Mosaic virus and Cannabis, Chem D etc...

VerdantGreen · Feb 4, 2011

Hi all, there is a thread about symptoms etc in the infirmary but i would say many of the pics or reported cases in there may be some other plant problem. i have been trying to look into this for a while now since being lucky enough to acquire the Chem D clone which is supposed to have this virus. the main things i have found out are pretty negative - you cant cure it, it can be passed on through insect vectors and seeds made from infected parents.
the only leads i found are that seeds can possibly be heat treated to kill the virus, and that maybe salicylic acid could be a way to kill the virus in live plants, maybe.
so i thought i would start a thread here in the hope that someone may know some facts about this...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobacco_mosaic_virus

some questions i have are....

1. has this virus actually been confirmed in Chem D? to my eye it could be a genetic trait, like a variegation. i havent seen any lack of vigor in the plant but apparently it slows down rooting (i'll report back about that

)

2. are there any proven or possible ways of curing it - either in seed stock or live plants?

3. how much should we be concerned about it/ its spread and it's perpetuation through breeding.

thanks :tiphat:

VG

TacomaComa · Feb 4, 2011

im about to aquire the D cut and would like to know the answer to these same questions.

Sam the Caveman · Feb 4, 2011

I had several different strains that had potato leaf crinkle, which is much more deliblitating than TMV and is also a virus. Salicylic acid worked wonders, it was amazing how the plants recovered and they are near chop right now with seemingly no ill effect. Nice yields and great looking plants. I will say that all the infected leaves eventually died, so if you see a tmv leaf, spray SA and remove the effected leaves. I have seen some leaves that were effected recover from tmv looking leaves but they never looked normal, slight contorted but seemingly functional.

I have a link in my sig about using sa.

!!! · Feb 4, 2011

No way to cure the plant of the virus, but if you want to save the genetics, you can take a tiny snip of the very top of the new growth of the plant and cultivate it in vitro (cell culture.)

The idea behind this is that the virus propagates slower than the plant grows, so very new growth should be virus free.

I personally have an issue that is yet undiagnosed. I have since given up on it just because it doesn't seem to affect vigor too much. Here are shots of my leaves in veg:

Notice the bite marks/rips on the leaves. There are no insects except some gnats, no leaf minors, and no physical damage being done to the leaves.

They turn out very normal dark and thick in flowering:

but if you see the top of the plants, some of the leaves bleach. Maybe light bleaching but they are streaks of yellow. This is a symptom of the virus but in my case it's likely something else. I'll try to get a picture next time I'm in the garden.

IF you have it, you have it forever until you eradicate it. This means tossing pretty much everything in the garden, every clone and seed from infected plants, sterilizing the equipment, probably best to toss out nutes and additives also unless you can be sure they're clean. Avoid tobacco use in the garden, use sanitizer before/after work, don't let strangers come touch your plants and keep anything used in outdoor gardening away from the grow.

Chem D probably just has variegation. If it had the virus, it would spread to every other plant in the grow in a shared res system or if fungus gnats and other vectors are present. Since I see pics of people with chem D next to healthy plants, it's probably not a big deal.

OsWiZzLe · Feb 4, 2011

the Plant can be cured.....i dont know how it works....but i have taken many many many ChemD clones and I have seen it not show up in cuttings ...dont know who this happens...but 100% for a fact i have seen it go away

northstate · Feb 11, 2011

Hello to VG and good questions. The Chem, OGK and many Diesel genes we have run appear to have the TMV?/ varigated leaves when they are young and seem to grow right through it with no ill affects. It will show from time to time throughout the cycle but very tiny areas on fans but I think it could be genes as opposed to a virus...Good food for thought it does remind me of some of DJ's blue with its light look and such......Cheers, NS

VerdantGreen · Feb 12, 2011

thanks for posting northstate.

i was looking at the chem 101 thread and many of the pics of chem D in the thread dont appear to have the leaf colour/virus 'trait' showing at all. the thread was from '07 and the pics maybe older than that...
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=60048

i might have a mess about with some aspirin/salicylic acid on a rooted cut and see if it does anything
does anyone know how many aspirin to how much water for a good strong dose?? (that wont kill the plant??_)

VG

spurr · Feb 13, 2011

Sam the Caveman said:
I had several different strains that had potato leaf crinkle, which is much more deliblitating than TMV and is also a virus. Salicylic acid worked wonders
I have a link in my sig about using sa.

That is what I was about to write, SA has been found to inhibit Mosaic virus. I am not sure of its efficacy once the plant has MV, though.

spurr · Feb 13, 2011

VerdantGreen said:
thanks for posting northstate.

i might have a mess about with some aspirin/salicylic acid on a rooted cut and see if it does anything
does anyone know how many aspirin to how much water for a good strong dose?? (that wont kill the plant??_)

VG

You can use ~100 ppm SA, well, that is the dosage commonly most used for SA to induce SAR. I have at lest one study looking at SA effects upon Mosaic virius IIRC; I can check it out and see what application rate the researchers used. FWIW, aspirin does not contain SA, only its acetate: "acetylsalicylic acid". That said, ASA has been found to effect plants in the same manner as SA in terms of SAR; I am not sure if the analog also hinders MV like SA.

:tiphat:

spurr · Feb 13, 2011

@ VG,

Here are some studies you may want to check out, and one even using aspirin (acetylsalicylic acid, i.e., salicylic acid acetate). It appears SA and ASA can hinder MV (TMV and CMV) even after infection. Something worthwhile to point out is an excerpt from a study:

"Salicylic Acid-Induced Resistance to Cucumber mosaic virus in Squash and Arabidopsis thaliana: Contrasting Mechanisms of Induction and Antiviral Action"
Carl N. Mayers, Kian-Chung Lee, Catherine A. Moore, Sek-Man Wong and John P. Carr
MPMI Vol. 18, No. 5, 2005, pp. 428–434
(full text) http://apsjournals.apsnet.org/doi/pdf/10.1094/MPMI-18-0428

The results show that different host species may use significantly different approaches to resist infection by the same virus. These findings also imply that caution is required when attempting to apply findings on plant–virus interactions from model systems to a wider range of host species.

2. "Salicylic Acid Has Cell-Specific Effects on Tobacco mosaic virus Replication and Cell-to-Cell Movement"
Alex M. Murphy and John P. Carr
Plant Physiol, February 2002, Vol. 128, pp. 552-563
(full text) http://www.plantphysiol.org/cgi/content/abstract/128/2/552

Therefore, it appears that SA has distinct cell type-specific effects on virus replication and movement in the mesophyll and epidermal cell layers, respectively. Thus, SA can have fundamentally different effects on the same pathogen in different cell types.

3. "Acetylsalicylic acid (aspirin) induces resistance to tobacco mosaic virus in tobacco"
R. F. White
Virology Volume 99, Issue 2, December 1979, Pages 410-412
(abstract only for now; I can get full text later today) http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...e52665f1021b37aff6dd5a1bc0c29fc7&searchtype=a

4. "Salicylic Acid Interferes with Tobacco Mosaic Virus Replication via a Novel Salicylhydroxamic Acid-Sensitive Mechanism"
S. Chivasa, A. M. Murphy, M. Naylor and J. P. Carr
THE PLANT CELL, Vol 9, Issue 4 547-557 (1997)
(full text) http://www.plantcell.org/cgi/content/abstract/9/4/547

spurr · Feb 13, 2011

@ VG,

i might have a mess about with some aspirin/salicylic acid on a rooted cut and see if it does anything
does anyone know how many aspirin to how much water for a good strong dose?? (that wont kill the plant??_)

VG

In most studies it appears 1 mM of SA was used to treat MV (both TMV and CMV), so that may be a good concentration for you to test either by leaf or root application (root application tends to have a longer lasting effects from PGRs).

Once I get the full text of the ASA paper I will see what concentration was used, but for now I calculated the ppm of 1 mM of ASA (assuming it's 100% pure). Considering ASA is an SA acetate you could try using the same concentration of ASA, i.e., 1 mM.

ASA molecular formula is C9H8O4 and the molecular weight is 180.1583 g/mol. 1 mM is 10^-3 M, i.e., 0.001 mol/L, thus the ppm (mg/L) of 1 mM ASA (assuming it's 100% pure) is:

(0.001 mol/L)180.1583 g/mol = (0.1801583 g/L)1,000 = 180.1583 mg/L = ~180.2 ppm

The easiest way to get ~180 ppm is by achieving 162.5 ppm with 325 mg aspirin (i.e., 325 mg ASA) by adding one 325 mg pill to two liters of water, or half a 325 mg aspirin to one liter of water.

:tiphat:

P.S. if anyone sees errors in my math or understanding please let me/us know.

VerdantGreen · Feb 13, 2011

thanks spurr, from my reading aspirin is very nearly as effective as SA in inducing SAR

cheers for all the links

VG

accessndx · Feb 13, 2011

Got the cut myself. Been going back and forth debating if it has the TMV or not. Sometimes it sounds like an urban legend. The leaves always seem to exhibit that strange speckling and spotting. I've noticed healthy doses of Cal/Mag prior to and throughout flowering seems to greatly diminish the appearance, but not completely ablate it.
All I can say is that the plant is healthy as F.U.C.K. disregardless......and the end results are stellar. It's just not my most photogenic gal.
I did read that the viral vector can be transmitted via a shared reservoir.....to date I haven't seen any indication of spread that way. My other strains do not exhibit any of these traits and share a common reservoir (ebb & flow).

I don't want to discourage people from believing they may in fact have the TMV or any problem for that matter.....
My commentary is more to say that it doesn't appear to really create any adverse impact overall on the growth and development of that particular plant......and it seems to be affected by adding things to your feeding regimen in positive ways.

The TMV if it is present may create nutritive pressure one way or another thereby requiring that strain to have more (in this case Ca/Mg) nutrient demand.

My personal opinion is that it (or at least mine) doesn't have the viri. I think she's just a high maintenance chick....and therefore takes a bit more tweaking. She's worth it FTR.

funkfingers · Feb 13, 2011

So in theory if this was TMV and not variegation, the virus would be passed by simply not cleaning your scissors between taking clones?? If this is the case would not many more have TMV in more plants than just the chems, kushes, and diesels..??

I personally am on the side that ,believe it to be variegation ( possibly a genetic thing), as I have seen the supposed "TMV" leaves appear on seedlings, not on all of them mind you just certain phenotypes..Most of those seedlings that show variegation either being a hybrid of the chem d, og kush, or the paki's and affy's ( also fwiw the pakis and affys are cal mag whores just like the d) ..This is what leans me towards believing it is a genetic trait, that and what others have pointed out. Would it be not next to impossible to contain the virus if running plants in the same hydro table, using the same scissors ect ect..

VerdantGreen · Feb 13, 2011

hey guys thanks for the contribution - i have to say that you may be right, and if it wasnt for all ive read about tmv, i would (and still do) suspect that it is a genetic trait. i have also heard many people say it hasnt spread either - although it clearly passes on to some offspring (just as a genetic trait would)

it also doesnt look much like pics of MV ive seen in other cannabis plants, where the mosaic effect is quite different.

i agree it doesnt seem to slow down the cut - it grows well with reasonable vigor.

there is a story that the man chemdog had it tested in a lab and it came out positive for the virus but im not so sure if thats gospel or not - anyone???

also as i mentioned above, some pics of the D in the chem 101 thread seem to not show it at all in 2007...

N. Accumbens · Feb 13, 2011

it can be passed on through insect vectors and seeds made from infected parents.

...which always made me suspicious when i had i noticed the whole garden became sick from a quick mist plant, nothing had entered or left the grow room except myself or the seeds, well clones may have left but they never entered, i accepted genetics not from other people for this very reason...

So when i found out that some viruses come from seed, I cursed myself for the quick mists... for looking at what happened to rez a few years ago... when he was making those soil bed grows, and well I know well there are many forms of variegation, but the type of variegation which spreads across my garden and shatters my actually variegated cocoa kushes... well no thank you, as the parts of the plants without chlorophyll are the first to be affected and lines like bb can not stand any infections such as those carried by certain seed breeders (LOL- i cant believe i just said that... ROAR!)

Fortunately my problem was found not to be a case of tmv but powdery mildew had caught itself on the quick mist genes, and travelled across the garden through along the ventilation path hitting the cks without remorse, but as i did research on what the problem could be... I realized how important proper breeding and storage methods are critical to long term survival of some of finer psychotropic meds in our gardens.

PEACE

K

vaped · Feb 13, 2011

If chem d has the mosaic virus i think it just a chain of chem d's that came out of someones grow room. Its about a 50 50 split some people have it with the virus some people dont. My cut of chem d never shows any ill effects of a virus. Maybey im wrong but I think more people on the west coast have cuts with the virus?

VerdantGreen · Feb 13, 2011

here is what we are talking about in chem D. the leaf discoloration
in a young plant

same plant in early flower - the discoloration is less pronounced after fast growth

vaped · Feb 13, 2011

yep I have never seen that with her. I hear alot about it and now that Ive seen the pic im pretty sure i dont have it. Does the chem d with tmv still produce nice?

VerdantGreen · Feb 13, 2011

hey vaped as has been discussed above - it still grows well. this is my first run since i was lucky enough to get the cut, but apparantly a good yielder too.

VG

Mosaic virus and Cannabis, Chem D etc...

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