Misbehaving Outdoor Clone

mushroombrew · Jul 13, 2017

OregonBorn said:
Now for the controversial part: WARNING THIS IS MY OPINION ONLY, and this is what *I* would do. I do not recommend that anyone else be insane enough to actually do this (wink wink, nudge nudge, now what I mean, know what I mean?).

I would consider using Avid (Abamectin). Yes, it is not approved for use on commercial weed in Oregon, but... it has been used effectively by growers for years, and it breaks down in UV light. If I was growing outdoors AND my plants were not in flowering stage yet, AND I had an active infestation, AND I was not a commercial grower, I would consider it. Mites can be nearly impossible to eradicate once they take hold. I have had more experience with spider and cyclamen mites, but they are very similar.

The great advantage of Abamectin is that it is translaminar. Meaning that it will enter leaves and move through them in a systemic fashion. It will also stay in the leaves that it was sprayed on and not move to new leaves on the plant. As such, I can miss parts of the leaves and still get full efficacy of the tiny little fuckers. I just do not process or smoke any fan leaves and only harvest and cure the flowers. UV light also breaks down Abamectin in a few days time at most (it has a half life of 4-6 hours). Once it dries after contact, it is safe to touch. The reason that Abamectin gets a bad wrap is that the label says, "harmful if inhaled". Well, duh! That is only referring to the spray itself.

Abamectin (also called avermectin) is actually a naturally occurring substance derived from soil bacteria. It is approved for a wide range of edible vegetable crops if applied at least a week before harvest. It is also approved for hops up to a month before harvest. Labs tests in Santa Cruz, CA that tested weed sprayed with Avid found zero residual Abamectin after 45 days of application. Cornell Univ. states: "Abamectin is subject to rapid degradation when present as a thin film, as on treated leaf surfaces. Under laboratory conditions and in the presence of light, its half-life as a thin film was 4 to 6 hours".

But the hysteria is out there in heaps about using this stuff, as there is with Raw Neem and Aza. Given the facts and actual evidence, this is what *I* would do, and not what I recommend anyone else do. Wink wink... If my plants were indoors, I would put them outdoors to spray, let them dry, and then move them back indoors. Avid and Neem/Aza are also most effective if applied 2 or 3 times at the intervals of the particular mites' life cycles. Spider mites in winter cycle every 7-10 days, so I would repeat at 7 day intervals for those. Broad mites have 4-7 day life cycles, so I would repeat in 4 day intervals. Russet mites have an 8-15 day life cycle, so I would repeat every 8 days.

BTW, I have lots of fresh raw Neem and Abamectin if you need any.

That's touching a sore spot here in Oregon. Abamectin was found in a bunch of "organic" rec flower. A product called guardian had abamectin in it but not on label. Was a natural product; or so people thought.
No wonder it worked so well.

Yes it works. Yes it breaks down in UV. After 45 days post app tested zero.(ran pesticide panel) I wanted to know so ran a test.

Lots of resistant mites out there. You are supposed to switch products.
Spary Avid. Then Floramite. Then Avid.

But on a food type crop this is very controversial. I will say it works.

PDX Dopesmoker · Jul 14, 2017

OK, I've got more pictures of the plant at a wider scale

This is about the top 12" I labeled the blade count on a few of the fans attached to the main stem. The 5 & 3 both appeared after June 25.

The newer foliage with fewer blades also shows substantially more visible trichomes than normal veg leaves. Of course thats not all trichomes.

This is what the newest leaves of any significant size look like

Here is a closer look at a shoot

I have closeup photos of this plant from July 4 when I was trying to figure it out it's new growth pattern and they show the little oblong off-white blobs too. There isn't too many of them though so I guess I didn't really notice them or passes then off as dust, but seeing it again makes me wonder if maybe the heatwave connection is just coincidence or maybe the bugs really like hot weather and they got worse then? That would be a somewhat causal connection.

"Casually causal" should be a real phrase, it might work in this case.

PDX Dopesmoker · Jul 14, 2017

mushroombrew said:
You think so? they are a bit pointy on one end. The russets I've seen were oval. That would explain the stunted growth for sure.

In the 2nd of the 3 macro pictures there is one right near the shadow line which looks like some of the anatomical features of a mite could be slightly somewhat visible. Does this one look like anything to you?

mushroombrew · Jul 14, 2017

That leaf by the word "damn" has mites for sure. The edge curl at tip gives it away

mushroombrew · Jul 14, 2017

get a macro of that leaf tip.

PDX Dopesmoker · Jul 14, 2017

Here is same image with an unsharp mask applied

PDX Dopesmoker · Jul 14, 2017

mushroombrew said:
That leaf by the word "damn" has mites for sure. The edge curl at tip gives it away

mushroombrew said:
get a macro of that leaf tip.

No doubt about the mites there & I'll get that picture after the sun comes up

PDX Dopesmoker · Jul 14, 2017

mushroombrew said:
That's touching a sore spot here in Oregon. Abamectin was found in a bunch of "organic" rec flower. A product called guardian had abamectin in it but not on label. Was a natural product; or so people thought.
No wonder it worked so well.

Yes it works. Yes it breaks down in UV. After 45 days post app tested zero.(ran pesticide panel) I wanted to know so ran a test.

Lots of resistant mites out there. You are supposed to switch products.
Spary Avid. Then Floramite. Then Avid.

But on a food type crop this is very controversial. I will say it works.

Thanks, thats great info, I'm way further out from harvest than 45 days. Seems like I get mites or something on my plants every summer during July, but I've never used abamectin.

Ibechillin · Jul 14, 2017

PDX Dopesmoker said:
I have closeup photos of this plant from July 4 when I was trying to figure it out it's new growth pattern and they show the little oblong off-white blobs too. There isn't too many of them though so I guess I didn't really notice them or passes then off as dust, but seeing it again makes me wonder if maybe the heatwave connection is just coincidence or maybe the bugs really like hot weather and they got worse then? That would be a somewhat causal connection.

"Casually causal" should be a real phrase, it might work in this case.

This is the case with spidermites from what ive experienced and learned, they like arid hot environments. They do not like the higher humidity environments that the plants like during veg. In flower when humidity lowers towards 40-50% they thrive.

OregonBorn · Jul 14, 2017

Yes, I read about the tainted sprays and I am aware of the controversy. Though Abamectin seems to be less of a sensitive issue on this forum than Aza (the horrors of using Neem!) is, and that is organic and allowed in Oregon. There are also issues with overspray of miticides and insecticides on outdoor grows from neighbors spraying other types of plants that wind up in failed test results.

Switching sprays to avoid resistance varies. I find the best results with repeat spraying with the same stuff two to three times to be most effective. Then switch their diet to another spray type for two or three sprays. As in start with Abamectin x2, flip to Aza x2, then flip to soap and oil x forever. Mites cannot build resistance to soap and oil sprays, as there is no resistance to drowning. I also add a soap as a spreader/sticker to all sprays except refined Neem oil, and the soap also kills them on contact. I have found that in most cases mites are gone with a good double dousing of Abamectin though. The others are insurance, and preventatives. Must continue with preventative measures, if mites are visibly present or not.

The others are all contact sprays (including Floramite), so you have to get every part of the plant covered with them to be effective. So you have to completely soak them. I have not had the best results with Floramite myself (contact spray) so I do not use it any more. It is also really expensive. Abamectin is available as a generic under a dozen different brands, and thus far cheaper than Avid or Floramite (or even Aza) if you look online. The mix rate is really low too, so a pint lasts a long time. The Aza in raw neem goes off pretty fast as well unless you refrigerate it. None of these compounds should be exposed to heat or sunlight in the bottles that they come in.

BTW, PDX, have you sprayed your plants yet? The sooner the better. Do not delay. So not pass Go. Do not collect $200. If you do not have the strong miticides we use and list here, douse them with oil and/or soap spray to knock the numbers down in the meantime. With warm dry heat like we have had lately here, russet (hemp) mites simply go bonkers and multiply like mad.

mushroombrew said:
That's touching a sore spot here in Oregon. Abamectin was found in a bunch of "organic" rec flower. A product called guardian had abamectin in it but not on label. Was a natural product; or so people thought.
No wonder it worked so well.

Yes it works. Yes it breaks down in UV. After 45 days post app tested zero.(ran pesticide panel) I wanted to know so ran a test.

Lots of resistant mites out there. You are supposed to switch products.
Spary Avid. Then Floramite. Then Avid.

But on a food type crop this is very controversial. I will say it works.

PDX Dopesmoker · Jul 15, 2017

OregonBorn said:
Yes, I read about the tainted sprays and I am aware of the controversy. Though Abamectin seems to be less of a sensitive issue on this forum than Aza (the horrors of using Neem!) is, and that is organic and allowed in Oregon. There are also issues with overspray of miticides and insecticides on outdoor grows from neighbors spraying other types of plants that wind up in failed test results.

Switching sprays to avoid resistance varies. I find the best results with repeat spraying with the same stuff two to three times to be most effective. Then switch their diet to another spray type for two or three sprays. As in start with Abamectin x2, flip to Aza x2, then flip to soap and oil x forever. Mites cannot build resistance to soap and oil sprays, as there is no resistance to drowning. I also add a soap as a spreader/sticker to all sprays except refined Neem oil, and the soap also kills them on contact. I have found that in most cases mites are gone with a good double dousing of Abamectin though. The others are insurance, and preventatives. Must continue with preventative measures, if mites are visibly present or not.

The others are all contact sprays (including Floramite), so you have to get every part of the plant covered with them to be effective. So you have to completely soak them. I have not had the best results with Floramite myself (contact spray) so I do not use it any more. It is also really expensive. Abamectin is available as a generic under a dozen different brands, and thus far cheaper than Avid or Floramite (or even Aza) if you look online. The mix rate is really low too, so a pint lasts a long time. The Aza in raw neem goes off pretty fast as well unless you refrigerate it. None of these compounds should be exposed to heat or sunlight in the bottles that they come in.

BTW, PDX, have you sprayed your plants yet? The sooner the better. Do not delay. So not pass Go. Do not collect $200. If you do not have the strong miticides we use and list here, douse them with oil and/or soap spray to knock the numbers down in the meantime. With warm dry heat like we have had lately here, russet (hemp) mites simply go bonkers and multiply like mad.

I sprayed with tincture a few hours before dawn last night, but didn't manage to get any more photos this morning. I should probably add some oil or soap to what I'm spraying.

mushroombrew · Jul 15, 2017

PDX Dopesmoker said:
I sprayed with tincture a few hours before dawn last night, but didn't manage to get any more photos this morning. I should probably add some oil or soap to what I'm spraying.

Add soap always. Be prepared to lose that plant. It's a long way to harvest and mites have a habit of sticking around and flairing up. Definitely move it away from the others.

How about some predators?

OregonBorn · Jul 15, 2017

With mites you have to think 100% kill ratio. No compromise. I spray my MJ plants with Avid, Neem/Aza, oil, and soap. I also spray the surrounding areas (non-edible garden plants) with Talstar, which has a tested 100% contact instant kill rate for mites. I spray Talstar on the lawns, the greenhouse, indoor and cloning grow areas, and any ornamental plants near my grows that may be hosts for mites. Do not spray Talstar on your weed, or on anything that you may eat.

Yes, I am a death fanatic when it comes to mites, but I have no use for anything less than 100% effective. You have to think complete eradication, not compromise. You also have to spray any potential mite host plants near your grows, and the surrounding areas. And even consider using soil drenches. Otherwise they will just keep coming back.

PDX Dopesmoker · Jul 19, 2017

I got this photo of a two spotted spider mite and the damage it causes

After getting this photo I looked in my inventory of old stuff and found ye olde neem spray which I hadn't used since I heard the CHS rumor, its a few years old. I effectively eliminated spider mites last summer using my alcohol spray, but I what I have now on that one plant seems more severe. I'm still thinking about culling it, but the buzz on that one is just perfect, so I didn't do that yet. It continues to throw those 3 bladed things. I looked through the board a bunch for similar cases and saw this and that about heat treatments and spraying aspirin and tons of other neat stuff.

OregonBorn · Jul 19, 2017

If you have raw neem oil, the aza in there goes off after 6 months. If it is refined neem, it will last a long time. With refined neem, they say not to add a soap spreader to it. Reasons not stated. Spider mites are also a big problem on Cannabis. You seem to have a spectrum of mites there.

IMO you are moving way too slow on this. Solution: SPRAY! SPRAY SPRAY! YESTERDAY! Aza, Avid or something potent. None of this mild weenie save the world crap. Also in the meantime quarantine that plant. Or do nothing and live with the mite damage, which will only get worse, and fast.

Good that you reminded me though, to spray my plants with raw Neem oil tonight. No sign of mites or PM, the perfect time to spray. Neem is best sprayed in the evening to be more effective longer, as the aza degrades rapidly in UV light.

PDX Dopesmoker · Jul 19, 2017

I applied the neem just after sundown, on all of my plants. The neem was the refined stuff & the spot I store it in is dark and never goes over 68ºF & it was from 2015 so not all that old. It certainly smelled like it had retained it's potency. Unless I get a bunch of males in my seed plants I'll end up having to cull some females anyway so I'm still on the fence about ditching this one. It has been segregated from the others by about 10' since last week, but I saw a photo showing how mites hitchhike on flies so I thought I should spray everything as a preventative measure now and save the rest of the alcohol spray for later if I need something that I think is safer to spray around flowers.
Alcohol seems to do a pretty kick ass job on spider mites, kinda makes me wonder about drinking so much myself.

OregonBorn · Jul 20, 2017

Drunken mites... is that where they dissolve?

The refined neem cannot really go off, unless it goes rancid. The aza has been removed, so there is nothing left to go off. The main action of refined neem is the oil which coats and smothers them like ag oils. Similar action as the alcohol that drowns them. Also the soap sprays drown them by lowering the surface tension of water. No resistance to any of these actions too, so you can use them as often as you want. But they are all contact sprays.

PDX Dopesmoker · Jul 21, 2017

OregonBorn said:
Drunken mites... is that where they dissolve?

The refined neem cannot really go off, unless it goes rancid. The aza has been removed, so there is nothing left to go off. The main action of refined neem is the oil which coats and smothers them like ag oils. Similar action as the alcohol that drowns them. Also the soap sprays drown them by lowering the surface tension of water. No resistance to any of these actions too, so you can use them as often as you want. But they are all contact sprays.

Thanks for pointing out that the active ingredient had been removed from the product I was using, I wouldn't have noticed until too late otherwise. It seems kind of retarded that the azadirachtin was removed, but I guess there is some reason for it. Shelf life maybe?
Aza why I was using the product to begin with. I guess I'll have to go shopping for some better quality spray.

PDX Dopesmoker · Jul 21, 2017

OK nevermind I culled that one. I found three more seed plants with female preflowers so it looks like I'll have no issue filling all my available space with decent plants. I don't need any troublemakers. She smelled pretty good as a threw her dead body off the balcony, but thats the last of her for now anyway. A friend of mine is holds that clone so I can get it back whenever and I have 2 females of now of the GG4 cross of the same strain so dankness aplenty is on the way (I hope)

OregonBorn · Jul 21, 2017

PDX Dopesmoker said:
Thanks for pointing out that the active ingredient had been removed from the product I was using, I wouldn't have noticed until too late otherwise. It seems kind of retarded that the azadirachtin was removed, but I guess there is some reason for it. Shelf life maybe?
Aza why I was using the product to begin with. I guess I'll have to go shopping for some better quality spray.

Yes, Neem has many guises. The base is pressed raw unrefined Neem oil with everything in there. Then there is refined neem oil which has about 10 different names, including Neem oil, 70% Neem oil, Neem oil extract, Triple Action Neem oil, yadda yadda. Refined neem oil has had the azadirachtin removed by an alcohol removal process. Several reasons for the removal, one being that refined neem is easier to spray, another being that the azadirachtin has a short shelf life in raw neem oil (6 months), and they also remove the azadirachtin to make organic azadirachtin sprays, leaving the refined neem. There is also neem cake and other neem products.

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