Let's talk about salt buildup.

I've experienced salt buildup constantly throughout my first grow, and I'm trying to better learn its causes for the next run. From researching here on the forums and across the internet in general, most people seem to say it's caused by

- Coco drying out
- High EC
- Over-watering
- Low quality, salty coco (not as common now a days)


Using canna coco, so it's not the low quality issue.

Dry coco is the most dangerous of the bunch imo, yet is the easiest to spot and easiest to fix. Had that happen a few times, and the results were immediate and severe. Will be more on top of my watering times on the second run for sure.

High EC confuses me. What if the plants don't show burnt tips? Is it possible that doses of excess salt low enough not to irritate the plant accumulate over long periods of time with slightly too high of EC? Doesn't jive with my thinking, though, because the roots drink up the water and all the salts therein. They don't say no to salts, else we wouldn't get nute burn right?

It would make more sense that over-watering would be the culprit, as the roots can't drink the water fast enough, and thus the coco grabs hold of the salts. So over-watering is possible. Let me explain my watering habits and you tell me.

I essentially have extremely root bound monsters in 5 gallon pots with roots carpeting all surfaces, even the top of the coco. I water 8 times a day, 3 of which occur at night (I noticed the coco would be slightly dry each morning if left without water all night). Each watering puts them at the brink of runoff, but no runoff. Coco never has a chance to dry out. Is this overwatering?

If you're getting salt build up that bad then you need to start watering 'til run off. If you use a salt based fert then some salt build up is inevitable, especially on the rim/sides of the pot. But because you're watering so frequently and not washing away any of the build up...
If your plants are 100% healthy and thriving then No, you're not over watering. Some people feed more often than that believe it or not.

Imo you answered your own question with water to almost runoff but without runoff, you need runoff at least once a day. Last water cycle of the day get 10-20 % runoff, and to be honest you shouldn't have to feed at lights out.

Also read some of dansbuds post he hasn't had problem out of canna bagged coco for years until last years and bam all kinda problems, so always check and recheck.
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=7876033&postcount=3948

bigdad41296 said:

Also read some of dansbuds post he hasn't had problem out of canna bagged coco for years until last years and bam all kinda problems, so always check and recheck.
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=7876033&postcount=3948

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Dansbuds is who I consider an expert on coco. I have had horrible salt buildup. Feeding 600 ppm and 6 ph, and some plants had 2500 ppm and 4.7 ph runoff. He automated feeding multiple times a day, with almost no runoff.

I have found watering too much during veg I get almost no root system. I like to let the plants get light before watering in veg.

5 years in coco and what I see is salt buildup isn't a negative except for people who want to make it one. Keep your coco wet and at the right ph and you won't have major problems. No need for runoff until your flush period in the last couple weeks. Keep your ec low, especially when doing multiple watering and always double check ph. Salt buildup is something you don't need to worry about if you keep it wet, right ph and lower ec.

stoned40yrs said:

5 years in coco and what I see is salt buildup isn't a negative except for people who want to make it one. Keep your coco wet and at the right ph and you won't have major problems. No need for runoff until your flush period in the last couple weeks. Keep your ec low, especially when doing multiple watering and always double check ph. Salt buildup is something you don't need to worry about if you keep it wet, right ph and lower ec.

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Excellent post there I was typing almost the same thing n erased it there is nothing else left to say on the subject....
Lots of ppl got fuct with shitty batches of coco on both east n west coasts... I like atami bcuzz coco for the win... cleanest coco out there,

I pereonally water to run off, exactly how every brand of coco recommends. Been doing it that way for over 10 years now. However, our plants life span isn't that long so you CAN water to no run off, but you WILL get salt build up, period.
Loc Dog, if you're not getting good root growth then it's because of too much wet coco and not enoug roots. After 30 days in veg my plants would be root bound if they were in soil, thats how rooted they should be before doing multiple feedings. And the only way to get roots to grow like that is to let the coco dry out a bit in between waterings. Easy.
Anybody interested then take a look in my album at plants that get 2 waterings per day til run off. Proof is in the pudding...
The OP is obviously not getting salt build up from the coco not being wet enough...

There is an excellent write up on Canna Nutes where the author states he uses 200 ppm for veg and 400 ppm for flower. He does stress that if you reduce the Canna nutes you have to add back the Cal/Mag, he suggest Cal/Magic from GH, I have been using it for years, love it.

Here is his thoughts on this.
"This is based on slightly rough math but is very close to correct......in my experience...

3.0 ml/gal = 0.4 ec = 200 ppm with around 44 ppm of calcium0
4.5 ml/gal = 0.6 ec = 300 ppm with around 66 ppm of calcium
6.2 ml/gal = 0.8 ec = 400 ppm with around 88 ppm of calcium
7.7 ml/gal = 1.0 ec = 500 ppm with around 112 ppm of calcium
9.2 ml/gal = 1.2 ec = 600 ppm with around 135 ppm of calcium

you need around 150 ppm of calcium alone.....so even if when I'm at 200 ppm if I only added 100 ppm of calimagic, only 75 is calcium so I would still be short......
at week 4 I am using around 1ml/gal. Which comes out to around 70-80 ppm. I'll start decreasing it at the end of wk 5 beginning of week 6.

This Calcium information is purely based on a Canna schedule, using calimagic. As I stated, once you hit around 700 ppm you no longer need calmag additives."

I use his guidelines but also look at CANNA Grow Guide personalized grow schedule for the other supplements and adjust my mix.
For example:
I adjust my EC of the RO (2 ppm) to 0.24 (approx) before I add my base nutes, I use Cal/Magic to bring the numbers up. Again this is based on a 70 to 80 ppm per ml. So it takes me approx 5 ml/4 gallons of RO.
Then add the base nutes, Early flower - 400 ppm, increase it to 600 ppm at mid grow then began lowering it back to 400 at around 6 to 7 weeks then begin lowering it to around 200 ppm prior to flush. If backing off the Base Nutes you have to add back the Cal/Mag.
The remainder of the Canna product I use are Cannazym @ 8 ml/gal, Boost @ 8 to 10 ml/gal, drip clean @.4 ml/gal. I don't use Rhizotonic, I use the GH Rhizo product as I hand water it in weekly and not put it in the rez, spoils. I also replace Canna P&K with GH Liquid KoolBloom. I do add Epsom if I see any symptoms of Mag deficiency.
I am happy with the results so far. I am going to back off A&B a bit more next grow as during a majority of the grow the plants were too dark green. Too much N.

And water to runoff if you are have build up problem.

Hope this is relevant!

GR

Agree with the others about runoff. Without runoff you will get rising concentrations of salts in the medium. There's no way around that. I always water to slight runoff.

Asslover said:

If you're getting salt build up that bad then you need to start watering 'til run off.

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bigdad41296 said:

Imo you answered your own question with water to almost runoff but without runoff, you need runoff at least once a day.

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Rollout said:

Agree with the others about runoff.

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Thanks guys. I'll be watering to runoff from now on and note any differences.

bigdad41296 said:

Also read some of dansbuds post he hasn't had problem out of canna bagged coco for years until last years and bam all kinda problems, so always check and recheck.
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=7876033&postcount=3948

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Yeah I use the bricks, which he says are fine in that post.

stoned40yrs said:

No need for runoff until your flush period in the last couple weeks. Keep your ec low, especially when doing multiple watering and always double check ph.

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See I'm having a hard time diagnosing everything independently. I believe I've struggled with perfecting the Canna AB off the bat, always seeing cal or mag issues in at least 20% of the girls. Making matters more confusing, there was salt buildup happening at the same time, so my plants were showing real funky burn/deficiency signs that had me believing a cal/mag issue was worsening.

I've tried the low ec way, and even with multiple feedings, my plants throw tantrums. I'm under HID in veg and flower, co2 at 700 ppm, and anything less than 1.2 EC has them showing deficiencies unless they're in the clone phase. How low do you go with the ec and what brand are you using?

gr866 said:

There is an excellent write up on Canna Nutes where the author states he uses 200 ppm for veg and 400 ppm for flower. He does stress that if you reduce the Canna nutes you have to add back the Cal/Mag, he suggest Cal/Magic from GH, I have been using it for years, love it.

I adjust my EC of the RO (2 ppm) to 0.24 (approx) before I add my base nutes, I use Cal/Magic to bring the numbers up. Again this is based on a 70 to 80 ppm per ml. So it takes me approx 5 ml/4 gallons of RO.
Then add the base nutes, Early flower - 400 ppm, increase it to 600 ppm at mid grow then began lowering it back to 400 at around 6 to 7 weeks then begin lowering it to around 200 ppm prior to flush. If backing off the Base Nutes you have to add back the Cal/Mag.
The remainder of the Canna product I use are Cannazym @ 8 ml/gal, Boost @ 8 to 10 ml/gal, drip clean @.4 ml/gal. I don't use Rhizotonic, I use the GH Rhizo product as I hand water it in weekly and not put it in the rez, spoils. I also replace Canna P&K with GH Liquid KoolBloom. I do add Epsom if I see any symptoms of Mag deficiency.
GR

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Thanks GR. How often do you find yourself adding epsoms, and how much do you add? I've also noticed that Cannazym has an NPK ratio, and since I'm not using it, I wonder if that is playing with the health of my plants since Canna considers it a 'must have' to be used along with their base. What do you do for veg? Multiple feeds per day? Size containers? T5 or HID? So you essentially start with RO, add Calimagic to .24 EC, then base nutes ranging from 200-400?

Thanks GR. How often do you find yourself adding epsoms, and how much do you add?
Since both A&B contain both Cal and Mag I will add 1 gram per gallon, dependent on the amt of cal/magic I am using.

I've also noticed that Cannazym has an NPK ratio, and since I'm not using it, I wonder if that is playing with the health of my plants since Canna considers it a 'must have' to be used along with their base.
I use it, it is good for root health and the health of the coco. Also use Boost and my next grow I will be adding the Rhizotonic to the mix, if I don't decide to use GH Subculture mycorrhizae used it this grow liked it. I add it once a week via hand watering along with SM90 for fungal gnats.

What do you do for veg?
I veg under T5's for the first few weeks then I added the HID and 315W

This pic was taken right after I transplanted from Solo's to 1 gallon plastic pots. 1/24/17

Multiple feeds per day?
Three to 4, I am at 4/day now, 1st at 2 minutes, 2nd & 3rd at 1 min, then last is 3 min, I use that as the daily flush.333333333

Size containers?
Three gallon Smart Pots but will be going back to my 2 gallon SP next grow.

T5 or HID?
T5, LED & 315W
My next grow I will be going back to vertical stacked and use the 315W as the upper light and 400W HPS as the lower light.

So you essentially start with RO, add Calimagic to .24 EC, then base nutes ranging from 200-400?
Yes except when adding Epsom, then its 1 gram per gallon, or if I want to add Cal/Magic with it I will use .5 gram per gallon Epsom and then add the Cal/Magic as needed to reach my .24 EC number.

You don't have to get run off but of that is the way you want to go, you have to drastically lower your ppm/EC. I feed 5 times during flower. My plants are in 3 gallon smart pots, vegged for 10 weeks. During the 5 feeds during each plant gets a total of about 1 and a third gallons of water a day and only get about a quarter of a pint of run off. During the first two weeks a stretch my ppm is the highest and by week 4 they get pretty low. I personally don't measure ppm because I don't see the point because I feed accordingly for that day and what the plant wants. Right now they are only getting 3ml a gallon of a and b heavy 16 bloom.

when I use RO water and feed with canna A/B @ 400 - 500ppm and add calimagic to 50-100ppm to condition the water(20% runoff), I always end up with horrible white salt buildup on the drainage holes of my pots, the plant look ok but after a couple of months I start to see calcium like deficiencies, but I can't see how when I'm supplementing with calimagic?

Then I just go back to my 100ppm tap, although I have found that if you feed high enough with cannaAB in RO water(in canna coir anyway) there's no need for any calmag

Xanode said:

when I use RO water and feed with canna A/B @ 400 - 500ppm and add calimagic to 50-100ppm to condition the water(20% runoff), I always end up with horrible white salt buildup on the drainage holes of my pots, the plant look ok but after a couple of months I start to see calcium like deficiencies, but I can't see how when I'm supplementing with calimagic?

Then I just go back to my 100ppm tap, although I have found that if you feed high enough with cannaAB in RO water(in canna coir anyway) there's no need for any calmag

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The calcium like deficiencies are coming from the excess magnesium you are giving them from the calmag. That is saying you are keeping your coco constantly moist all the time with no dry spots, but not wet. There is a huge difference between wet and moist.

Xanode said:

when I use RO water and feed with canna A/B @ 400 - 500ppm and add calimagic to 50-100ppm to condition the water(20% runoff), I always end up with horrible white salt buildup on the drainage holes of my pots, the plant look ok but after a couple of months I start to see calcium like deficiencies, but I can't see how when I'm supplementing with calimagic?

Then I just go back to my 100ppm tap, although I have found that if you feed high enough with cannaAB in RO water(in canna coir anyway) there's no need for any calmag

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If you use Canna's rates you don't need to add Cal/Mag, but with their rates I believe that you are giving them way to much N.
GR

stoned40yrs said:

5 years in coco and what I see is salt buildup isn't a negative except for people who want to make it one. Keep your coco wet and at the right ph and you won't have major problems. No need for runoff until your flush period in the last couple weeks. Keep your ec low, especially when doing multiple watering and always double check ph. Salt buildup is something you don't need to worry about if you keep it wet, right ph and lower ec.

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But don't you find your weed tastes horrible when smoked? And is lacking in flavor? I ask because when I followed a similar method I found that the plants looked great and worked great but had a very metallic taste. No one who was used to commercial weed noticed but going from a run when I had more time and always watered to run off I could notice a big difference in smell, flavor and taste.

As for the question in hand Ive got 2 words for you 'drip clean' from home and garden. Yes its expensive but at 1ml per 10L of water the small bottle lasts a long time. Since using this product I have had no issues with salt build up, nutrient deficiencies or burns.

I'm pretty unattentive, I pure 3L-6L in my 20 pant micro sog a day, this creates a lot of runoff that the coco sucks back up as needed, I find best growth is achieved when the next day all the water in the tray has been drunk and the pots have started to loose a bit of weight but far from completely dry.

I don't feel like my knowledge of the effect of salt build up has increased I just know that since using drip clean its know longer something I need to worry about and that my weed tastes cleaner than ever. At a party recently an old hippy said it was great to finally smoke something organic!

I also grow in canna coco, I use A and B and rhizo for roughly the first half of the grow at 1ml per L as plants are getting going and 2ml per L once flowers start to form.. No zyms, pk full strength during week 5 of 9.

1 ml H&G drip cleaner to every 10 litres of water/feed. Other makes probably do the same job.

Some bumf;-
"House and Garden Drip Clean works like a tiny magnet, collecting dirt particles and salt residues to ensure that your system, pipe work and grow medium remain clean and free of blockages and mineral salt build up. This will help ensure that systems don’t fail and plants are less prone to salt burn".

Yeah whatever symptoms I'm seeing aren't going away. I've tried .5 EC base and supplementing calmag. I've tried 1.4 EC base and no calmag. I've tried running off twice a day. I've tried running off only once every other day. I can't figure this out. I measured runoff just now and the ppms were the same as the nutes, meaning it's probably not even salt buildup. What in the world is this?

It's only happening on the lowest leaves, and only on fan leaves, never newer growth/node tips. It works its way up the plant, consuming the next fan leaves in line. It's a sort of crusty yellowy-burning of the leaf edges, which advances from yellow to straight rust that crumbles at your finger tips. Tops of plants are all green and not nute burned, but the bottom feeding symptoms never go away, they just keep advancing upwards as the plants grow taller.

Edit - And I've always used drip clean.

That's a lockout, my guess it has nothing to do with feed but it's ph related. You use pen or drops to test? Use drops.