Producing s2 seeds from a s1 landrace??? - Landraces - International Cannagraphic Magazine Forums

peps1 · 09-30-2008, 04:15 PM

Hi guys, i have some feminized s1 landrace seeds that i would like to self seed.....just wondering what the ramifications are regards the phenotypes of the s2 offspring will be.

Rgd · 10-01-2008, 01:00 PM

The real truth is that many people have different opinions about your question.

I would guess very few of them have ever done an s1 let alone an s2 .

So, just do it and get back to us on the outcome.

Grat3fulh3ad · 10-01-2008, 01:09 PM

As far as the 'genetic math' goes, since what most of you guys call an S1, most botanists call an f2... Making 'S2s' you are actually making f3s... If the 'S1' was accidental from a hermie, then that trait will continue to be passed into the progeny...

Other that that rgd is fairly correct in that the only real way to know the outcome of a breeding project is to do said project... best of luck.

peps1 · 10-01-2008, 02:32 PM

thank you both for your comments, I will start the experiment and post updates in the forum.

Think botanists only use Filial F1,2,3 etc for distinctly different parental types, f1 having double the potential phenotypes as S1 due to the cross..... not sure if that's semantics or has relevance to volume of phenotypes in S1's?

regards the seeds being a S1/F2fem due to hermie, the plant was chemically reversed rather then it being a genetic trite to pass on.

Grat3fulh3ad · 10-01-2008, 03:12 PM

No need for me to get into a designation argument... I'm well versed in proper botanical nomenclature...

If the plant which was selfed was heterozygous, then the fx designations will apply, as will the genetic math relating to incrossing sibling hybrid progeny...
If it was an inbred line... then the progeny you are calling 's2' will be not much different from any other sibling inbreeding from that line...

As far as an F1 having double the possibly phenotypes as an S1... That's simply wrong...

Breed two differing homozygous plants to produce an F1 hybrid, and the progeny will all be very uniform.

Breed one of those heterozygous progeny to itself (or a sibling, it makes no difference), and you will get several different genotypes as a result... roughly 25% like each grandparent and 50% like the plant you selfed...

So depending on which S1(F2) you select, the resulting S2(F3) generation could produce mostly plants resembling either grandparent or give you another 25/25/50 split...

As well as the fact that for each of the 3 (or 4 or 5 or more, depending on the hybrid) major genotypes is going to have phenotypical variation within a certain range...

The number of phenotypes in an S1 or S2 or F2 or F3 depends on the heterozygous-ness of the parent(s) selected....

In short... selfing is no more a guarantee of uniform offspring than back crossing is... They are both useful tools in refining a gene pool, but no "panacea of uniformity"... They can be used as steps toward increasing trait frequency, but that is about the extent of their usefulness...

Upon re-reading your original statement... It was a homozygous land-race which was selfed... The progeny and their progeny will be no different from most representatives of said land-race who's parentage was selected for desirable traits... Breeding within a land-race gene-pool and selecting superior plants will increase the frequency of the traits you selected for... But, selfing a plant will never produce 'carbon copies' of said plant...

peps1 · 10-01-2008, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grat3fulh3ad

No need for me to get into a designation argument... I'm well versed in proper botanical nomenclature...

Easy there mate, its not like I was taking your mother from behind while poring sugar in your gas tank!
Was just telling you what I “thought” sincerely happy you took the time to correct me and include so much relevant information (have even printed out your post)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grat3fulh3ad

Upon re-reading your original statement... It was a homozygous land-race which was selfed... The progeny and their progeny will be no different from most representatives of said land-race who's parentage was selected for desirable traits... Breeding within a land-race gene-pool and selecting superior plants will increase the frequency of the traits you selected for... But, selfing a plant will never produce 'carbon copies' of said plant...

Thank you for re-reading.

~CH9~ · 10-20-2008, 04:56 AM

Peps1,if this selfed plant pollinated herself,there is strong chances that the results will be similar or a bit stronger than the plant itself ,to keep it simple.

if you used her pollen to pollinated a sister plant you will have maybe more phenotypes depending how uniform they were and if you use her pollen on another strain you will have more genotypes and phenotypes.

09-30-2008, 04:15 PM	#1
peps1 Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 46	Producing s2 seeds from a s1 landrace??? Hi guys, i have some feminized s1 landrace seeds that i would like to self seed.....just wondering what the ramifications are regards the phenotypes of the s2 offspring will be. __________________ I Got A Fever And The Only Remedy Is More Cowbell
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10-01-2008, 01:09 PM	#3
Grat3fulh3ad The Voice of Reason Join Date: May 2006 Location: Shambhala Posts: 8,461	As far as the 'genetic math' goes, since what most of you guys call an S1, most botanists call an f2... Making 'S2s' you are actually making f3s... If the 'S1' was accidental from a hermie, then that trait will continue to be passed into the progeny... Other that that rgd is fairly correct in that the only real way to know the outcome of a breeding project is to do said project... best of luck. __________________ Plant Nutrition Understanding Inorganic Salts "In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. ... It happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." – Carl Sagan "There is rebirth of character, but no transmigration of a self. Thy thought-forms reappear, but there is no egoentity transferred. The stanza uttered by a teacher is reborn in the scholar who repeats the words. Only through ignorance and delusion do men indulge in the dream that their souls are separate and self-existent entities.""Our thinking is gone, but our thoughts continue. Reasoning ceases, but knowledge remains." – Buddha
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10-01-2008, 02:32 PM	#4
peps1 Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 46	thank you both for your comments, I will start the experiment and post updates in the forum. Think botanists only use Filial F1,2,3 etc for distinctly different parental types, f1 having double the potential phenotypes as S1 due to the cross..... not sure if that's semantics or has relevance to volume of phenotypes in S1's? regards the seeds being a S1/F2fem due to hermie, the plant was chemically reversed rather then it being a genetic trite to pass on. __________________ I Got A Fever And The Only Remedy Is More Cowbell
	Quote

10-01-2008, 03:12 PM	#5
Grat3fulh3ad The Voice of Reason Join Date: May 2006 Location: Shambhala Posts: 8,461	No need for me to get into a designation argument... I'm well versed in proper botanical nomenclature... If the plant which was selfed was heterozygous, then the fx designations will apply, as will the genetic math relating to incrossing sibling hybrid progeny... If it was an inbred line... then the progeny you are calling 's2' will be not much different from any other sibling inbreeding from that line... As far as an F1 having double the possibly phenotypes as an S1... That's simply wrong... Breed two differing homozygous plants to produce an F1 hybrid, and the progeny will all be very uniform. Breed one of those heterozygous progeny to itself (or a sibling, it makes no difference), and you will get several different genotypes as a result... roughly 25% like each grandparent and 50% like the plant you selfed... So depending on which S1(F2) you select, the resulting S2(F3) generation could produce mostly plants resembling either grandparent or give you another 25/25/50 split... As well as the fact that for each of the 3 (or 4 or 5 or more, depending on the hybrid) major genotypes is going to have phenotypical variation within a certain range... The number of phenotypes in an S1 or S2 or F2 or F3 depends on the heterozygous-ness of the parent(s) selected.... In short... selfing is no more a guarantee of uniform offspring than back crossing is... They are both useful tools in refining a gene pool, but no "panacea of uniformity"... They can be used as steps toward increasing trait frequency, but that is about the extent of their usefulness... Upon re-reading your original statement... It was a homozygous land-race which was selfed... The progeny and their progeny will be no different from most representatives of said land-race who's parentage was selected for desirable traits... Breeding within a land-race gene-pool and selecting superior plants will increase the frequency of the traits you selected for... But, selfing a plant will never produce 'carbon copies' of said plant... __________________ Plant Nutrition Understanding Inorganic Salts "In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. ... It happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." – Carl Sagan "There is rebirth of character, but no transmigration of a self. Thy thought-forms reappear, but there is no egoentity transferred. The stanza uttered by a teacher is reborn in the scholar who repeats the words. Only through ignorance and delusion do men indulge in the dream that their souls are separate and self-existent entities.""Our thinking is gone, but our thoughts continue. Reasoning ceases, but knowledge remains." – Buddha
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10-20-2008, 04:56 AM	#7
~CH9~ Banned Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 1,059	Peps1,if this selfed plant pollinated herself,there is strong chances that the results will be similar or a bit stronger than the plant itself ,to keep it simple. if you used her pollen to pollinated a sister plant you will have maybe more phenotypes depending how uniform they were and if you use her pollen on another strain you will have more genotypes and phenotypes. Last edited by ~CH9~; 10-20-2008 at 05:02 AM..
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10-01-2008, 01:00 PM	#2
Rgd Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 183	The real truth is that many people have different opinions about your question. I would guess very few of them have ever done an s1 let alone an s2 . So, just do it and get back to us on the outcome.
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