Vintage Mexican, Seed germination and Micro propagation techniques.

Mystic Funk · Nov 27, 2016

vermontman said:
Awesome job Mystic, your killing it!
Just a thought my Oaxacan from 79 ran pretty good sized seeds, Just my 2 cents. looking forward to your progress.

Thank you very much vermontman!
We'll see what I get out of these seeds. :biggrin:

That would be awesome if I got something like your 79 Oaxacan! :woohoo:

that's just what I hear about the seed size I could be wrong?

peace!
mystic :tiphat:

vermontman · Nov 27, 2016

Mystic Funk said:
Thank you very much vermontman!
We'll see what I get out of these seeds.
That would be awesome if I got something like your 79 Oaxacan!
that's just what I hear about the seed size I could be wrong?

peace!
mystic

You are most welcome Mystic!
As a general rule I think you are correct, and of course there were and are still many different growers and strains in Oaxaca region alone. I wish I could go back in time to the farm my Oaxacan came from to see them growing there, it must have be quite a sight. I believe the earliest flowering plants you get from your bounty may be just that. Mine flowered beautifully back in 79 by mid Oct, That could be your key to selecting those out.
Another clue is even if some flower more quickly if they don't bulk up with big buds from seed under lights don't be disappointed, mine don't. But cuts of those under lights get quite bulky.
I have my fingers crossed for you.

satva · Nov 27, 2016

Copalita Oaxacan - 4

Copalita Oaxacan - 4

Mystic Funk, very interesting project.

I'd categorize phenotypes by a combination of leaf size,growth structure, and aroma. E

Extreme NLD - P1 landrace Mexican varieties might flower for + 20 weeks. NLD / WLD P1 landrace Mexican varieties might flower for 11 - 12 weeks. Taliban, drug cartels introduced hybridization fairly early in Mexico. I'm sure your friend saved seeds from his or her favorites. i wish i still had the coffee can of 1975 Highland Oaxacan Gold seeds.

Elchisicas (sp?) here on IcMag noted 8 cannabis varieites were grown in Oaxaca.

Most of the Acapulco Gold grows I've seen had WLD influence. 1960 - 1970 Acapuclo Gold would probably flower for 17 - 19 weeks. Mexicani-ar noted that Bodhi's Acapulco Gold flowers for 17 - 19 weeks.

I selected two long flowering phenotypes from 2010 Copalita Oaxacan. Copalita - 1 flowers for 16 weeks and Copalita - 4 flowers for 20 weeks. The high and growth structure from Copalita - 1 is Mexican all the way. The high from Copalita - 4 is Asian influenced.

Colombian seeds are dark brown with black mottling / striping. Colombian leaves would be ultra thin NLD even as seedlings.

SamS did a contest / question where he ask. The mother came from a plant with small seeds and the father came from a plant with big seeds. What size will the seeds of the progeny be? The answer is small as seed size follows calyx size, and the female traits determine calyx size. Calyx size is a factor of the grow, bigger mature plants will have bigger calyxes, smaller mature plants will have bigger seeds. In general extreme NLD sativas will have smaller seeds and WLD indicas, bigger seeds.

The calyx size on Copalita Oaxacan -4 ( 20 weeks) are tiny and if the pollen took the seeds will be tiny.

Mystic Funk · Nov 27, 2016

vermontman said:
You are most welcome Mystic!
As a general rule I think you are correct, and of course there were and are still many different growers and strains in Oaxaca region alone. I wish I could go back in time to the farm my Oaxacan came from to see them growing there, it must have be quite a sight. I believe the earliest flowering plants you get from your bounty may be just that. Mine flowered beautifully back in 79 by mid Oct, That could be your key to selecting those out.
Another clue is even if some flower more quickly if they don't bulk up with big buds from seed under lights don't be disappointed, mine don't. But cuts of those under lights get quite bulky.
I have my fingers crossed for you.

satva said:
Mystic Funk, very interesting project.

I'd categorize phenotypes by a combination of leaf size,growth structure, and aroma. Elcha

Extreme NLD - P1 landrace Mexican varieties might flower for + 20 weeks. NLD / WLD P1 landrace Mexican varieties might flower for 11 - 12 weeks. Taliban, drug cartels introduced hybridization fairly early in Mexico. I'm sure your friend saved seeds from his or her favorites. i wish i still had the coffee can of 1975 Highland Oaxacan Gold seeds.

Elchasicas noted 8 cannabis varieites were grown in Oaxaca.

Most of the Acapulco Gold grows I've seen had WLD influence. 1960 - 1970 Acapuclo Gold would probably flower for 17 - 19 weeks. Mexicani-ar noted that Bodhi's Acapulco Gold flowers for 17 - 19 weeks.

I selected two long flowering phenotypes from 2010 Copalita Oaxacan. Copalita - 1 flowers for 16 weeks and Copalita - 4 flowers for 20 weeks. The high and growth structure from Copalita - 1 is Mexican all the way. The high from Copalita - 4 is Asian influenced.

Colombian seeds are dark brown with black mottling / striping. Colombian leaves would be ultra thin NLD even as seedlings.

SamS did a contest / question where he ask. The mother came from a plant with small seeds and the father came from a plant with big seeds. What size will the seeds of the progeny be? The answer is small as seed size follows calyx size, and the female traits determine calyx size. Calyx size is a factor of the grow, bigger mature plants will have bigger calyxes, smaller mature plants will have bigger seeds. In general extreme NLD sativas will have smaller seeds and WLD indicas, bigger seeds.

The calyx size on Copalita Oaxacan -4 ( 20 weeks) are tiny and if the pollen took the seeds will be tiny.

<a href="https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=65726&pictureid=1677937" target="_blank">View Image <a href="https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=65726&pictureid=1677936" target="_blank">View Image <a href="https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=65726&pictureid=1677934" target="_blank">View Image <a href="https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=65726&pictureid=1677935" target="_blank">View Image

thank you both for the info. :tiphat:

I will also be vegging these out under 13on/11off light cycle to hopefully weed out any heavy indica traits.
The longest days in panama, Oaxaca and Columbia are about 13 hours long and the shortest are about 11 hours.
so i'm going to do my best to match that climate and light cycle.

back_woods · Nov 29, 2016

mystic
just found this thread subbed up man. looking forward to see what show's up in here

3rdEye · Nov 29, 2016

Salurations Mystic!

here are two pics of two 1979 seedlings. They are nice and healthy.
I am excited to see how yours are growing too.

mexicani-ar · Nov 29, 2016

Great thread Mystic , definitely looking forward to your updates, saludos Mexicani-ar

Mystic Funk · Nov 30, 2016

back_woods said:
mystic
just found this thread subbed up man. looking forward to see what show's up in here

3rdEye said:
Salurations Mystic! here are two pics of two 1979 seedlings. They are nice and healthy.
I am excited to see how yours are growing too.

<a href="http://www.dayzeddesigns.com/viewer.php?file=losabxe1e1f9ffadiznt.jpg" target="_blank">View Image

<a href="http://www.dayzeddesigns.com/viewer.php?file=mcntfut9066in41ricnj.jpg" target="_blank">View Image

mexicani-ar said:
Great thread Mystic , definitely looking forward to your updates, saludos Mexicani-ar

Thank you guys!

Updates coming this week guys, i'm just finishing up my GA3 test and i'll post up the results. :biggrin:

Hey 3rdeye.
Those are looking good man! :woohoo:

i'll get some updated pics of my Mexican seedling up soon.

Also if anyone has any good germination methods for old seeds, please post them up! i'm all ears!

peace!
-mystic :tiphat:

ahortator · Nov 30, 2016

Hi

It is very interesting. Not only that you are saved all those old seeds from perhaps now long ago dissapeared strains, but your discovery of the increasing of the germination rate in the worm bins.

Do you think it woul be possible to get similar results with worm castings bought from the store? Or they must be fresh?

About the GA3. I have seen a video with good germination rated in old seeds using 250ppm GA3. Perhaps 300ppm with very hard to sprout really old seeds could increase the rate.

I talk of what I've read because here is difficult to find GA3 and I have not tested it myself.

There are some other recipes:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=294735

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=303149

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=299537

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=290948

I have germinated one seed, not very old but not well preserved. A friend gave me three seeds, and they didn't sprout. So I put them in tap water with other seeds to see if they have gibberelins that help the others to sprout: first with beans, later with lentils, chickpeas, and finaly with barley. Changing the water sometimes because it became jelly and rinsed the seeds. One seed began to open so I rinse the seeds and put them in wet paper towels. The opening seed actually was rotten but other sprouted. That was 4 month after they failed to sprout the first time.

I have tried it later a few times with other old seeds but without luck.

I have tryed to germinate seeds that doesn't sprout with Aloe leaf, suposedly high in GA's, garlic cloves, Ipomoea cuttings and willow water but none seed sprouted.

Your method with worm castings seems very interesting. I am waiting for your results with GA3.

Greetings.

newhousegreen · Dec 1, 2016

Hi MysticFunk. Did you try syntetic auxins? This might help your labor with germing seeds. All the best.

Mystic Funk · Dec 2, 2016

ahortator said:
Hi

It is very interesting. Not only that you are saved all those old seeds from perhaps now long ago dissapeared strains, but your discovery of the increasing of the germination rate in the worm bins.

Do you think it woul be possible to get similar results with worm castings bought from the store? Or they must be fresh?

About the GA3. I have seen a video with good germination rated in old seeds using 250ppm GA3. Perhaps 300ppm with very hard to sprout really old seeds could increase the rate.

I talk of what I've read because here is difficult to find GA3 and I have not tested it myself.

There are some other recipes:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=294735

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=303149

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=299537

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=290948

I have germinated one seed, not very old but not well preserved. A friend gave me three seeds, and they didn't sprout. So I put them in tap water with other seeds to see if they have gibberelins that help the others to sprout: first with beans, later with lentils, chickpeas, and finaly with barley. Changing the water sometimes because it became jelly and rinsed the seeds. One seed began to open so I rinse the seeds and put them in wet paper towels. The opening seed actually was rotten but other sprouted. That was 4 month after they failed to sprout the first time.

I have tried it later a few times with other old seeds but without luck.

I have tryed to germinate seeds that doesn't sprout with Aloe leaf, suposedly high in GA's, garlic cloves, Ipomoea cuttings and willow water but none seed sprouted.

Your method with worm castings seems very interesting. I am waiting for your results with GA3.

Greetings.

Thanks ahortator!
your question about worms: I don't think store bought worm castings would work as good, because they are not as alive as fresh worm castings. the ones at the store can be very old and most if not all the beneficial bacteria has died off.

Malting barley: I was looking into this because I heard somewhere that if you malt barley with other seeds it will release enzymes that can speed up the germination process in the other seeds. I will look into this further to see if it's true.

Aloe: I have never heard of using aloe. I have a very large aloe plant I have been growing for many years. I wonder if I could just squeeze some of the juice out and make different strengths and test them side by side would this work?

Also thank you ahortator for all the thread links! I will look at these more and see if there's anything interesting in these. :tiphat:

newhousegreen said:
Hi MysticFunk. Did you try syntetic auxins? This might help your labor with germing seeds. All the best.

thanks newhousegreen for the suggestion!
This is actually one I was thinking about doing. :biggrin:

I have an array of synthetic auxins and hormones for my tissue culture experiments. so I could easily make up a few different batches in plain water with no agar and see if it helps with germination.

peace!
-mystic :tiphat:

Mystic Funk · Dec 3, 2016

GA3 test

GA3 test

Gibberellic acid test
I’ll start off by explaining a little about what GA3 is, if you don’t know what it is or what it does.
Gibberellic acid is in a class of plant growth regulators that are also known as gibberellins. These are found naturally in plants and fungi. They can be used in higher doses to control stem elongation, break seed dormancy, help with fruit sets and flower production, and also they can be used to change sex expression in plants. In very high doses it will have the opposite effect. I have seen this personally while running experiments with sex reversal on cannabis; not only did the plant’s sex not change, it mutated heavily and then quit growing all together.

How to properly prepare GA3.
The GA3 I have is 90% pure and in powder form. GA3 isn’t water soluble, One needs to dissolve the GA3 in 90% or higher Ethylene or Isopropyl alcohol first before adding to water. I like to add the solvent/GA3 to the water then let it sit out over night to let the excess solvent gas off. Adding to warm water may speed this process up.
I won’t get into how I achieve the correct ppm, as that will vary with different grades and purities of GA3. Most good quality GA3 will come with instructions and a chart to get the correct ppm. Also if you don’t know where to buy it, most auction sites sell it in various grades and quantities.

Ok! back to seed popping now. So I mixed two different ppm’s of GA3 to start out. One is 200 ppm and one at 400 ppm. I let the seeds soak in the solution for 24 hours then I placed the seeds in paper towels on a dinner plate that was placed on a heat mat set to 75 to 80F.
Test Results
All the seeds that did pop, sprouted very rapidly and were very elongated due to the GA3. Other than that they look healthy and are growing fine. I did see a good increase in germination rates compared To the control test. With the 200 ppm solution I got 26% germination rate and with the 400 ppm solution I got 20%.
So by doubling the solution I didn’t see any increase in germination and it’s too soon in growth to see if it effected the plants negatively in any way other than them be stretched out.

Here are some of the sprouts
GA3 200 ppm

GA3 400 ppm

Here they are a few days later

peace!
-mystic

Kush_Kloud · Dec 3, 2016

Amazing Mystic Funk! Which strain or strains?

Mystic Funk · Dec 3, 2016

Kush_Kloud said:
Amazing Mystic Funk! Which strain or strains?

thanks kush kloud!
All the vintage mexican i'm doing the tests with are very old ''mixed seeds'' from all over Mexico and possibly some from Columbia.

I also have some known Mexican seeds like panama and Oaxacan I just started that i'll post up later.

peace!
-mystic :tiphat:

ahortator · Dec 3, 2016

Hi

It could be possible to tell apart Colombian from Mexican seeds. The seeds from the two origins are very valuable.

Mexican strains are thought of as tall, upright plants of moderate to large size with light to dark green, large leaves. The leaves are made up of long, medium width, moderately serrated leaflets arranged in a circular array. The plants mature relatively early in comparison to strains from Colombia or Thailand and produce
many long floral clusters with a high calyx-to-leaf ratio and highly cerebral psychoactivity. Michoacan strains tend to have very slender leaves and a very high calyx-to-leaf ratio as do Guerreran strains, but Oaxacan strains tend to be broader-leafed, often with leafier floral clusters. Oaxacan strains are generally the largest and grow vigorously, while Michoacan strains are smaller and more delicate. Guerreran strains are often short and develop long, upright lower limbs. Seeds from most Mexican strains are fairly large, ovoid, and slightly flattened with a light colored grey or brown, unmottled perianth. Smaller, darker, more mottled seeds have appeared in Mexican marijuana during recent years. This may indicate that hybridization is taking place in Mexico, possibly with introduced seed from the largest seed source in the world, Colombia. No commercial seeded Cannabis crops are free from hybridization and great variation may occur in the offspring. More recently, large amounts of hybrid domestic seed have been introduced into Mexico. It is not uncommon to find Thai and Afghani phenotypes in recent shipments of Cannabis from Mexico.

Marijuana Botany
An Advanced Study: The Propagation and
Breeding of Distinctive Cannabis
by Robert Connell Clarke

Greetings.

Mystic Funk · Dec 3, 2016

thanks for that post ahortator!
I love reading stuff like that so I know what to look for.
I will keep a eye out for those traits.
As you can see in the pictures in the first post, the seeds i have very little if any strips. :biggrin:

Here are the Mexican seedlings. they are doing great! :woohoo:

these are all from the large seeds. I think the very small and x-large ones hold more promise. we'll see!

Kush_Kloud · Dec 3, 2016

Wow they grow quick!

Mystic Funk · Dec 3, 2016

Kush_Kloud said:
Wow they grow quick!

yeah I know that's because i'm growing them :biggrin:

.....just kidding!
Those are the first ones I popped they are the ones from the worm bins and their doing the best so far.

peace!

Kush_Kloud · Dec 3, 2016

Oh okay. I'm glad to see that these germination methods actually work. I'm definitely going to use them, in the future when I need it. Keep up the good work Mystic Funk! Peace

KK

vermontman · Dec 6, 2016

Mystic Funk said:
thanks for that post ahortator!
I love reading stuff like that so I know what to look for.
I will keep a eye out for those traits.
As you can see in the pictures in the first post, the seeds i have very little if any strips.

Here are the Mexican seedlings. they are doing great!
these are all from the large seeds. I think the very small and x-large ones hold more promise. we'll see!

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Vintage Mexican, Seed germination and Micro propagation techniques.

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