i don't go to those plays.
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how many generations til a strain becomes yours
- Thread starter yocs
- Start date
B
Bob Green
Pretty sure once any non patented genetic material is released it becomes public domain.
The patents that the big corporations are going after once federal legalization hits are trait based. Cannabanoid ratios, terpenoids, coloration, etc. Its how they bypass having to patent DNA from every cultivar on the planet.
With so many genetics already available that kind of stuff will be very hard to regulate.
The patents that the big corporations are going after once federal legalization hits are trait based. Cannabanoid ratios, terpenoids, coloration, etc. Its how they bypass having to patent DNA from every cultivar on the planet.
With so many genetics already available that kind of stuff will be very hard to regulate.
Kweku Ananse
Member
A template.
I believe the second parent generation/the f1 of that cross could be a "so-n-so's" blueberry. But any inbreeding should keep the same name. But if it's crossed with something else, then the immediate generation. So in my opinion, eight generations for IBL until you get to throw your name up NEXT TO the original.
I believe the second parent generation/the f1 of that cross could be a "so-n-so's" blueberry. But any inbreeding should keep the same name. But if it's crossed with something else, then the immediate generation. So in my opinion, eight generations for IBL until you get to throw your name up NEXT TO the original.
just lie like everyone else does..i few simple crosses and bam a new overhyped strain all yours...yeehaw.....
S
sourpuss
So u got a hate on for dj? Ur still rocking his genetics haha... tbh I got even more respect for dj now. His haters rock his genetics.... lmao...
OneStonedPony
Active member
I think if you work something 3 or 4 generations you can call it your own (work). But I don't think anyone owns a plant, just my 2 cents.
CoCoSativas
Active member
Very strange right? I find it confusing someone is soo happy with the DP version, hates dj blah blah and yet he uses djs genetics as he was the pioneering breeder of BB far as we all know.
I don't think people should be able to tm clones but seed varieties and their packaging is fine. Dj short should be able to tm BB just BB. Everyone after should call it say dutch passion BB or whoever BB.
Strange thread... confusing and all over the place
Is this a serious question? Well Blueberry will be always DJ Short's creation, either if you improve it or not. If you spend a number of generations or years working and improving it, then it may be your own version of the Blueberry from DJ Short but it will never be your own creation and the variety will always be Blueberry (at least until you cross it to something else)! If the cultivar was bred and developed by someone else, then it's simply his creation (he was the breeder right?). Maybe the seeds you purchased will be your property or the plants you grow off them, or whatever cross you made with them, but the strain would always be the creation of the guy who developed it. I think it's common sense, just like with writers, artists, musicians and so on.
If you want to create a plant variety, get a few landraces or heirloom cultivars and breed them until you end with something new and distinctive like DJ Short did in the past. Then you would know all the years, investments and effort that creating a proper new plant cultivar demands. DJ Short wasn't an pollen chucker, he indeed was one of the very few legit cannabis breeders we had in our history. Let's give credit when credit is due. Everyone can cross plants, pollinate clones or reproduce a strain at home for years, but that's far from plant breeding or developing a new cultivar.
Also I find all those ramblings about "no one owns a plant" and all that don't make any sense. Well, of course plant and seeds pass from one hand to another like they have been for centuries, but if someone is breeding a new cultivar with his own hands and after investing years, hardwork and so on... he's the only owner and creator of that strain as he's the plant breeder that created it. Maybe you'll own the seeds if you buy them or you'll be able to do your own pollen chucking if you feel (and it's not controlled like with cannabis), but that's it. Cannabis cultivars didn't appear alone in the wild, they've always been the result of people's work and selection.
Peace.
P.S: Maybe this is not applicable to Cannabis yet but it's definitely a good starting point to understand what's going on with plant breeding and protection out there in the real world (of course this was needed to protect professional plant breeders who invest so much time and resources in developing new varieties, thus the protection his work is necessary to stop other from taking advantage on that, also the fact that is so easy to propagate a plant variety by anyone once it's been created):
Well, DJ Short's plants are definitely ticking all those points to be considered a proper new cannabis variety. Let's have a look now at what's going on with plant varieties out there:
In addition to the protected variety itself, the scope of the breeders right also covers:
(i) varieties which are essentially derived from the protected variety, where the protected variety is not itself an essentially derived variety;
(ii) varieties which are not clearly distinguishable from the protected variety; and
(iii) varieties whose production requires the repeated use of the protected variety.
From: http://www.upov.int/portal/index.html.en
If you want to create a plant variety, get a few landraces or heirloom cultivars and breed them until you end with something new and distinctive like DJ Short did in the past. Then you would know all the years, investments and effort that creating a proper new plant cultivar demands. DJ Short wasn't an pollen chucker, he indeed was one of the very few legit cannabis breeders we had in our history. Let's give credit when credit is due. Everyone can cross plants, pollinate clones or reproduce a strain at home for years, but that's far from plant breeding or developing a new cultivar.
Also I find all those ramblings about "no one owns a plant" and all that don't make any sense. Well, of course plant and seeds pass from one hand to another like they have been for centuries, but if someone is breeding a new cultivar with his own hands and after investing years, hardwork and so on... he's the only owner and creator of that strain as he's the plant breeder that created it. Maybe you'll own the seeds if you buy them or you'll be able to do your own pollen chucking if you feel (and it's not controlled like with cannabis), but that's it. Cannabis cultivars didn't appear alone in the wild, they've always been the result of people's work and selection.
Peace.
P.S: Maybe this is not applicable to Cannabis yet but it's definitely a good starting point to understand what's going on with plant breeding and protection out there in the real world (of course this was needed to protect professional plant breeders who invest so much time and resources in developing new varieties, thus the protection his work is necessary to stop other from taking advantage on that, also the fact that is so easy to propagate a plant variety by anyone once it's been created):
Well, DJ Short's plants are definitely ticking all those points to be considered a proper new cannabis variety. Let's have a look now at what's going on with plant varieties out there:
In addition to the protected variety itself, the scope of the breeders right also covers:
(i) varieties which are essentially derived from the protected variety, where the protected variety is not itself an essentially derived variety;
(ii) varieties which are not clearly distinguishable from the protected variety; and
(iii) varieties whose production requires the repeated use of the protected variety.
From: http://www.upov.int/portal/index.html.en
K
kopite
I'll ask SamS his thoughts on their skunks... what's ya ma doing sniffing the shitter? had her down as kinky but kinell that's even a bit much for me!! she certainly didn't rim me...
and since that post was yours then good! it's something I agree with but in relation to the bolded bit i'd say DP lacked morals I feel with regard to Dj..
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morals in the seed game are like condoms in Florida's porn industry.
thanks for the knowledge. I feel like im starting to get a better grasp on things now. Noone can ever call bb there own being that its a recognizable strain. if any thing Il call it my variety of the particular strain. Maybe this threads question would have been better asked using another strain/ variety / cross as the example.
in all honesty I didn't mean to get people started on dp or DJ. I have great respect for both. I was just asking a genuine question. With all the different strain/crosses out there and new ones popping up every five seconds things can get confusing. Thanks to everyone that has learned me
SpaceBros.
Member
Yeah have to agree with you there but I go even further.
If you wanna rip me off or rob me be a man about it and beat me down or do it at gun point. Don't lie and deceive and steal behind my back like a conniving bitch might do.
I like to know when I'm getting phukked
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SpaceBros.
Member
Yes it's a very serious ethical question. Legally you may be correct but your morals are lacking if this is your belief. DJ Short is and was under no obligation to release his prized Blueberry to the public.
We are children of this earth and should be able to freely use what mother nature has given us. We all stand on the shoulders of the hard-work of past generations and use ideas, inventions etc they have given us. If it wasn't for people like Nikola Telsa freely giving up his patent on the AC motor and Jonas Salk doing similar with his Polio vaccine think about where we might be today. People in general need to work together to work against greed and capitalism to make this a better world for everyone. Allowing forPlant breeder's rights in no way helps this. There are unfortunately too many people and too few resources to allow this. If it keeps on continuing this way we will end with a very rich minority and a very large working poor slave class.
I personally think Blueberry is not sufficiently different (or stable enough) from the plethora of strains already on the market to be considered a cultivar under existing laws. It grows to a height of any other Indica out there, with a similar flowering period, leaf size, branching pattern and same cannabinoid profile as any other strain out there. As I understand it the blue hues and characteristic aroma and terpenes are not always expressed and even JD (DJ's son) says they need to be coaxed out at times.
Furthermore for one to make selections it stands to reason that there must be at least some variation. For variation to exist implies instability. Where instability occurs well we no longer have a cultivar unfortunately. Otherwise all Blueberry would be the same no matter what selections were made or "who's" blueberry it was.
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SpaceBros.
Member
Unfortunately these are ALL subjective criteria. What's new and different to someone maybe be similar and familiar to others. Where subjectivity exist the chances of corruption and bribery greatly increase. This is another problem of plant breeder's rights especially in regards to our beloved cannabis.
SpaceBros.
Member
Trade-marking (TM) is for names only I believe. No one can TM the strain name Blueberry because of the fruit it derives it name from. He'd have to call it "Blueberry Bud" at the very least. You can TM the name Durban Poison because it's unique and original. Breeder's rights deal with plant itself. The issue in question is about the use of the Blueberry strain itself not the naming. I could breed my own (genetically unrelated to the original) cultivar call it Blueberry and in theory would be legally OK in terms of infringing on plant breeder's rights.
Ya'll sound like Monsanto!
Sure, but nature didn't give us Blueberries... maybe thai, afghan and mexican cultivars? Not really, they were also developed by man's selection and work through the years. The only thing that nature gave us was wild or primitive cannabis plants without much cannabinoids or terpenes. It happened the same with corn and Brassica Oleracea, would you eat wild teosinte corn?:
Nature didn't give us brussel sprouts nor broccoli, they were bred by someone from wild mustard plants, without their work we would never have them. Fortunately sice the time that Mendel, de Vries and others discovered how genetics work (and the modern genetic engeneering nowadays), plant breeding progressed so much that now any researcher or plant breeder can develop a plant cultivar within a few years. In the past it was done through decades or maybe even centuries by all the different hands that contributed to it empirically. It was the case of most crops (corn, rice, wheat...).
You are the only one that's lacking morals when you think that all the hardwork of this plant breeders or anyone else should be "donated for a better world". Would you like to work for free and for the sake of it? Would you like others to take profit on your work? Then don't do it, its a matter of respect, something necessary in order to live in a society. I would definitely love to live in a different era, but unfortunately we live nowadays in a capitalistic, money centered and market based one and even if we don't agree, we are pretty fucked up. If I had the opportunity to work in a society where money wasn't needed or ruled everything, I'd definiety love to trade and exchange my work and services for other products or servicies, I'm sure that we would be all happier and society would progress in a whole different manner like that. But nowadays this is utopic and I think this is not the point on this debate, right? Don't be demagogic.
As for the Blueberry being disctinctive enough... well for me the simple fact that DJ Short was one of the very few breeders in our history that created his works from original landrace stock is more than enough and should be taken in account. Genetic background of his strains is definitely distinctive from the rest of the commercial strains (sharing mostly the same genetics) and that's what really matters if we speak of originality in plant breeding. Maybe if DJ wouldn't have been using afghan genes to cut harvest time, improve structure and so on like most breeders did it would be even more original or revolutionary? probably as well but that's not the point either.
But who has done that too apart from DJ and Skunkman anyway? Seattle Greg who created the Northern Lights? Sure the oldschool hippies and California pioneers. Maybe some spanish breeders and a few underground guys out there too? Well that's distinctive enough for me... definitely distinct from all the rest of people who are "creating new" (new? not really) strains by renaming and combining others that already exist within months.
For me it's just the same as remixing or sampling in the music industry. That's cool but after all, they are just bringing back sounds from the past (that were very successful already!) and giving them a tiny twist (tiny enogh so it's not considered a rip-off by the law), but no way they are creating or composing brand new stuff from zero. Either they don't have the skills/talent for that or they aren't really willing to work that hard and long in order to do it, or they are lazy because they are just looking for quick buck and not for originality, creativity and self expression. That's what I consider proper breeding anyway.
Vibes.
P.D: by the way, everyone speaks about morality within the cannabis industry but those who buy seeds have the same responsability or even more than those who rip the people off! if you don't like something, just don't support it or contribute. Consumers rule the market, don't forget about that.
SpaceBros.
Member
Sure, but nature didn't give us Blueberries... maybe thai, afghan and mexican cultivars? Not really, they were also developed by man's selection through the years. The only thing that nature gave us was wild or primitive cannabis plants without much cannabinoids or terpenes. It happened the same with corn and Brassica Oleracea:
The same thing could work if we put Skunk#1, Haze, Northern Lights, Blueberry and so on at the bottom. Nature didn't give us brussel sprouts nor broccoli, they were bred by someone. Fortunately sice the time that Mendel, de Vries and others discovered how genetics work (and the modern genetic engeneering nowadays), plant breeding progressed so much that now any researcher or plant breeder can develop a plant cultivar within a few years. In the past it was done through decades or maybe even centuries by all the different hands that contributed to it empirically. It was the case of most crops (corn, rice, wheat...).
You are the only one that's lacking morals when you think that all the hardwork of this plant breeders or anyone else should be "donated for a better world". Would you like to work for free and for the sake of it? I would definitely love to live in a different society, but unfortunately we live nowadays in a capitalistic and market based one and even if we don't agree, we are fucked up. If I had the opportunity to work in a society where money wasn't needed or ruled everything, I'd definiety love to trade and exchange my work for other products or servicies, I'm sure that we would be all happier and society would progress in a different manner. But I think this is not the point on this debate, right? That's not the topic now, don't be demagogic.
As for the Blueberry being disctinctive enough... well for me the simple fact that DJ Short was one of the very few breeders in our history that created his works from original landrace stock is more than enoughand should be taken in account. Genetic background of his strains is definitely distinctive from the rest of the commercial strains (sharing mostly the same genetics) and that's what really matters if we speak of originality in plant breeding. Maybe if DJ wouldn't have been using afghan genes like most breeders did it would be even more original or revolutionary? probably as well.
But who has done that too apart from DJ and Skunkman anyway? The oldschool hippy pioneers? Maybe some spanish breeders and a few underground guys out there too? Well that's distinctive enough for me... definitely distinct from all the rest of people who are creating (new? not really) strains from others that already exist.
For me it's just the same as remixing or sampling in the music industry. That's cool but after all, they are just bringing back sounds from the past (that were very successful already!) and giving them a tiny twist, but no way they are creating or composing brand new stuff from zero. Either they don't have the skills/talent for that or they aren't really willing to work that hard and long in order to do it, or they are lazy because they are just looking for quick buck and not for originality and creativity. That's what I consider proper breeding anyway.
Vibes.
OK point taken on morality, breeder's rights etc It's off topic and I won't bring it up again.
But DJ's Blueberry can in no way be a botanically accepted cultivar. It simply doesn't meet the criteria you yourself posted. He doesn't really introduce any new land-races that weren't already available on the market. Thai was in Haze, Oaxacan possibly in haze or skunk, Afghan - everywhere. Sure he reshuffled the genetics in different ways and refreshed the gene pool (thank-you DJ) but so did White Widow (even more so). Even if he did use fresh genetics that doesn't automatically make in a new cultivar.
I feel I clearly stated why Blueberry failed to meet the requirements of a cultivar and you failed to address those points. Just because you feel it's fresh enough doesn't make it so.
I think people need to keep their love for DJ out of this thread. I've never heard of DJ giving any seeds or strains away for free. Never heard of him doing any strain hunting of his own. Never heard of him doing any work to preserve land-race cannabis and make it freely available to others (or even at a fair price) and he charges a ridiculous amount for his seeds. Maybe he's a great guy once you meet him but I haven't had the chance.
Ace, CBG, Reeferman, Snowhigh, The real seed co, Mandala and many more (yes even Dutch Passion) have done much for the Canna community IMO than DJ ever has.
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Genghis Kush
Active member
“It is nobler to declare oneself wrong than to insist on being right --especially when one is right.”
― Friedrich Nietzsche
― Friedrich Nietzsche
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