A Complete Guide to Topping, Training and Pruning

Kodiak said:

... Btw, I was recently told that ionic silver works better than colloidal silver because the silver particles are smaller, which means that they are absorbed more easily and probably cause less tissue damage to the plant, while still producing the same result. ...

Click to expand...

Hi Kodiak, when you do oppose ionic silver to colloidal, do you mean STS solution?
I suppose the term "ionic 50ppm" on your vial is a commercial label text means "colloidal centrifuge filtered silver" ,
is it opalescent?
is the laser beam visible?
OR was it just a play of words?

jump117 said:

Let's make it clear.

Active elements are ions Ag+. We want them.

They may be achieved by dissolving STS, and we have solution that consists of ions. Laser beam is invisible in solution.

Another way is electrolysis, and we have both ions and metal particles floating in the water. It is colloidal solution.

These particles are much bigger than ions, they make laser beam visible.

And they are useless and harmful to our purpose because ions of Ag+ stick to metal and become inactive.

Click to expand...

What do you think about "Rodelization" (-Soma) single bananas on overripe buds, is it a sign of female instability?

Hey Jump

I'm no expert when it comes to silver water. I just tried a laser pointer on the solution and the beam is visible, so I guess it's colloidal. It says Ionic Silver 50ppm on the bottle and Colloidal Silver right underneath. Somewhat confusing, I'm still not sure if it's the right stuff.

I would not go as far as calling a few nanners very late in flowering instability, especially if they only show up when the plant is way past the peak of thc production. On the other hand I am not after parents for feminized crosses, so I would rather see that the female shows no signs of hermaphroditism at all.

I'm sure that many females (but not all) that are generally considered stable might pop a few nanners if they are flowered for an unusually long time (Rhodelization). I should have added that most likely, all females can actually revert sex if pushed far enough. Some males too.

I just like to keep things simple. Stress-test the plants for hermie tendencies and pull all plants that show any signs of it, even if it's just a single nanner.

Still, the thing that matters is stability under stress. The more the female can handle without going hermie, the better. This applies for both normal breeding and when you are making feminized seeds.

Thankyou kodiak mate, I get everything that youve said. I understand the plants a little better now. I'd never grown it indoors before I set up my grow room last year, so I never bothered learning anything before about it. Getting pretty into it now though, and I'm experimenting with LST'ing.

Here is a thread of PhenoMenal's about colloidal/ionic silver that I found interesting and made me buy a troy ounce of silver and distill some water to give it a try.
http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=60610

999 silver + 9v battery/low voltage adapter and wires, + a jar and distilled water.
Very simple to make, and judging by the growers replying it seems to work well (if followed strictly in the making of it).

Before I bought the silver, I tried making some from an old broken 925 silver ring cut into two pieces with plain tap water, and it doesnt seem to have worked although colloidal cocktail was produced lol. Still waiting to see any sign of male flowers 5 weeks later. Worth trying though just for something to amuse me ( :

Im now making some with distilled water and 999 silver, and from reading that thread this time its going to work. Im growing from seed 2 DP Blueberry, 2 AMS Cheese and some old sensi seeds Superskunk that I've had for about 5 years if they are still viable. So maybe I'll have something good to work with.

Hey Kodiak,
sorry for I had no time to reply soon enough, sure I do remember as we met in that thread and I am pleased to meet You again!
Thank you for the calm comments on late bananas, I observed them before and was sad, never again from now on.

The label "ionic/colloidal/50ppm/keep in dark place at room temp" is OK but what is inside a vial, it depends on honesty of a manufacuter.
I had the failed experience with pharmacy CS as also other people had the same. Since it takes a long time to test, the failure is very disappointing.

I'm not an expert on DIY CS, it takes my interest for the recent time and I got 2cc+ of fem pollen at first attempt,
nevertheless some questions are still unclosed and I'm currently in a study and discussion on it, you welcome to participate.

terry the trich said:

.. 999 silver + 9v battery/low voltage adapter and wires, + a jar and distilled water. ..

Click to expand...

Hey terry the trich,
TDS meter and a paper coffee filters will be helpful also.

Thanks, that's good to know. Cool thread and nice work Glad to see that you put so much time and effort into perfecting the process. I guess you have to make it yourself if you want to be sure that it works. Good thing that there are already DIY threads covering this topic on the forum.

I just think that feminized genetics are sort of a dead end from a breeding perspective but then again they are mainly designed for indoor sensimillia cropping, where space is an issue and males are unwanted.

Some are more stable than others (even more stable than regular females) but it's still best to keep a close eye on them.

Key Kodiak,

Fantasic thread man! so so helpfull!
I've been trying a new growing method after pretty average yield last grow using the scrog technique, I came to the conclusion that I had tied it down too hard without giving it enough time to grow the "frame" creating a dense but weak canopy. This time Im using the LST technique and have cut the number of plants from 9 to 4, Growing bigger plants in bigger pots ...well thats the theory. I'm in a 4ftX4ft grow tent using a 600W Hps light.

Do you think from looking at the photo's I should thin out the canopy, they all seem to be growing in uniform and don't seem to be too stretchy.I'm hoping to yield 10-12 oz.

Hey dobo, very nice plants you have there. Thick stems 4 plants with LST seems to be the right number for your grow room, judging by the pictures.

I would not remove anything at this point. It might be better to wait for the buds to to appear.

You'll have a better idea of what you should (or should not) do then.

Don't remove any leafs if it looks like the plants are using them. As you know, plants take shape from the the light that is available to them, so they have tried their best to make the most out of their location. Although it cannot be seen with the naked eye, some of the light actually passes through the leafs and reaches the lower branches as well.

Once the plants start flowering, they will relocate some of the energy upwards but you can also gradually remove some of the lower growth in order to push more energy into the topmost buds, if that is needed. Remove a little bit of growth at the time and work your way up. You'll have to find the balance between removing too much and too little, I guess you could call it the energy efficient eqilibrium.

As you probably noticed, the larger pot size was the key for getting the most out of the 4 plants that you have. Since they have bigger roots, they can also supply a greater number of leafs and buds with energy.

I would wait and see how it goes. The energy sinks are easier to spot when you have bud as reference.

Thanks Kodiak, the plants are in 33 litre pot's so could grow some big bushes in them but i'm limited with height, think i'll flip them these weekend.

I'm sure that you will get some real monster crops since the plants are growing in such large pots.

It's a lot easier to work with limited height than with limited space. Most plants can be trained to branch out horizontally while staying relatively low in height. Personally, I prefer a combination of topping and LST'ing.

Longer vegging times and extensive training usually means that you will get the most out of the plant. Mainly because the plant will be highly productive, thanks to well established roots.

Watch out for the stretch when you flip the switch. Continue the training throughout flowering, if needed.

Best of Luck

Thanks Kodiak, I flipped them yesterday, from previous experience with this strain they don't seem to stretch too much but i've never vegged them for so long. Height is a concern but i'll try to control them with lst + topping. What stage are you able to top a plant? surely the further it goes into the flower cycle the more stress it would put on the plant, increasing a risk of hermies?

Sure, no problem.

I think that vegging the plant longer might also reduce the stretch somewhat because it all boils down to the amount of light that the plants receives each day. If they have more "solar panels" and a greater capacity for photosynthesis when they go into flowering, there is also less reason to stretch. Especially when they are in the shape of a bush, more tops means a lesser overall stretch. It all has to do with the energy need of the plant and how it is spread out. I guess the energy need can be split into two groups. The upkeep of old growth and the formation of new growth. How exactly the plant prioritizes can be difficult to determine but aiding it in finding a working balance between the two is what we are after. It's however a two-way street as more growth means more available energy but also higher maintenance, all at the same time. Go by what the plants tell you.

If you have to tie down the branches during flowering because they are stretching too much, then that is what you have to do.

Sometimes plants seem a bit overzealous and that is why you have to help them decide what to concentrate on. Plants often try to cover all grounds and the energy need becomes spread out so thin that it becomes difficult for the plant to supply enough energy to where it is needed the most. This can slow down flowering. You can help it concentrate the energy in the right places by removing growth that seems to use up more juice than it is worth. Some examples are popcorn buds on the lower branches and any branches with long internodes (usually lower ones trying to catch up). Building stem might be good for commercial hemp but not so much for recreational drug strains. There is really no point in waiting for the small popcorn buds to grow thicker and mature, because that basically never happens. The lower buds grow very slowly, even when the lower half of the plant is allowed to continue flowering after the top half has been harvested. I have found that it is best to remove them as soon as possible so that as little energy as possible is wasted on anything else than primo bud, which is located further up the line. Some use the lower buds for making seeds.

If you look closely at the plants, you can also spot how deep into the canopy your light penetrates. Anything below that line is basically wasting energy but it is still best to proceed slowly as nothing is set in stone. The plant releases a certain chemical (jasmonic acid) when it feels that it is being attacked. This means that the plant starts upping its defense and that can cause the rest of the functions to crawl to a halt. The more growth that you remove at one time, the more of this chemical is released. You can however remove quite a bit of growth from the plant without causing any problems, as long as you don't remove it all at once.

You can basically top a plant as soon as it is ready for it. I usually wait until I see secondary growth at the lower nodes. That way you will know for sure that topping the plant won't cause any problems. If you get lucky and manage to FIM top your plants, you will end up with 4 tops that can then be tied down. This is the starting point for the Low Stress Training. That is enough most of the time. Nevertheless, a single plant can be trained to fill the same space as four, it just takes longer and requires a large pot. How many plants and what style of growing you should use is mostly up to what sort of grow room you have and what kind of plants you are growing.

Root Mass = Plant Mass (that's good to keep in mind because a plant cannot grow larger than what its roots allow for. Root space is one of the limiting factors when it comes to indoor growing so a bigger pot is always better. Many plants will actually start flowering when they become root bound.)

You can top some plants in early- and even mid-flowering but most of the time it's not a good idea. The trick is to plan ahead. Decide how you will grow the plants when they are still seedlings. You cannot know for how long exactly you will have to veg the plants, unless you are growing a clone that you are already familiar with. I find that it's best to forget about flowering times and stick to what you can see. Another week can never hurt.

I don't think that topping a plant causes it much stress, at least not so much that it would revert sex. Sure, topping a plant will put it under more stress than LST'ing but I doubt that the plant perceives it as a major threat. They should be pretty used to it by now. I believe that the reason for apical dominance and the triangular shape of the untopped plant, is that it is the most energy efficient shape for plants that are part of a densely packed community. It's all about maximizing the surface area that is capable of photosynthesis.

When plants are grown further apart, they receive more light and can grow larger and take on new forms in order to fully utilize the available energy.

All plants are different and it is therefore best to come up with slightly different strategies for each one.

Excellent post, thank you sir! I'll see how they strech in first few weeks, I agree with you about popcorn bud, it never gets the density that the upper buds have. I think the reason they never get dense is because the "engine" has been removed, the engine being all the upper fan leaves that receive the most sunlight which in turn generates more energy for the plants.

Great point about apical dominance, the cannabis plant in the wild would have to grow tall to compete for light in it's natural enviroment, especially in a tropical area where everything florishes! I guess if they were an perennial plant they would look similar to say a pine tree, lower branches weak with the top half florishing in a very competitive enviroment.

The link in my signature is another LST technique.

Great tutorial thread!

my strain from spain

my strain from spain

hi kodiak ,
a nice explanation once again !
and
leave some of my flowers on day 42 of flowering
black jacks from sweet seeds and a special kush#1 from Royal queen seeds
cheers in advance for let me post here and good grows everyone
used a 125w blue and now a red same watts
thank's again

Hi ERVABUE

The pictures are a bit fuzzy but the plants look nice and healthy.

Best of luck with your grow


Good one Daffy Your LST technique is simple yet effective.

Great thread Kodiak. Learned alot of good stuff. Got my first grow going and topped 3 out of 4 about 4 days ago. Got one good top, one FIM and one FUR (Fucked up Royally). Should top after a few beers. . Looks like no harm no foul, but the FUR is going to look lopsided.

Thanks

I'm sure that it will all work out as long as you removed enough of the main shoot to cancel out the apical dominance. FIM topping doesn't work every time but it's fun when it does.

You could also combine topping with some LST'ing for even better results.

yes fortunately they are healty...

yes fortunately they are healty...

this is my first grow and started today a thread at portuguese sub-forum and take the chance from here for envite everyone to visit it-they are my black jacks from sweet seeds since the start...will try to catch up soon,as they finishing the week 6 of flowering at 50 days...
they are quite fortunate because always been on my bedside and i do smoke and even using a fan and opening the window sometimes think that they very lucky for the health they have!!

cheers

Healthy plants are always a blessing.

Sounds like a good plant. I guess you can't go wrong with a mix of Black Domina and Jack Herer. Looks like you have an indica leaning pheno. Gotta love that broad leaf. Very nice

Best of luck with your first grow.