Growing in Coco 10 years. Lost my way

siftedunity · Jan 25, 2018

Lester Beans said:
I wasn't just trying to suggest if the plant looks like it has too much N raise the pH.

Quite the conundrum here. I'll re read the thread. Gotta be a solution.

Vibes

Yes I understand.. But feeding at higher pH won't solve the issue, is what I was trying to say. The feed shouldn't have too much n tbh. Idk.. I did work it out with the canna stats calculator before this run but forgot the numbers. Will check the numbers and post it up later. Did a flush of 50% ro, 50% tap and a half strength 3 days ago then ro for the last two days with cal mag at 2.5ml per gallon and the regular feed. So ppm going was 600ppms all together. Looking good for now but will wait and see. Oh ph is going in at 5.9 for now.

Midwest Toker · Jan 25, 2018

10 yr coir grower here also, I can help with deciphering the water report if you can post it.
I run just about the same as you with 400-500 ppm (0.8-1.0 ec) max.
i've come to the conclusion that with a balanced nutrient regime no need for run-off every time in coir. I've done whole grows with zero feeds to run-off.

One thing i would also consider is that you've ran these strains for awhile you said. Do you start from seed or cuttings? If from cuttings how old is the original mother?

So just some shots of plants grown in coir the way I do it now.

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dansbuds · Jan 25, 2018

Midwest Toker said:
10 yr coir grower here also, I can help with deciphering the water report if you can post it.
I run just about the same as you with 400-500 ppm (0.8-1.0 ec) max.
i've come to the conclusion that with a balanced nutrient regime no need for run-off every time in coir. I've done whole grows with zero feeds to run-off.

One thing i would also consider is that you've ran these strains for awhile you said. Do you start from seed or cuttings? If from cuttings how old is the original mother?

So just some shots of plants grown in coir the way I do it now.
View Image[/url] https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=35255&pictureid=1712966 View Image https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=50704&pictureid=1557960 View Image

what size pots you using midwest ? & how many per light ?

i go more for the bigger plants in bigger pots with less plants under a light & do pretty well , but i'm always interested in seeing how others do it .

Midwest Toker · Jan 25, 2018

Those are 9 liter pots (2.38 gal) first pics were grown 12 to a 4x4 with 600 watts of HPS. Yeild was 30 O's of sellable bud with 1 1/2 O of larf that went into the hash bin. Strain was G-13. 25 days veg from rooted cuttings. The ones on the cabinets where a 21 day veg and yeilded 28 O's from the same 4x4 under 600 watts of HPS. Strain is Blue Mango.
The last pic is my perpetual multi-strain grow and I average around 1 1/2 lbs per month from 750 watts of DE HPS. Sometimes my canopy get a little crowded in that room. All grown the same way with little to no run-off.

dansbuds · Jan 25, 2018

Midwest Toker said:
Those are 9 liter pots (2.38 gal) first pics were grown 12 to a 4x4 with 600 watts of HPS. Yeild was 30 O's of sellable bud with 1 1/2 O of larf that went into the hash bin. Strain was G-13. 25 days veg from rooted cuttings. The ones on the cabinets where a 21 day veg and yeilded 28 O's from the same 4x4 under 600 watts of HPS. Strain is Blue Mango.
The last pic is my perpetual multi-strain grow and I average around 1 1/2 lbs per month from 750 watts of DE HPS. Sometimes my canopy get a little crowded in that room. All grown the same way with little to no run-off.

Nice !!! i use very little runoff myself & feed no more than 1.2EC in flower . so far so good in the last 6 years .

my canopy now in this new room is a little to packed , but i just moved in here & the veg went a little longer than i normally do , so they're getting huge fast ! started defoliating last night & still have quite aways to go lol

these gorilla berrys are doing ok ....

But the cherry cookies got away from me & i'm hoping i can thin them out a bit over the next few days

they're both at 34 days today ..... still have 36 to go lol

Midwest Toker · Jan 26, 2018

I've been growing off and on since the mid 70's. One thing I've learned is there are many ways to grow this plant.

blaze361 · Jan 29, 2018

Broggemann said:
Plain and simple:
You can overwater coco.

I had exactly the same problems, but in my case the pH climbed instead of falling down.
But I also had n-toxicity at very low ppms, couldnt figure out the problem for years!
One thing that got my attention though, problems started as soon as I began multifeeding.

The more I read online on forums, the more certain I was that I might just not water enough, maybe I should start multifeeding earlier or feed even more often.

As I watered less, let the coco dry out between waterings (not to the point of total dryness, of course), the problems went away.

So, I know that these debate will be going on FOREVER, but I found my answer: yes, you can.

I'd like to second this point. I've been having the same problems as OP. Nitrogen toxicity, burnt tips, curled leaves right up against the buds. Super premature flowers. Terribly small buds especially at the tops.
No bugs. Environment on point. 400-500 ppm. Ph 5.8-6.1

I've been so concerned about under watering that it never occurred to me that I may be over watering.

It makes perfect sense though. The plants most affected were the smaller ones that require less water.
My second table is exactly 2 weeks behind showing less traits of the affliction. I was hand watering the second table just before they got too dry out of laziness. I finally got around to setting up the irrigation system and put it on the same timer as my other table and started noticing leaf curling on the second as well.

After reading this thread, it occurred to me that I didn't take into account the fact that I used to time the watering to run off as little as possible like other stay-wet coco guys. I just been soaking it through to ensure the most demanding plants get fully watered without thinking about the other sized pots on the table and how it might affect them.

gaiusmarius · Jan 29, 2018

i don't understand why people think changing the proportions of A+B is a good idea. it's made to be used together in equal parts.

only reason it's not in one bottle is because some ingredients react badly if they are mixed in the concentrated form.

you need to use equal amounts of both all the time. the secret is not to use the recommended amount, many clone only strains will not be able to cope with the full dose they recommend. when in doubt better give too little then too much. ec of 1.5 is very safe and will get you good results with most strains. slightly hungry plants will make way bigger buds then slightly over fed which will give crap yields with more delicate strains.

Midwest Toker · Jan 29, 2018

So here are some shots of what overwatering in coir can get you if the plants can't handle wet feet all the time. This is a picky strain that like less than 400 ppm (0.8 ec)and hates wet feet.

siftedunity · Jan 30, 2018

Midwest toker, thanks for your contribution. Quite rude if Me not to say thanks before but I've had so much shit going on..

Ok man love your first pics..
Very interesting that the over watered ones you posted seem to have some signs of nitrogen toxicity on some lower leaves.

I might be guilty of over watering. I've basically purmt everything on drippers and been striving for the whole multi waterings.

But quite possible that I've been over doing it. I used to water the plants as they started to dry of slightly. Then water about a litre per plant. These were anout 10l pots. That would generally get them through 24 hours and then again. Yields we're good.
No toxicity.
But the more I read. The more Im thinking that I'm multifeeding way to soon.

I've switched full to ro so will be watching progress. Definitely seeing improvements but then again its around this time they snap out of it anyway.

siftedunity · Jan 30, 2018

Midwest Toker said:
10 yr coir grower here also, I can help with deciphering the water report if you can post it.
I run just about the same as you with 400-500 ppm (0.8-1.0 ec) max.
i've come to the conclusion that with a balanced nutrient regime no need for run-off every time in coir. I've done whole grows with zero feeds to run-off.

One thing i would also consider is that you've ran these strains for awhile you said. Do you start from seed or cuttings? If from cuttings how old is the original mother?

So just some shots of plants grown in coir the way I do it now.
View Image[/url] [URL=https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=35255&pictureid=1712966&thumb=1]View Image[/url] [URL=https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=50704&pictureid=1557960&thumb=1]View Image[/url]

Ok when I'm on my laptop I will post the water PDF.
I've had these cuts for years.. But I don't keep mothers, I'm constantly vegging plants and when o e lot goes into flower, I take cuttings to veg the next round. So basically no vegging plant is over a month or 2 in age. At any point.

siftedunity · Jan 30, 2018

Midwest Toker said:
Those are 9 liter pots (2.38 gal) first pics were grown 12 to a 4x4 with 600 watts of HPS. Yeild was 30 O's of sellable bud with 1 1/2 O of larf that went into the hash bin. Strain was G-13. 25 days veg from rooted cuttings. The ones on the cabinets where a 21 day veg and yeilded 28 O's from the same 4x4 under 600 watts of HPS. Strain is Blue Mango.
The last pic is my perpetual multi-strain grow and I average around 1 1/2 lbs per month from 750 watts of DE HPS. Sometimes my canopy get a little crowded in that room. All grown the same way with little to no run-off.

Just curious, what volume of feed are you watering with in 9ltr pots? And how many times a day.. Thanks again!

siftedunity · Jan 30, 2018

gaiusmarius said:
i don't understand why people think changing the proportions of A+B is a good idea. it's made to be used together in equal parts.

only reason it's not in one bottle is because some ingredients react badly if they are mixed in the concentrated form.

you need to use equal amounts of both all the time. the secret is not to use the recommended amount, many clone only strains will not be able to cope with the full dose they recommend. when in doubt better give too little then too much. ec of 1.5 is very safe and will get you good results with most strains. slightly hungry plants will make way bigger buds then slightly over fed which will give crap yields with more delicate strains.

I'd generally agree but if you look at Lucas formula that uses different amounts of an a and b. And advanced nutrients tends to be slightly o. The higher side with the n. Plus, the a part is mainly nitrogen and lots of amino acids etc. So since I was having n problems, I just assumed it was a good thing to experiment with. But yeah I wouldn't recommend changing amounts either.

I think the general consensus is the fed half strength to what the bottle says. I always have at least..although I will say that I feed clones full feeds in coco straight if the bat. At 800ppm. Which is 3ml per liter when the bottle says 4ml per ltr.

Not quite sure why people go so low with clones. Seedlings I'd defo feed lower though. But my veg I've very happy with. Its just the flowering that's kicking my ass

Midwest Toker · Jan 30, 2018

I would look at maybe genetic shift. Just from my experience some plants can go for decades being cloned from clone and others that loss their vigor in a year. Especially if the plants are stressed any.

Midwest Toker · Jan 30, 2018

Around 1200 ml single daily feedings for 9 lt pots.

Buddler · Jan 30, 2018

Hi thought id jump in here I'm thinking do the wet dry cycle and get that pot rootbound so it dries out between feeds. Then multifeed rocks. 10 lt pot is big more veg time .. I like one gall pots with multifeeds then you get the hydro type growth with good runoff . But like mentioned many ways to grow in coco.. IVE been adding cheap mycos at transplant and have really improved the roots ,which is the base of all those big colas . Just sharing my thoughts good luck.RO is a nice option if needed but if too wet don't matter as I use tap with great results. Some one mentioned try a new strain that too..Good Luck.. you"ll get your mojo back..

makeitfunky · Jan 30, 2018

I’m think I’ve got my problem figured out now fingers crossed and it’s could well be the answer to your problem.

It’s overwatering but has such different symptoms it’s looks like the more water the better. Until flower that is when the n tox kicks in and f* it up. When I start multi feeds I get loads of very healthy growth and LOADS of routes which is why it’s so hard to think the multi feeds are the problem.

I’m now feeding 1-2 hours after lights on and then waiting for the feed to be used to a point where the pots are noticeably lighter before feeding again and increasing this as the plants get bigger and use the water quicker. Essentially several wet dry cycles per day rather than constantly wet coco. I’m not letting the pots dry as much as with proper wet dry cycles but aiming for the coco to be somewhere in the middle before feeding again.

I’ll post back and let you know how it goes but I’m hopeful

siftedunity · Jan 30, 2018

Midwest Toker said:
I would look at maybe genetic shift. Just from my experience some plants can go for decades being cloned from clone and others that loss their vigor in a year. Especially if the plants are stressed any.

I doubt all of my cuts would get genetic drift at the same time. plus my vegging plants are perfect. personally think that genetic drift is more likely if you keep old mothers, or like you say, they get stressed.. but mine are not stressed in veg.
so nope not that.

siftedunity · Jan 30, 2018

Midwest Toker said:
Around 1200 ml single daily feedings for 9 lt pots.

same as my old style pretty much.. which was 1000ml, single feedings

siftedunity · Jan 30, 2018

makeitfunky said:
I’m think I’ve got my problem figured out now fingers crossed and it’s could well be the answer to your problem.

It’s overwatering but has such different symptoms it’s looks like the more water the better. Until flower that is when the n tox kicks in and f* it up. When I start multi feeds I get loads of very healthy growth and LOADS of routes which is why it’s so hard to think the multi feeds are the problem.

I’m now feeding 1-2 hours after lights on and then waiting for the feed to be used to a point where the pots are noticeably lighter before feeding again and increasing this as the plants get bigger and use the water quicker. Essentially several wet dry cycles per day rather than constantly wet coco. I’m not letting the pots dry as much as with proper wet dry cycles but aiming for the coco to be somewhere in the middle before feeding again.

I’ll post back and let you know how it goes but I’m hopeful

yup im gonna do the same for the next run.. ive never used wet and dry cycle per say.. but id let the coco get to the point were it very slightly tans on top around the edges of the pot. and the pots are noticeably lighter.

I think the issue is that I don't have enough veg time in the final container. and even though the roots are very well developed, they are not developed enough to cope with multiple feeds. im sure if I could veg them longer under hps and let them get really root bound, id be good to go.

so im guessing that im not gonna be able to multifeed unless I increase veg time.
ive tried to research nitrogen toxicity being caused by overwatering. so found not found anything. but im guessing the excess water is causing a lockout or something which is causing the symptoms of n toxicity.

next run im going to run the left rows on one nute schedule and the right row on something different. both with ro.. and see how that finishes up. I will post up pics at some point.
either way, if it was the water, ive switched to ro anyway so that at least crosses that off the list of unknowns..

Growing in Coco 10 years. Lost my way

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