Pro-Mix for containers, and 50% Perlite. I can't say I'm 100% happy so far with the mix. The Ultimate Organic Mix is probably best used more like a compost and not a soil. As for the container mix, it containers water-retention polymers, which are great if mixed into the soil properly, but the plant you will see with watering damage is a result of a large clump of this polymer forming a jelly center to my planter. I am in the process of seeking out sources of coco coir.

I've been studying managing root mass, and have stumbled upon a trick today. I can remove the plant from the pot, clean up the roots very carefully, and then replant it with fresh soil in the bottom. I just spread the roots out a bit in the middle and bury it. This keeps the plant from becoming root-bound so fast. I thought they'd react stressed to this, but they're showing clear improvement since doing it. They were already trying to grow out the bottoms but were not nearly filling the space they have. I will use this technique and careful progressive replanting to reach a final size of 8 inches wide and about 7 tall. They're those 88cent plastic pots from Walmart. They fit my cabinet very well. I plan to put a total of 5 of them in my flowering chamber.

I'm starting under 4 17W T8 tubes and 1 23W daylight CFL. I am intending to replace the 23W CFL with a 17W T8 "Grow Light" since it will fit the available spot perfectly. I will either ditch the CFL or rig up one of them on each side.

The veg chamber is about a foot wide and 19 inches deep. The floor has two thick layers of Styrofoam on it to insulate against the cold. The plants are currently raised up on a couple cardboard boxes so they're away from the cold floor even further and close to the lights. The temperatures are in the low 70s now, and should improve a lot as the weather does.



The humidity is horrible really, rarely above 40, but usually 30ish. I keep a container of water in there but it doesn't do a whole lot.

Here's a picture of my Colombian Trainwreck(Colombian Gold X Trainwreck), and a Purple Haze(foreground)



Here are two other Purple Haze plants. The one in the foreground is the one that had that problem with the water-retention goo.



Here are 3 of my clones and a Trainwreck x Sour Diesel seedling in the background. There's another seedling just like that too. I've actually had worse clones than these pull through. We'll see. I keep them under a baggie to avoid humidity losses.



Here's the other one:



In the following posts I will discuss the rest of my grow cabinet plans. Thought I'd start this one with an introduction to the plants and a rough idea of how I am vegging them.

Here is a picture of my entire grow stripped down:



This is the plant profile I am seeking:



Top View layout diagram:



Side View layout diagram:



The plan is to basically do what the Phototron does. Only I plan to veg them with top-down lighting and then once they are the right height and number of nodes, I am going to move them to the flowering side where they will be in 12/12.

For my flowering setup, I have 8x T8 shop lights, 32W per tube, 16 tubes, 512W(more like 550W with all ballast draws figured), 45,000 lumens, and 250W per square foot roughly with 2.1 square feet of usable grow space. At no point in the cabinet is a plant ever more than 6 inches from a light source, and by the time they fill out, they'll just keep getting closer. I chose T8 because I am poor for one thing. I chose it because I think it also can provide very good results. T8 tubes have an amazing ability to lay right against flowering plants without frying them, if properly ventilated.

Trying to grow top-down with T8 shop lights will never give you noteworthy results. I think this is why it has been badmouthed so many times. You really have to think about how much more diffuse this source is. The intensity is not up there with HID necessarily, but the efficiency is amazing. They all run on digital ballasts and it's like the second coming of Christ in there. It doesn't look that intense once your eyes adjust but you walk out of there feeling like your eyes have been raped. I will be using sunglasses in the future!

I ran my own GFCI outlet in the top behind the false wall, so no wiring to hide, nothing to show when it's all put together. I'm very happy with the way this thing has developed. I am practically bouncing with my need to put plants in that flowering chamber. I will try to be patient!

I've made the switch to my soil mix of adding coco coir as 1/3 of the total. This really seems to make a big difference. The stuff smells amazing and it just makes the soil so nice and spongy.

The plants took to it very quickly, though I almost immediately started noticing some early signs of magnesium and calcium problems. I was told that can happen with coir, so I was ready for it. I made a foliar dip. I simply made a cover for the top of the soil, so the dirt would not fall out, and dipped the plants one at a time, not letting any get into the soil. The foliar mix was dolomite lime, epsom salts, a tiny pinch of Expert Gardener "All Purpose" green box foliar food, and about half a gallon of water. It was mixed thoroughly. Totally turned them around. They've very happy now, though they're still doing the "taco" leaf curl due to extremely bad humidity conditions.

Here's a shot of most of the plants from the veg chamber:



Also, here's my tiny little clone, struggling to regrow, and to reveg. Unknown to me, the "kitchen safe" silicone I bought and used in my bubble cloner was toxic. So I lost most of the cuttings my buddy brought me. The other one that is rooting may have no grow tips on it though I wonder if there's some hormone I can use on it to trigger new growth nodes? Right now only really the stalk and fan leaf are in decent shape. Anyway, here's that super tiny one, look at the size of it compared to regular sized perlite:



I've used kinetin spray on that clone and it really started developing new branches, so maybe I'll try that on the other one.

Finally, I have some potentially bad news. The biggest Purple Haze I have is probably male. I'll let you decide:

Hey folks! I think maybe that Purple Haze is female after all, but "she" may be a hermie. I need to be patient and see.

On the Colombian Trainwreck, I'm not seeing any signs of pistils, but I am pretty sure I see a calyx. Under my pocket microscope it's shaped just like a calyx, so I will assume the pistils just haven't formed yet. That's amazing news though as I only have one Colombian Trainwreck seedling to work with. I was afraid I would lose it to maleness.... We'll see soon enough.

I will get pics of those when they grow a bit more and can be seen by the camera.

Anyway, here's the whole veg chamber:


Here's a progress pic of my clone. She's really starting to take off. I'm excited! I will try to remember to put down a penny or something next to her so you can see how micro she is. She's seriously smaller than a pencil eraser on her top, which has around a dozen branches forming.

not to bust your grow but thats not very extreme...kinda weak

Well it's not to the point where the flowering chamber is going yet. Did you actually read the thread? Seedlings never look very extreme.

Definite progress on my one clone. Here's 3 shots. Two of the good clone, and one shot of another clone which I think no longer has any growth nodes and is just a fan leaf. Anyone have ideas on how I can chemically induce a node to form? I have a fan leaf and a root system. I just need growth tips!





And here's the one with no nodes....

Veg chamber 2/9/2009:


The "Champ":


Here is the oldest Purple Haze. This plant is confusing. The preflowers look like balls, symmetrical and all, and yet they seem to be forming pistils. I will try to be patient to make sure it's not male/hermie....


Another of the same Purple Haze:


My Colombian Trainwreck is a girl! I was not sure until I looked under a microscope, but sure as hell that's a pistil. I have NO clue where the calyx is, but there's a pistil just like that shooting out of the branch armpit next to it too. I had wondered if it was a cat hair at first, especially given there's no calyxes visible yet.

i see calyxes without pistils quite a bit - she's a woman alright. good job magic, keep up the good work. remember, less is more - not sure how long you've been growing, but you don't need a lot of crazy chemicals or techniques or things like that. just some dirt, some food, some water, and some light. once you get a couple big fatty girls kickin in bloom, THEN fuck around with experimenting on various techniques. just my own two cents. but anyway, good job, and i love the close up pics. why is it again that you are doing such super-tiny clones? kinda cool, just not sure why you wouldn't take ones a little bigger...

take care bro

Thanks for stopping in! I have been growing for about 6 years now, but I went through something of a nightmare situation and am just now restarting the whole deal back up again. I definitely wanna keep it simple this time though. Things are more secret this time thankfully.

The reason that clone is so tiny though is because it started bigger and then nearly died. I think it's still alive though it was having problems this morning. All the cuttings that were brought to me were transported badly, and then most died due to bad silicone in the cloner tank. It's my sole survivor other than a rooted fan leaf.... lol

how long is your 32 w T8 lamp ?
i found t8 32 watt but it is 90cm lenght.
i need a t8 (or t12,or t5.. ) lamp less than 70 cm for 80 cm grow tent.and i need 10000 lumens at least.

damn that's a tiny clone. i don't think i've ever done one that small, maybe 2.5 inch limit. but i'm sure it would work, once it starts going..it will take off. i never got around to trying stem rooting yet. i think i may have started the experiment, but never finished it.. for one reason or another..

cfl's are just really hot little things dude.. the surface of them can get up to 120+.. i don't use em because i do not have ventilation.. it would get wayy too hot. if your temps are up around 85-90 just removing the cfl's would make a big difference man..but if you running that blower, i think you'll be cool..

even the little 13w cfl can burn your finger to the touch ..i exhaust my bonsai mom's storage case (its in a pc case) tho, without exhaust it would easily get up to 97+, and humidity would condense on the walls.. with only a 13w cfl! but one tiny muffin fan and just cover it up externally w/a fabreeze true air carbon filter replacement (for any stink)... brings inside to 74 degree.., 30% humdity .. just enough lite to keep small mom going for the duration of flower..

the tubes just stay so much cooler then cfl.. and its true - vertical is the most efficient way to go with them. phototron style.

xoox

charlesweedmore, if you can't have lamps that long, you probably should look at the 55W PL-L lamps. They're a T5 bent in half. The efficiency is almost identical to these 32W T8 lamps, but it's much more intense. Really depends on how you use it. Look up "inefectualize", and the "High Pod" to see what I mean.

xOOx, the clone has had some problems. I'm no longer as sure of it's survival, but I will keep things updated. As for the CFL, I have a huge amount of air flow, so I'm all good on it. I stuck 3 hanging CFLs in the middle between the two sets of tubes. So that's 2 x 23W 6500K CFL, 1 x 26W 2700K CFL, and 4 x 17W T8 tubes, for a grand total of 140W in 1.5-2 square feet. They seem to be really loving it. The vertical tubes in the flowering chamber will be nice in that they have their ballasts at the top, lots of ventilation, and good bottom-to-top airflow. I'm thinking somewhere between the 20th and the 25th, I will probably be throwing my first plants into flower.

thanks mate,,
and great systemm..good luck and add more pics

hey magic, how are your clones doing?

Sadly soil mold killed the clones. They were too tiny to handle it, and I had a wedding to go to and couldn't be here to fix it. Happily though, I now have several new awesome strains, and am germinating the seeds for North #1(C99 x Blue Kiev from HTC).

The largest Purple Haze is 13-14 inchs tall, and it's about 35-45 days old roughly depending on if you start counting from germination time or from when they started to look like a plant.

Though they're not especially tall, they're dense with growth. So far the training method I'm working on has been a bit trickier than I had hoped, but it's going well despite that. Some of the very bottom branches have stretched a bit more than I'm happy with, but that should be fixable with time and TLC.

Hey Magic,

Great thread! I'm gonna follow you thru this one as my grow is similar, tho I'm not so experienced on indoor. Yet. But watching and learning, I can do that!

Keep up the good,

shuffle

Introducing North #1 from Hill Temple Collective: (Note one is sprouted for sure, one is starting to push out, but no activity from the third yet)


These two in the foreground are Trainwreck X Sour Diesel:


Here is Trainwreck X Colombian Gold in the foreground:


These three foreground plants are all Purple Haze, planted at the same time:


Last but not least, the whole happy family under all the lights. I have the following lights pictured here: Four 17w 24" T8 tubes, one 26W 5000K CFL(rear), one 23W 2700K CFL(middle), and one 26W 6500K CFL(front) for a total of about 143W in a bit under 2 square feet:

Welcome to the show Shuffle!

I've decided in the future I am removing the Pro-Mix Organic for a while. I don't like one bit that they do not list the N-P-K of this product. This lulled me into thinking this soil was not hot. Only 1/6th of my mix is made of it, but I've had nutrient burn on my large purple haze and haven't been feeding them anything. I've even been flushing the soil twice a day. This soil is HOT. I think for most people it's not so bad, but I add carbs to my soil using molasses and organic agave nectar, and I think all that bacterial development frees up a lot of nutrients out of the compost they put in this stuff. Burning has always coincided with using carbs. This is a problem with composts in general, unless their thoroughly broken-down. I think a lot of stuff that is sold could be composted a lot longer than it is. So I'll see how things go without the stuff.

The density of these plants is incredible. The pictures hardly convey it. They are just stuffed with growth top to bottom, exactly like I have been planning. Some aspects of their training has been more difficult than I had hoped, but for the most part they're just doing exactly what I want. I even cut out 6 sizeable clones from the lower branches of the Trainwreck X Colombian Gold before that last picture was taken if that tells you anything about how it's growing. I just wish it would grow up more, and out less. It's creeping upward at about half an inch per day, but it's growing outward about the same speed in all directions. Very bushy plant.

The Trainwreck X Sour Diesel babies are really coming along. They're a couple weeks younger than all the rest(except North #1), but their growth in the last few days has been incredible. I have been condensing my roots with a great deal of success. I have kept these babies in the same 4 inch square plastic pots that I started them in. I just pull them out on occasion, work the bottom roots free of their soil and put some fresh soil in the bottom of the pot, place the plant back in, and bam, denser root ball! It's totally stress-free, and the recent explosion of growth from these two babies has done nothing but testify to that. I would do this maybe every other day at most, but it really doesn't seem to slow them down at all.

Not a lot of news on the gender front. I know at least a couple of those Purple Haze are girls. The big one is ambiguous, but definitely has some pistils. Some of the younger preflowers on it are awful male-like, so I am watching for a hermie just in case. Trainwreck X Colombian Gold is definitely a girl so far, and the Trainwreck X Sour Diesel are too young to identify yet.

North #1 is an exciting addition to my grow! I grew some of these beauties years ago when Bub was posting at OG. Unfortunately spider mites and many other factors conspired to destroy them. It's a cross of Cinderella 99 and Blue Kiev(which I think is AK-47 crossed with something else). Beautiful genes though. I have wanted these badly for years and now am blessed with them again. This time I saved half of the 6 seeds I got, just in case. One is definitely sprouted, but another is clearly coming up. I hope all three of these germ, but time will tell. I just need 1 female, but if I can get a couple phenotypes of females, even better!

Sadly my little clones died. Had to keep them very moist to keep them happy, but it kept some mold happy too and they didn't like that. Lessons learned, and honestly it's not upsetting. It was a fun project and it taught me a lot about cloning, and caring for tiny cuttings. It will be useful knowledge for any situation in the future where I must rescue genetics from a very damaged cutting. As the Buddha said, "Everything is dharma"

Sorry to hear about the clones magic, I was rooting for them!

Thanks for sharing the experience with em as I too was thinking about attempting some tiny ones.

Can't wait to see some bud on those genetics :]