Tea/Foliar ingredients - best practices?

Microbeman said:

Something we did on our farm to try to prevent fungal pathogens like botrytis and powdery mildew was to apply an extract of Knot Weed concentrated watery extract once or twice during peak times for fungal activity.

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Where would I obtain the knot weed extract and what ratio should be used for concentrate and water? I'm finding it online, but mainly in powder form for human botanical medicine, is that the right stuff? All else I can find is in tincture form. Just to be sure I'm not misunderstanding your wording, this is for foliage spraying right?
Thanks for your time, I'm here in the pnw, and new pm remedies are nice to know.

Phenome said:

Where would I obtain the knot weed extract and what ratio should be used for concentrate and water? I'm finding it online, but mainly in powder form for human botanical medicine, is that the right stuff? All else I can find is in tincture form. Just to be sure I'm not misunderstanding your wording, this is for foliage spraying right?
Thanks for your time, I'm here in the pnw, and new pm remedies are nice to know.

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Informational pdf, if you can get the dang link to work
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...ghrMA4&usg=AFQjCNGBCPajaWUMV6XG_lb9zpL2JNsEVQ

We made our own Knot Weed extract. It typically grows along railway tracks and fields. It is everywhere in the PNW.

Thanks hyposomniac, sadly I can't get the link to work.
Thanks microbe man for the response

DocTim420 said:

I have been seeking information that compares the properties of kelp meal with both liquid and powdered kelp extracts. Arguments abound that one is better than the others--but I am unable to find any studies/research to support the conclusions from the "bunch of posts covering this". (Reading things on the internet does not make it "true").

Which source of "kelp" is superior for containerized gardening? Meal, liquid, or powder extract?

Kelp meal is processed (since the end product is not in the form of "seaweed"), preferred liquid extracts are "cold processed", and dry powder extracts are processed using Potassium Hydroxide. So all three products are not "in their natural seaweed state"--but all three have received the OMRI/NOP stamp of approval.

There is no debate that "seaweed" contains 60 trace minerals, growth hormones, cytokinins, auxins, and gliberillins...as well as amino acids, enzymes and simple and complex carbohydrates.

But there is a debate as to which form of "seaweed" is "superior", I would like to read what the guys wearing lab coats with pocket protectors have to say.

Or....do all three have a place and purpose in our gardens, since at the end of the day, all three are basically "the same"?

Seaweed Extract Study: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Wajahatullah_Khan/publication/225338767_Seaweed_Extracts_as_Biostimulants_of_Plant_Growth_and_Development/links/0912f50c0ea222a6af000000.pdf

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I do believe that Coot posted quite a lot of research on this subject.
You could try a search.

My point of view, you could say is limited because I've not tried every brand out there. Using straight powdered kelp meal causes a long delay in a liquid of bacterial/archaeal division and fungal growth as I've observed but it does after a time provide nutrient/food to these microbes.

When I used liquid kelp and soluble meal, this delay was highly increased.

The kelp meal I use has not been processed. It is harvested, dried, shredded/ground and put in a 50 pound sack. It is intended for animal feed. This is the type being referred to by Coot and others saying it is superior to processed extract.

You may not find information from men in white coats but you may find changes which take place through processing. I used to use a white coat but now use an apron with blue polka dots

Phenome said:

Where would I obtain the knot weed extract and what ratio should be used for concentrate and water? I'm finding it online, but mainly in powder form for human botanical medicine, is that the right stuff? All else I can find is in tincture form. Just to be sure I'm not misunderstanding your wording, this is for foliage spraying right?
Thanks for your time, I'm here in the pnw, and new pm remedies are nice to know.

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Regalia

LOl...polka dot apron, I wear white painter bib overalls in my "lab".

Most of what I read by Coot thus far seems to be rather economical when it comes to peer review type science--but rather abundant with personal observations and his "ideology". Logically, I bend more with the "scientific skepticism" crew when it comes to empirical claims...(skeptical philosophy + critical thinking + science methodology - ideology).

BTW, the studies I read where "raw kelp" was used for agriculture (as you described), they observed high salt concentrations with a high degree of variability in elemental/property analysis. Whereas studies of kelp concentrates (liquid & powder) seem to be more consistent in their analysis--just wondering what exactly does "kelp meal" have that "kelp concentrates" don't...and is it worth the additional cost (time/money).

My goal for product selection in my containerized garden is having "consistent quality"--not "variability", with "cost/time benefit" being the final determining factor. IMO, either you have more "money" than "time"--or you have more "time" than "money". I shy away from tasks that require hours of my work to save a few pennies.

So I guess the short answer is: There are no comparative studies/research comparing kelp meal (1-0-2), powder concentrates (0-0-17), and liquid concentrates (0.10-0-0.44). I do know the heavy metal PPM are very dissimilar (kelp meal has the greatest)....and 200 lbs of seaweed is required to produce 1 lb of powder concentrate. I calculate the powder concentrate to be around 8 times the concentration than plain ole' meal (not to mention zero wait period with concentrates--no weeks of soil cooking or 24 hour wait to brew a tea...time is money). Am I missing something?

Kelp Meal: http://agr.wa.gov/PestFert/Fertilizers/FertDB/prodinfo.aspx?pname=212
Powder Concentrate: http://agr.wa.gov/pestfert/fertilizers/fertdb/prodinfo.aspx?pname=6808
Liquid Concentrate: http://agr.wa.gov/PestFert/Fertilizers/FertDB/prodinfo.aspx?pname=3445

I would not wish to use either of these products (that you linked) personally. I cannot possibly see how 200 pounds would be needed to produce a pound of what I use. As stated the kelp meal I use is just harvested, dried, ground and bagged.

Most has been typically dried in the sun but some companies now use blowers (driers).

This is what I used when on the farm http://www.ultra-kelp.com/
Now we use; http://tidalorganics.com/ - because of local availability.

Analysis shows 2 - 4% sodium

The first website gives little info. They are just a farm based family business. [neither website sells product]

Re;

and is it worth the additional cost (time/money).

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I'm unsure what you mean here. Kelp meal is way cheaper and easy to use. (50 pounds - $55 to $85 CAD)

'Cooking soil' is a fool's errand if you ask me. I've never engaged. If you use kelp in any form in CT you need to brew longer than 24 hours. If making botanical tea or FPE, then there are variances from 2 hours to 60+ days.

[Why would one decide to not 'cook soil' if using a concentrate?]

What are you calling heavy metals (BTW more extensive test results would be better)? There are 2 in your links (that I noted); lead & mercury. However other necessary metals are all but wiped out in the concentrate.

One way I look at it which you may differ with; If I require medicinal remedy from cannabis, I'd rather have the use of the whole plant, than a pill which some company produced. Same with poppy pods rather than analgesic pills. Same with dandelion root or someone's extract or pills > on to green tea, real living probiotics, etc.

When you talk about time = money a lot depends on what you are doing and how big your gardening project is. If growing a commercial garden, then putting in the initial effort running irrigation lines, mixing in lots of long lasting components and slow release minerals/nutrients/organic matter, seeding companion clover (or?), seeding predator insects, inoculating trichoderma; etc etc etc. > all pays off with much less work over the years.

If growing in little pots then certainly the bottled up ready to go stuff is likely more cost effective.

If I locate any relevant studies I'll let you know.

I respect your ideology, and if your objectives were the same as mine, then I would blindly do the same. But I have this silly "scientific skepticism" ailment....

As we both know, "simple logic" sometimes can lead one down a wrong path. Example, one would think that a "whole plant" (say a fully grown/mature leafy vegetable) will have a greater concentration of phytonutrients than say a 10 day old seedling. But if one investigates, one will find that leafy green seedlings (aka microgreens) have a greater concentration of phytonutrients than fully developed, mature greens--some by a factor of 100. The numbers told the tale...which is what I am seeking here, a comparative research of seaweed products.

Setting aside all personal ideology--and using one's skepticism, critical thinking and scientific methodology, what specifically are the chemical/property/elemental differences between the three kelp products? Certainly things are in one that are not in the other--but what and how much?

Sorry if I seem persistent but I am not challenging one's growing technique or suggesting one is superior over another (which is a topic I can really care less about)--rather my inquiry is 100% empirical in nature. I believe if one's ideologies are strong and well founded, then questions should NOT be interpreted as a threat or an opposition to what they believe in. Said differently, no reason to embrace science that supports one's belief, while at the same time--ignoring all science which contradicts same.

My inquiry is really sourced to the "how much question": By adding x amount of Product Y, it will provide approximately ___________ amount of ______________ (trace minerals, growth hormones, cytokinins, auxins, and gliberillins, amino acids, enzymes, simple and complex carbohydrates, etc).

For purposes of seed inoculation, too much kelp concentrate will fucks things up! That I will guarantee...lol. But if you use the right amount, your efforts will be blessed with early germination and super healthy seedlings. This I know, but how much is "too much" when I source my seaweed inoculate from kelp meal?

What are the PPMs of goodness in a typical "kelp tea"? How much of the same goodness is available in kelp concentrate? How much kelp meal is "residual" (remains behind in the soil and available for next growing season)? Cost analysis--(ppm/$). Those kind of things...

Damn, sometimes I hate having this inquisitive/skeptical ailment...lol.

The trouble is, you left out all empirical observations and comments and concentrated on the anecdotal and parabolic instead.

You said nothing back about the preparation; > the 200 lbs - 1 lb

Nothing about the metals
Nothing about what might be lost in the processing
Nothing about my direct microscopy observations
The analysis provided on the link.

But if you use the right amount, your efforts will be blessed with early germination and super healthy seedlings.

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Is the closest you came to being empirical

My use of kelp meal is only for CT recipes (very occasionally) or mixed in soil (extensively for years)

I do not use the botanical teas with kelp. I just mentioned them.

If you are growing with living soil everything is not a strict formula. Testing will not necessarily reveal what you think. This is because there are all kinds of enzymes, proteins, organic acids, amino acids and complex carbohydrates coming from a gazillion sources. (see my thread on root exudates)

If you are growing using basic hydro (applied to soil/soilless) then then you can apply your strict formulae.

BTW your example still involved an unprocessed plant, which is exactly what I was getting at. In agreement; e.g. Leaves from a young cannabis plant produce better 'juice'. The 'whole plant' term was more figurative to unmolested chemically (dandelion root; poppy pods, etc.)

Good luck nailing it down.

No desire to argue...just asking a few question about kelp products, and if you are offended--then I am sorry.

If you notice, I never stated my preference or suggested concentrate is superior or kelp meal is inferior, just stated some observations. BTW, the source of my 200:1 statement is from here--https://www.groworganic.com/maxicrop-kelp-extract-lb.html

Now you have me wondering, how many pounds of seaweed is required to make a pound of kelp meal? Is it 1:1? or 20:1?

Microbeman said:

I would not wish to use either of these products (that you linked) personally. I cannot possibly see how 200 pounds would be needed to produce a pound of what I use. As stated the kelp meal I use is just harvested, dried, ground and bagged.

Most has been typically dried in the sun but some companies now use blowers (driers).

This is what I used when on the farm http://www.ultra-kelp.com/
Now we use; http://tidalorganics.com/ - because of local availability.

Analysis shows 2 - 4% sodium

The first website gives little info. They are just a farm based family business. [neither website sells product]

Re;

I'm unsure what you mean here. Kelp meal is way cheaper and easy to use. (50 pounds - $55 to $85 CAD)

'Cooking soil' is a fool's errand if you ask me. I've never engaged. If you use kelp in any form in CT you need to brew longer than 24 hours. If making botanical tea or FPE, then there are variances from 2 hours to 60+ days.

[Why would one decide to not 'cook soil' if using a concentrate?]

What are you calling heavy metals (BTW more extensive test results would be better)? There are 2 in your links (that I noted); lead & mercury. However other necessary metals are all but wiped out in the concentrate.

One way I look at it which you may differ with; If I require medicinal remedy from cannabis, I'd rather have the use of the whole plant, than a pill which some company produced. Same with poppy pods rather than analgesic pills. Same with dandelion root or someone's extract or pills > on to green tea, real living probiotics, etc.

When you talk about time = money a lot depends on what you are doing and how big your gardening project is. If growing a commercial garden, then putting in the initial effort running irrigation lines, mixing in lots of long lasting components and slow release minerals/nutrients/organic matter, seeding companion clover (or?), seeding predator insects, inoculating trichoderma; etc etc etc. > all pays off with much less work over the years.

If growing in little pots then certainly the bottled up ready to go stuff is likely more cost effective.

If I locate any relevant studies I'll let you know.

Click to expand...

I have a question about Seaweed, and I think I can get some excellent answers from you.

I live near the beach, and I can easily collect the seaweed that
collects after tidal swings and or storms. At the moment I cant give you the exact varieties that wash up. I was thinking of collecting some bucket fulls, rinsing as best as I can and Mulching it with some organic matter from the yard.
The thought was to experiment on my wifes tomatoes first to see
if its beneficial. Not trying to be overly scientific, just trying to use whats around me instead of buying products.

Also interesting to me is the possibility of adding some of the other Wash-a-Shore stuff. Crabs, Clams, and of course the life that clings to all the seaweed I collect.

While I am not able to do any empirical studies and I will probably not going to have stuff analyzed I was curious what you thought about it.

Without arguing the purity of the Meals and Extracts and which one I think is better, I think they are 2 different ingredients based on one thing. The Meal is great for building soils and the concentrate great for mixing in foliars or liquid feeds. Each is probably better at what they were intended to be used as. I dont see it as a one is better then the other scenario.

Certainly each company that collects and processes these things are important links. Not everyone is trying to make great product, but everyone is trying to make money which can cloud the decision making process. Buyer Beware at all times.

DocTim420 said:

No desire to argue...just asking a few question about kelp products, and if you are offended--then I am sorry.

If you notice, I never stated my preference or suggested concentrate is superior or kelp meal is inferior, just stated some observations. BTW, the source of my 200:1 statement is from here--https://www.groworganic.com/maxicrop-kelp-extract-lb.html

Now you have me wondering, how many pounds of seaweed is required to make a pound of kelp meal? Is it 1:1? or 20:1?

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If you read what I wrote, you will discover I was not arguing, nor offended. I only pointed things out. This is a mistake often made on discussion forums. I did not state during our discussion that one was better than the other. I made points about the analysis you posted, yet you said nothing of (the analysis) what I posted. I never once said you were wrong, nor was derogatory (despite the 'blindly' comment). I asked you questions left unanswered.

What has happened to discourse?

I suspect that the amount of kelp used for ordinary kelp meal would be closer to 1:1 as it is for most herbs. I am ignorant of whether large portions of the plant are discarded.

Levitationofme said:

I have a question about Seaweed, and I think I can get some excellent answers from you.

I live near the beach, and I can easily collect the seaweed that
collects after tidal swings and or storms. At the moment I cant give you the exact varieties that wash up. I was thinking of collecting some bucket fulls, rinsing as best as I can and Mulching it with some organic matter from the yard.
The thought was to experiment on my wifes tomatoes first to see
if its beneficial. Not trying to be overly scientific, just trying to use whats around me instead of buying products.

Also interesting to me is the possibility of adding some of the other Wash-a-Shore stuff. Crabs, Clams, and of course the life that clings to all the seaweed I collect.

While I am not able to do any empirical studies and I will probably not going to have stuff analyzed I was curious what you thought about it.

Without arguing the purity of the Meals and Extracts and which one I think is better, I think they are 2 different ingredients based on one thing. The Meal is great for building soils and the concentrate great for mixing in foliars or liquid feeds. Each is probably better at what they were intended to be used as. I dont see it as a one is better then the other scenario.

Certainly each company that collects and processes these things are important links. Not everyone is trying to make great product, but everyone is trying to make money which can cloud the decision making process. Buyer Beware at all times.

Click to expand...

I am unable to give you any advice beyond what you can give yourself for experimenting with these materials. Your idea sounds practical.

My only point about kelp extracts is that as observed microscopically in a liquid (water) they somehow retard microbial development. (not all brands examined) Even meal has a real slow-down effect. This does not relate to the direct plant effect/attributes of the product by itself.

Personally, I have experienced better results with less chemically processed materials.

If seaweed is just dried in sun and powdered can it be used for direct soil application ? For perrinial plants how much can be added ?
Usually these sea weeds have high chloride levels like 12-13% is this ok ?

Sorry, I believe your response was more "argumentative" and less of a "dialog".

Microbeman said:

The trouble is, you left out all empirical observations and comments and concentrated on the anecdotal and parabolic instead.

You said nothing back about the preparation; > the 200 lbs - 1 lb

Nothing about the metals
Nothing about what might be lost in the processing
Nothing about my direct microscopy observations
The analysis provided on the link.

...Is the closest you came to being empirical...

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I was and still not arguing "pro" or "con" (which would require empirical evidence), rather I am ASKING questions about 3 different kelp products.

You know--like these:

...just wondering what exactly does "kelp meal" have that "kelp concentrates" don't...and is it worth the additional cost (time/money).

What specifically are the chemical/property/elemental differences between the three kelp products? Certainly things are in one that are not in the other--but what and how much?

...how much is "too much" when I source my seaweed inoculate from kelp meal?

What are the PPMs of goodness in a typical "kelp tea"? How much of the same goodness is available in kelp concentrate? How much kelp meal is "residual" (remains behind in the soil and available for next growing season)? Cost analysis--(ppm/$). Those kind of things...

But it's cool, if no one knows specifically what the differences are...then I guess no one knows. Probably would be a good research project to compare greenhouse and field applications of all 3 kelp products and see what really happens to both the soil and plants.

DocTim420 said:

Sorry, I believe your response was more "argumentative" and less of a "dialog".


I was and still not arguing "pro" or "con" (which would require empirical evidence), rather I am ASKING questions about 3 different kelp products.

You know--like these:

...just wondering what exactly does "kelp meal" have that "kelp concentrates" don't...and is it worth the additional cost (time/money).

What specifically are the chemical/property/elemental differences between the three kelp products? Certainly things are in one that are not in the other--but what and how much?

...how much is "too much" when I source my seaweed inoculate from kelp meal?

What are the PPMs of goodness in a typical "kelp tea"? How much of the same goodness is available in kelp concentrate? How much kelp meal is "residual" (remains behind in the soil and available for next growing season)? Cost analysis--(ppm/$). Those kind of things...

But it's cool, if no one knows specifically what the differences are...then I guess no one knows. Probably would be a good research project to compare greenhouse and field applications of all 3 kelp products and see what really happens to both the soil and plants.

Click to expand...

Some people would call this playing devils advocate.
Microbeman is here to help, not argue.
Open a new thread about kelp...

MM.
Thanks for the Info on foliar tea from ewc.
The use of molasses in teas makes sense as the microbeasties would eat it but adding to soil? Would that not decrease the correct function of the microherd by offering easy food Instead of rock powders for them?
Lazy microbes?
Rodehazrd

Phenome said:

Some people would call this playing devils advocate.
Microbeman is here to help, not argue.
Open a new thread about kelp...

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Help? Ok--but let's assume Microbeman is one of the smarter guys on ICMag--and if he does not know how much kelp goodness (ppm concentration) is in a liter of "kelp tea"...and has no idea of the percentage of kelp meal residual left behind after harvest (available in the grow medium for the next growing season)--then, I don't see how starting a new kelp thread will solve these mysteries.

If one does not know the specific quantity (ppm/%) of goodness contained in a particular tea--then (setting aside one's ideology for a moment) how can one suggest it is superior to all other aqueous-like formulations?

Doc; I guess this is your interpretation and there is not much I can do about that. You still left all my questions unanswered.

You assume some 'facts' which are not relevant to what, I stated or operate with. e.g. (ppm) TDS and EC have been found irrelevant (mostly) to organics (molecules) because of electrical interference. I posted a thread with references some years back.

Just because you have some idea that some set of data should exist, does not mean it does. My assertions were based on microscopy and observations. The other statements were made by others.