[gunnaknow]

Hi guys, I've been wondering about how much earlier normal strains usually finish outdoors when the've been outcrossed with an auto. I mean just once, not for several generations. I'd suspect that without further selective breeding, there would be quite a range of different phenos, some very auto, some not at all and most probably somewhere in the middle. I'm wondering what the average decrease in time might be. Have any of you grown any such f1 outcrossings outdoors? If so, what was the harvest date for the majority of them and how much earlier was this compared to the original non-auto parent strain?

I've been thinking about the possibility of creating something that finishes outdoors by mid to late august, like guerilla gold. Guerilla gold being a mighty mite cross. I think that the MM that was used was much closer to the original MM, which is smaller and faster than what's being sold as MM these days. I figured that if something even faster and more AF than MM, like BS or ML was crossed with an early non-AF strain, it should be more than possible to make a strain that finishes by mid to late august (may germination), like GG and with similar yields of around 2-4 oz, depending on space and conditions.

The only question is, how many generations would it need to be bred for to create such a strain? What would the F1s be like? Guerilla Gold has a wide range of phenos that finish at different times so perhaps if I created my own cross, the F1s would actually have a similar amount of diversity to the GG, with similar finishing dates.

I've heard good things about mighty durban (MM x DP) aswel, I wonder if durban x blue streak would be similar but even earlier, due to BS being faster than MM. I'd appreciate you sharing your thoughts. Thanks.

Gunna

[S_a_H]

I think this is a question you are going to have to answer yourself by doing some grows.

I don't think you'll find a generic time in weeks it shaves off it'll depend on the genetics used. I have been wondering something along your train of thought myself. I have some BB Sat seeds that need 12-14 weeks to finish and I have been thinking of doing a cross of the BBS to Masterlow. But I need to do a BBS grow to see for myself the time needed and again but crossing the two and last growing out the offspring.

S_a_H

[Dr Psycho]

I've Been growing mm hybrids outdoors in a high latitude ,high altitude ,shitty weather ,frost every f-in month situation for the last ten years and have pulled a crop every year, not saying I haven't lost a plant or ten but got at least something. Mighty Mite is awesome! I've had my best luck with mm x with hardy indicas. MMx dutch treat is a good one that comes in about Sept 7 here at 54n but will mold with rain.or heavy Fog. The heartiest I've seen ; MMx LiberaceX Eastern Purple I call my stabilized cross, "Spicy Mite" due to the nutmeg flavours mixed with the mm's dank pineyness. This grows like a short spreading candlabra 3'x3' and yeilds 2-4 oz outside by late aug- early sept and can give up to 6ozs in a greenhouse with lots of compost tea. The buds are loose and fluffy which leads to low commercial value, but is very resistant to mold. The shwaggy appearance also leads the un-innitiated to underestimate the powerful indica stone with comic results. My advice is get some MM beans from West Coast seeds, they are cheap enuff, and have fun- You can always smoke your mistakes or at least make hash out of them.
Save some seeds from each parent so you can back-cross and try to keep mothers alive from your f-1 generation so you can breed them with promising f-2s. Breeding is a lot of work. Take Notes, Take pictures and do your breeding in the same conditions you want to grow your plants in. Plants that do great indoors may disapoint when they have to fend for themselves on some lonely mountian top.
Last thing-Stay away from Ruderalis!!!!!!!!!! If you want Ruderalis seeds buy some "Finola"or Fin314 from a hemp farmer( Here in Canada they self for 30 bucks a kilo and produce smoke similar to LR#1 ( Worthless)

[gunnaknow]

Thanks guys. Sorry for not replying to you sooner S_a_H, I completely forgot that I'd even started this thread. I've read quite a few old posts by Ch@ppers on Planet Ganja, whose name I'm sure you recognize. He's grown out plenty of AF x Non-AF F1 hyrbrids in the past and has stated that the F1s generally finish about 2 weeks or so earlier than the non-AF parent. Not that much then but not too bad for a first cross. There should be plenty of early to mid sept strains that could be made to finish in aug with a single crossing then. I suspect that the F2s might be even earlier and an AF backcross almost certainly would but perhaps there would be a sharp division between AF and non-AF phenos, rather than a more homogenous compromise between the two.

Hi Dr Psycho, thanks for your input. Your work sounds very interesting. I'm not too sure about getting MM from West Coast Seeds though, I've read some bad reviews on their version of MM. Some of the phenos don't finish until october, apparantly. I'd be more inclined to try Canadian Bred Seeds version of MM, although I've never read any reviews of their version. I'd ideally like Breeder Brad's version because it's of old stock that hasn't been messed with. I doubt that he'll ever release it though.

One thing that I'm unsure about is whether or not MM might be more suitable for my breeding purposes than fully AF strains like LR. MM has been selectively bred for it's earliness and not exclusively for the AF trait. So it still posesses an early AF expression trait, along with a late AF expression trait and a highly photoperiod sensitive non-AF trait. Whereas, LR and it's progeny have only been selectively bred for the early AF expression trait. The question that this brings up is whether AF outcrossings will result in a sharp division between phenos, so that they either display AF or non-AF, or whether there will be some middle ground phenos that are semi-AF, like the majority of MM's phenos.

What I'm after is a cross that doesn't display a sharp division between AF phenos and non-AF phenos but rather displays the majority of phenos somewhere in the middle, that are very photoperiod sensitive or that express AF quite late. I'm after a cross that compromises between the earliness of fully AF strains and the yield of non-AF strains. The question is, whether or not LR and it's progeny are suitable for achieving this, or whether their propensity to flower under 24/0 can combine with a non-AFs propensity to flower under say 14/10, to produce a cross that displays phenos that flower under a photoperiod somewhere in the middle. That, or a relatively late AF expression. Anything for a half decent veg period, to get a decent yield.

I have a feeling that it might not work like that and that phenos from any AF/non-AF filial cross will either be completely AF or completely non-AF. I think that AFs like LR and it's progeny might have just been too selectively bred for the early AF trait, at the expense of any highly photoperiod sensitive traits or late AF traits, for my breeding purposes. The MM is perhaps a little bit more like how the original LR was before it was stabilized. Posessing the genetics for early AF expression, late AF expression and the highly photoperiod sensitive expression traits, all from the original ruderalis.

It might be the presense of these late AF expression traits and the highly photoperiod senstive traits that are required to make crosses that result in semi-auto strains that finish very early but not too early and that compromise between the size and yield of non-AFs and AFs. There is much to ponder. I don't know whether or not anything that I said made any sense to you. Sorry if what I wrote is a little repetative in places, I've had almost no sleep.


Gunna